They better have female soldiers...

[max power 21]

You are getting pretty snarky for no reason. You assert that since this game has stylized running performance that women should be identical. I said if we are ignoring reality I'd like to see mechs, lasers, and power armor.

Or you could continue shallow and pedantic non arguments.

I really think you're still trying to find an argument in something I was saying. I was simply informing you that the characters in arma are not based on human averages.

Can you please find me the exact passage where I said anything about how females should perform in game, nevermind asserted any such thing?

[Yottahertz_ 51]

I fully agree with this, New Zealand has many female soldiers, And it will also support gender equality.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Yottahertz

[Dark6-6 10]

"1, It's about the average capacity of men and women respectively. If you'd have known/not ignored the basics of how the human body is built, you'd know that women have considerably less potential for developing strength, and considerable less endurance for things like the skeleton when it's under strain. Those things matter a lot."

I think there is a dramatic difference between individuals as well, and that is not modeled at all.

Thereby, since that isn't modeled, why bother with the difference between men and women.

---------- Post added at 03:52 ---------- Previous post was at 03:44 ----------

Honestly, I support the idea, just not the tone of the thread title.

[max power 21]

Thereby, since that isn't modeled, why bother with the difference between men and women.

I don't think I mentioned anything about women in that passage and I don't think I said anything about what BI should or should not bother with. I was saying that BI don't model the difference between individuals currently.

[Binkowski 26]

I saw Max Power post and I thought this useless thread was closed..

Alas, I was wrong :(

[Harzach 2514]

Iran is an Islamic state. Your points about other religions are moot. They wont have women in combat.

There are plenty of women in the Basij. Yes, it's a militia, but in a ground war it becomes a fine distinction.

I thought this useless thread was closed

It's not dead yet, Bink - it just smells funny.

[Dark6-6 10]

Maybe I'm reading into things too much Max. Apologies if I misinterpreted your earlier comments.

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[13islucky 10]

Greece isn't the Middle East, so in theory women soldiers should better cope with the locals that they would have in Afghanistan,for example.

On the other hand, there are quite a large number of people(officers, politicians etc) which oppose having women in combat.

Following that logic it wouldn't be unforeseeable to have a number of women soldiers, but it wouldn't be a very foreseeable thing either.

The plot does include an occupation, so it would be very possible to see women insurgents, possibly even GREENFOR volunteers. As for OPFOR I'm not sure how well Iran would have evolved in 20 years, so I can't say anything about them.

[max power 21]

I saw Max Power post and I thought this useless thread was closed..

Alas, I was wrong :(

It was reopened because of some news that was posted IIRC but I don't recall what that was anymore.

[scrim 1]

US averages don’t matter much since everyone doesn’t join the Army randomly anyways.

I did miss that women are only serving front-line air crew and at sea officially. I thought that "gun crew" was in ground combat. Nevertheless women are allowed in ground combat nowadays. And have served in ground combat despite official records not saying so for some time.

Defining frontlines is though nowadays too as has been mentioned. I wouldn’t know what to call a frontline since WWII.

You really have been drinking the "equality" Kool Aid, haven't you?

For starters, yes, it is your average man who joins the military. Second, it isn't about the strength a person has when enlisting, but rather the ability to develop strength during the training. And on that note, if a man has so little muscle mass that he can not outperform a woman by a long stretch, he is very likely to be suffering from some sort of sickness, which will immediately disqualify him from enlisting in the first place. And then we haven't even mentioned the ability of the male body and skeleton to endure hardships and weight for prolonged periods of time vs. the female body's and skeleton's ability to do the same.

And no, women are not allowed in ground combat. That they end up there in counter insurgency is because of the very nature of that sort of warfare, and not intentional. And no, records do say when they are in situations that somewhat resemble combat.

If you trully don't know how to define a front line since WW2, then you should take that as a hint that you know so incredibly little about military matters that you should avoid engaging in any discussions about the matter. To say that conventional warfare has ceased to exist is to admit nothing else than that you posses incredibly little knowledge on the matter. If you need an example, I can give you one of the last time the US had one: Back in 2003, during the invasion of Iraq. The front line in this case, as in any other, is the ground contested by the opposing sides. Then we have the Russian invasion of Georgia on 2008, the civil war in Libya, etc.

Plenty of front lines all around the world.

[Elena 2]

I don't get all this fuzz and argumenting. Why the heck shouldn't we be able to get a simple female soldier model, and let it be entirely up to the mission maker if, and how it's gonna be used, as nice decoy in the Barracks, as a Pilot, or in Combat... What or how would it hurt all you guys, you probably wouldn't even notice from any distance further than 5m away.

