Real reasons for war in Lybia

[eble 3]

Libya = oil = western attack

Syria = oil = ignored for the moment, probably awaiting someone to say 'hey save us'

Bharain = oil but already western aligned = ignored

Iran = massive untapped oil reserves = next?

All four countries had no problems firing on crowds of people protesting, at best we can say western countries intervening to save people is motivated by what they can get out of it.

Only one recently were we the west have been involved for no self gain was Afgahistan - a party lead by the US, that unfortunately doesn't seem to want to end.

Edited June 8, 2011 by Eble

[st_dux 26]

@vilas:

I have no first-hand experience, but the historical record contradicts your contention. The shortage economies of the Eastern bloc produced more homelessness and a significantly lower average standard of living than the economies in the West. According to this source, the average wait time for housing in Poland prior to 1989 was 20 years, with a total shortage of 23.9% in 1986. These problems were largely caused by a slow rate of construction (misallocation of resources due to a lack of market guidance), poor home quality (largely due to the Eastern bloc policy of dismissing workers in established professions through purges, often replacing them with hastily trained younger workers) and a large black market.

[demonized 20]

It's very obvious they won't intervene massively on the ground, mainly because of lack of available military means, and lack of internal political support.

latest news story in media ( maybe not to accurate ofc, satan media :) ) is that NATO will be deploying ground troops, this will be discussed thursday in the upcoming NATO emergency meeting.

[-martin- 10]

I have no first-hand experience, but the historical record contradicts your contention. The shortage economies of the Eastern bloc produced more homelessness and a significantly lower average standard of living than the economies in the West. According to this source, the average wait time for housing in Poland prior to 1989 was 20 years, with a total shortage of 23.9% in 1986. These problems were largely caused by a slow rate of construction (misallocation of resources due to a lack of market guidance), poor home quality (largely due to the Eastern bloc policy of dismissing workers in established professions through purges, often replacing them with hastily trained younger workers) and a large black market.

I can't confirm or deny that because I never lived in Poland in Socialist times but one also has to keep in mind the difference between nations in the Warsaw pact and Soviet Union, for example take a look at Poland’s history and what happened to it during ww2 and then compare this to Czechoslovakia which was pretty much untouched by ww2 in terms of destruction, so naturally the countries affected the most by ww2 had more problems after ww2 then Czechoslovakia.

As for Western countries affected by ww2, the story would have been a lot different if it wasn’t for Americas injection of money and the exploitation of cheap labour from poorer countries.

poor home quality + The shortage economies of the Eastern bloc produced more homelessness and a significantly lower average standard of living than the economies in the West + the average wait time for housing in Poland prior to 1989 was 20 years + a slow rate of construction

I can however speak on Czechoslovakia’s behalf:

poor home quality - Not true, the new block houses that were built after ww2 offered and still offer today a very good and decent standard of living which is un-comparable to the conditions of some council housing that most people in London live in today.

The shortage economies of the Eastern bloc produced more homelessness and a significantly lower average standard of living than the economies in the West - Once again there were no homeless in Czechoslovakia, even the biggest most lazy alcoholic looser was given shleter or a flat and basic education, as for a low standart of living, well there wern't petty cheap things form China or fancy cars like there were in the West but there was pleanty of food and when I say plenty I mean pleanty.

the average wait time for housing in Poland prior to 1989 was 20 years - In some cases true in Czechoslovakia because there was a large baby boom and couples with children were given priority over single men/women, but then again waiting for a council house in London isn’t that short too. Another factor that influenced this in the Czech part of Czechoslovakia is that gypsies from Slovakia were brought there to be “Integrated†and the Communists built brand new districts for them while putting Czechs in old housing or prolonging the waiting period for them, the gypsies of then devastated the districts and now most of them have been knocked down because the level of damage was irreparable. (No racism involved in this, just a stating a fact)

Once such surviving district is Chanov which is going to be knocked down or has already been half knocked down if I'm not mistaken:

http://blogs.valpo.edu/gjones/files/2009/03/chanov2.jpg

http://www.websters-online-dictionary.org/images/wiki/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/eb/Chanov.jpg/260px-Chanov.jpg

a slow rate of construction

I wouldn't agree with this completely because after ww2 my city doubled in size, while new districts were built but there was a shortage of workers because so much had to be built fast and also not enough material could be produced for all these projects that fast. But that’s because the Communists wouldn’t import if from other countries to help so I won’t defend that part of it. Edited June 8, 2011 by -Martin-

[ProfTournesol 956]

latest news story in media ( maybe not to accurate ofc, satan media :) ) is that NATO will be deploying ground troops, this will be discussed thursday in the upcoming NATO emergency meeting.

That would be a major mistake.

[vilas 474]

heh, you show me WEST cold war propaganda from Reagan about how my parents and i lived ?

i know how we lived, cause i live in Poland since 1978

i know how people who suffered in accident for example get free flat in 2-3 years (for example after divorce or after death of one person, children after orphanage were getting flat to start life etc.)

my mother get flat for free after 2-3 years of waiting when she was in emergency etc.

does book you quote says anything about almost free of charge holidays i had when i was a child ??? i was going to holidays ca. 3 weeks each summer for almost no charge , me and mother get almost free holidays in Tatra mountains in Koscielisko or Zakopane, which now cost a lot of money (2 weeks in mountains)

does your "source" say anything about that ???

of course noone was giving flats to singles

so it was not as you read from Reagan propganda books

cause we were also lied by Reagan propaganda, that when communism will fall, we will live like Dynasty serie (Carringtones), all will get Mercedes and big house, Lech Walesa told he will give everyone 100 000 000 zloty (money) and he will lower the prices

instead of 100 000 000 and low prices we get unemployment, homeless, low sentences for criminals, corruption, gangs on streets and need to pay for doctor ! and soon for university :/

Edited June 8, 2011 by vilas

[st_dux 26]

Nothing is free. The education, the healthcare, the holidays -- all of it costs someone money. The government can't just create wealth out of thin air. If you aren't paying for your own holiday, then everyone else is simply being taxed in order to pay for it, and this discourages entrepreneurs, hurting the development of wealth nationwide.

Really, I don't know why you aren't more pleased with the success that Poland has seen since its transition to a market-based economy. Economic growth skyrocketed in Poland following this transition, and now it has one of the fastest-growing economies in Europe. It is the only country in the whole EU that didn't suffer any drop in GDP during the latest recession, and indeed, the Polish economy continues to grow significantly each year. Average salaries are relatively high (second highest in Central Europe) and continue to grow. Unemployment is currently 7.1% (better than the current U.S. rate I believe) and is continuing to drop. How can you say that it's worse now than it was before?

Edited June 8, 2011 by ST_Dux

[vilas 474]

instead of saying such bullshit come here and try to live for average payment , when you need hire flat and buy all

400 Euro to hand per month

hire 20 square metters flat in my city for 300 euro (cost of 30 square metters flat in Warsaw is... ca. 80 000 EU)

try to LIVE for 100 paying for electricity and such like and food , try to have holidays in mountains, try to heal teeth etc.

i live here, don't say from maybe Ocean (i don't know where are you), how it looks here in my city, in my street, in street of my cousin

what a bullshit about unemployment, cause over milion Poles left country and took jobs from Brits, Spanish people, Irish people (making them problems)

also those statistics are made such way to HIDE unemployment by tricks like "you are not registered if you not fullfill something" etc. and such person is not in statistic as unemployed (for example person who refused to take dirty job for slave money or kids of farmers, or graduated in some period or someone who has "own activity" but cannot find contract,

statistics are polished to look better

and who is wanted in offers in papers (job offers) ? bitches, building workers , security, goddamn canvassers for 200 EU/month

try to find stable and secure job after finishing studies ...

you talking bullshit not knowing HOW we live for real (so called average Poles, not me , cause i earn better , haha 550-600 Euro per month as goverment worker with MSc ) and if not my girl's flat - we would have to live with parents still

only 6% of workers earn here ca. 1000 Euro or more

ca 30% of people live in poverty status

homeless people beg for food near railway station and etc.

Edited June 8, 2011 by vilas

[gammadust 12]

Noam Chomsky had some good views on this.

Chomsky, holder of one of the Widest Insights in Geopolitics I came across. Bear in mind he is a Linguistics academic.

Contrast that with the journalist's:

Comparing Bush and Blair against Obama, Chomsky qualifies Obama has "worse".

JPaxman's (interviewer) reaction: "Why...!?"

That wasn't even a sceptic "How is Obama worse than the previous?", it was fragmented mind and totally oblivious "Why are you hurting me? Why do you say that? Stop!"

Check video for his answer. It worths it! (keep in mind also we are talking about a Peace Nobel :pill:)

Also interesting his point on the "Fanatic Religious Belief" when mentioning the "Efficient Market Hypothesis" and how it dominated the Economics profession that gave birth to the $8.000.000.000.000 (trillions) house bubble, all while the Fed(eral Reserve) and influential Economists told us to ignore it. Chomsky ends with how different is this from dogma and religion.

Thank you for those links.

Edited June 8, 2011 by gammadust

[NoRailgunner 0]

In 1989 most people did know or felt that the economy of the Eastern Bloc went wrong. Of course people who demonstrated for democracy and a better life were afraid that some hardliners could call in troops/internal security and break down all opposition... Give a little respect to those people who had the guts to face their "socialist"/"communist" government/regime!

Now back to Lybia and the civil war, tribes and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's power.

http://libyacrisismap.net/main

[vilas 474]

Give a little respect to those people who had the guts to face their "socialist"/"communist" government/regime!

they were lied (CIA) and they lied to us too (promisses of how good and rich we will be)

instead of your "freedom" half of us would like to get FLAT and guarantee that won't lost job

people that wore uniforms before 1989 now wear expensive suits as "businesman, director, owner" etc. instead of Mj. Col. Gen.

oppressors were not punishes, were not shot dead, they just get position in business , banks etc.

and Lybia probably has similar situation , cause "not enough countries buy McDonald and Cola"

they fought not for us BUT for opening our market, for giving for penny our factories and land etc.

if we knew before, half of solidarity would join Militia

Edited June 8, 2011 by vilas

[*LK1* 10]

seriously, we are in 2011, we use internet and there are a lot of news source avaibles. is there anyone that still believe in the ufficial reasons that brings our western troops in war?

the biggest difference, from a criminal point ov view, between communist/nazi regime/dictators and the NATO are:

communist/gheddafi/nazi: they kill their people and foreigners.

NATO: they kill only foreigners most of the time. but for a good reason(trollface).

[-martin- 10]

Nothing is free. The education, the healthcare, the holidays -- all of it costs someone money.

Even now universities are free in the Czech Republic so don't say that they weren’t free before... And yes it does cost money, why the heck do you think we paid the state tax?

Really, I don't know why you aren't more pleased with the success that Poland has seen since its transition to a market-based economy.

You mean the success of 1 000 000 Polish and Czech immigrants (including me) that moved to London after the EU opened? Yeah I’m very pleased with leaving everything behind in my country and paying someone my whole wage for 2 rooms, I’m so happy that I’m jumping from joy every day, and all the Poles and Czech that came with me are also very happy.

Average salaries are relatively high (second highest in Central Europe) and continue to grow.

Why don't you move there and then tell me how satisfied you are with your relatively high salary of 300 Euros per month... Why do you think people run away by the thousands?

Unemployment is currently 7.1% (better than the current U.S. rate I believe) and is continuing to drop. How can you say that it's worse now than it was before?

In Socialist times unemployment was well below 7.1% in any country... So that's how I can say it was better and now it’s worse.

Stop your capitalist propaganda man, why are you trying to argue with us, what the hell do you know more than us who lived there and seen it with our own eyes? The closest you ever got to socialism is when you Goggled for it on the internet.

All you know are statistics, GDP and average salaries which are absolutely meaningless in reality to average people like you and me. I can count the salary of cleaners, managers and the president and say that on average people make £50 000 per month in Poland... absolutely ridiculous.

Can I ask you a question, why do you Westerners bullshit so much about subjects that you have absolutely no clue about? Is it because you think you know everything, is it because you’re bored, is it because you want to look important or clever? I really don't understand :j: Maybe if you’re so good at explaining how life was for me in my own country you could explain this to me too?

Edited June 8, 2011 by -Martin-

[vilas 474]

yes and i also think about emigration when i will finish one case in court (i hunt burglar and cheater/fraudant, 7 years i cannot punish guy and send him to prison, cause he paid bribes to court for 99% (he told me so) , i cannot take back my money from him, i even won in Strassburg, but cannot end case in Poland)

maybe in some months i also be cleaning tables in one of London restaurants (if things gone bad because of liberal prime minister which want reduce number of clerks) .. with MSc and experience in Ministry and Police but i cannot think about leaving my roots, friends, girl, neighbors, even my street which i love

this succes is bullshit, succes is for 10% of society, not for 90%

Edited June 8, 2011 by vilas

[-martin- 10]

this succes is bullshit, succes is for 10% of society, not for 90%

Exactly, and this is exactly what will happen in Libya, those who are poor now will stay poor or they will get even poorer but only a few thieves on the top will have success and live the American dream.

I don't trust Western media or governments anymore, too many broken promises and false hope... I’m not going to fall for this hype of false hope that the media is creating, NATO has done it before, USSR, Warsaw Pact, Yugoslavia, Bosnia and Kosovo... After a few years everyone will forget about Libya because NATO will be involved in another conflict and nothing will really change.

Edited June 8, 2011 by -Martin-

[vilas 474]

people in Libia may even not know how it turns when "regime changes"

like i said, previous opressor wearing military uniforms changed it to expensive suits and now instead of Comrade Colonel we say to them Mr.Director

they changed Volga to Jaguar and Lexus and talk about succes

waiting 10-20 years for state flat changed to paying 40 years credit in bank (and saving on everything to buy smallest flat)

for Lybians it may look the same way

old Kadafi officer will be "mr. director", he will change Volga to Jaguar

those who were poor will have to work harder hearing "you are not effective" etc

how much executions of communist opressor we have seen ?

ZERO

how much old bastards fat with beauty model-look girl we see now sitting in Jaguars and Lexus ?

ALMOST ALL of those old commie bastards

noone was punished, noone

just old "bad guys" are now "rich" and their children can afford to ride city with new SLK

Edited June 8, 2011 by vilas

[gammadust 12]

In 1989 most people did know or felt that the economy of the Eastern Bloc went wrong. Of course people who demonstrated for democracy and a better life were afraid that some hardliners could call in troops/internal security and break down all opposition... Give a little respect to those people who had the guts to face their "socialist"/"communist" government/regime!

Now back to Lybia and the civil war, tribes and Colonel Muammar Gaddafi's power.

http://libyacrisismap.net/main

February 15, 2011 - This is Hillary Clinton's response to those violations of Freedom of Speech (Mubarak switches Internet off on the 26 Jan 2011, Gaddafi does the same on 19 Feb 2011)

skip to 35s for the action, might be interesting to hear what she says though, it helps to put in perspective the whole story.

My29YT1T4R4

Aftermath (slightly graphic):

Ray McGovern, 71 year old peace activist, after brutal treatment by police.

As Secretary of State Hillary Clinton gave her speech at George Washington University yesterday condemning governments that arrest protestors and do not allow free expression, 71-year-old Ray McGovern was grabbed from the audience in plain view of her by police and an unidentified official in plain clothes, brutalized and left bleeding in jail. She never paused speaking. When Secretary Clinton began her speech, Mr. McGovern remained standing silently in the audience and turned his back. Mr. McGovern, a veteran Army officer who also worked as a C.I.A. analyst for 27 years, was wearing a Veterans for Peace t-shirt.

Blind-sided by security officers who pounced upon him, Mr. McGovern remarked, as he was hauled out the door, “So this is America?†Mr. McGovern is covered with bruises, lacerations and contusions inflicted in the assault.

[-martin- 10]

noone was punished, noone

just old "bad guys" are now "rich" and their children can afford to ride city with new SLK

Who would punish them, their Western friends?

[vilas 474]

hehe, is it not ironic

man beaten for "freedom of speech" on speech about freedom of speech (reminds me situation when man couldn't raise his own flag on pole)

hehehe

ironic

one old proffessor long time ago predicted following words (it was ca. 1990)

"you will have freedom, you would be able to choose, Cola or Pepsi, BigMac or Roller(KFC)"

yes, you can choose

but when you want other dish, you will get kick by "freedom" boot

[st_dux 26]

@-Martin-, vilas:

I am enjoying our tangential discussion on economics, but I believe that it may be dragging this thread off topic. I am going to start a new thread; I hope you will join me there to continue the discussion: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=120462

[-martin- 10]

@-Martin-, vilas:

I am enjoying our tangential discussion on economics, but I believe that it may be dragging this thread off topic. I am going to start a new thread; I hope you will join me there to continue the discussion: http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=120462

Good idea, I just hope the moderators don't close it :) Join you there when I finish my work

[vilas 474]

yes, right

agree, but i go sightsee another town for some days (hope to post in photo topic when i'll return)

[jblackrupert 14]

Something big is coming..... The propaganda machine is going into overdrive.

Mass rapes odered by Ghadafi. Containers full of Viagra for troops to do it.

Just another variation on the Belgian babies tossed onto Bayonets in WW1 and the Kuawaiti babies tossed from incubators stories.

P.S. If you have an erection lasting longer than 4 hours, call your dictator

.

.

Edited June 10, 2011 by jblackrupert

[spooky lynx 73]

I shouldn't say big... Just another symbol of evil is entering the scene. Soviet union, Saddam Hussain, serbs, Osama Bin Laden and 'world terrorism', now Muammar Quaddafi. Another excuse to renew an ammo stocks and practice for the armies.

[ProfTournesol 956]

I shouldn't say big... Just another symbol of evil is entering the scene. Soviet union, Saddam Hussain, serbs, Osama Bin Laden and 'world terrorism', now Muammar Quaddafi. Another excuse to renew an ammo stocks and practice for the armies.

Of course, Soviet Union was a paradise for human rights, Saddam Hussein was a democrat, Milosevic a kind of modern Gandhi, Osama Bin Laden and Ghaddafi are peaceful disciples fo the dalaï-lama.

Oh, i forgot Poutine and Kadyrov who are well-known defendors of the free press.