In my opinion all this "are allowed/not allowed" discussion here is completely useless because it's not BIS' decision at all, where these Females come to use, since 99,999...% of all missions are Community-made anyways. As with any feature in the entire arma series, if you don't like it, don't use it.

[scrim 1]

Because in my mind, and the minds of many others, even just another skin weighs heavier than a new model which will pretty much only serve to satisfy 0.000001% of all Arma players, trolls, and Internet white knights.

[Dark6-6 10]

I take issue with the "They better have female soldiers", not the "I hope we have female models" tone.

As gender norming ramps up, its a sore issue that people's lives are endangered in real life for the sake of political correctness in the name of equality while actually being anything but equal.

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Edited June 24, 2013 by Dark6-6

[kocrachon 2]

As a former service member, I wholly support women in the military in all roles.

On that note, I hardly think its priority that they MUST be in the game right now at launch. Female soldiers is more of an immersion thing, where as Id rather have more weapons and vehicles that have unique features. A female soldier adds some story options, but in the end will (likely) operated 100% the same way the male soldiers will, so it doesn't add a whole lot outside of immersion.

[Dark6-6 10]

As a former service member, I wholly support women in the military in all roles.

On that note, I hardly think its priority that they MUST be in the game right now at launch. Female soldiers is more of an immersion thing, where as Id rather have more weapons and vehicles that have unique features. A female soldier adds some story options, but in the end will (likely) operated 100% the same way the male soldiers will, so it doesn't add a whole lot outside of immersion.

Just curious, what was your MOS if you don't mind me asking.

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[motorizer 12]

Because in my mind, and the minds of many others, even just another skin weighs heavier than a new model which will pretty much only serve to satisfy 0.000001% of all Arma players, trolls, and Internet white knights.

If it's 0.00001% why is this thread so long?

some want it, some don't, but don't just assume that just because you don't want it everyone who does is a troll or a white knight, I'm certainly not assuming all those who don't are blinkered sexists.

arma 2 had plenty of stuff which didn't add much to a hardcore simmers gameplay but it was there

rigged and animated playable rabbits? are they seriously more important than playable females?

[ProfTournesol 956]

rigged and animated playable rabbits? are they seriously more important than playable females?

Female characters are much more complex to animate than the little rabbit my bad.

[Sneakson 1]

If it's 0.00001% why is this thread so long?

some want it, some don't, but don't just assume that just because you don't want it everyone who does is a troll or a white knight, I'm certainly not assuming all those who don't are blinkered sexists.

arma 2 had plenty of stuff which didn't add much to a hardcore simmers gameplay but it was there

rigged and animated playable rabbits? are they seriously more important than playable females?

I think it is in fact scrim that is the 0.00001% that finds women in video games so disgusting he will not hear of it.

Games aren't all about the pure gameplay. Anyone knows that. SSAO (something something ambient occlusion), rabbits... and women in the game would create more than "immersion" per se.

Female characters are much more complex to animate than the little rabbit my bad.

Still a valid point. Rabbits, snakes... if I remember correctly ARMA2 had playable chickens and whatnot with their own obstacle courses. Hardly fit for a hardcore infantry simulator.

[kocrachon 2]

Just curious, what was your MOS if you don't mind me asking.

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15T, Blackhawk Mechanic, which had me working with other female mechanics and pilots.

Dont get me wrong, I am not saying I don't think women SHOULD be in it. I just think its not a priority at this point in game development. I would rather we get more items that will directly reflect in gameplay. As much as female soldiers would be cool, the time it would take to update uniforms and everything to work with both genders would be a delay and a drag. I feel like it would be quicker to add a whole new aircraft in that time. Unless they just throw a female head on the male body... but I am sure most people wouldn't be happy with that.

That would require updating the engine to resize clothing for women, creating a new body, adjust camo, adjust the way the bodies sit and fit inside of vehicles and how they hold the steering wheel when they drive, etc etc etc. Unless all of that is already done to the right quality with civilian females. But even then, the military uniforms and how they hold the guns would need to be adjusted.

Plus wasn't the reason they werent allowed to hold guns in ArmA 2 is because they were afraid of people doing horrible things to women in the game and drawing negative attention?

Edited June 24, 2013 by Kocrachon

[scrim 1]

Don't get me wrong Kocrachon, I respect you for your service, but I think I'd rather go by what people with a background in the infantry has to say about this.

Sneakson: Alas, you have demonstrated that the step from lies and ignorance to childish insults is not a big one to make.

[kocrachon 2]

Don't get me wrong Kocrachon, I respect you for your service, but I think I'd rather go by what people with a background in the infantry has to say about this.

Sneakson: Alas, you have demonstrated that the step from lies and ignorance to childish insults is not a big one to make.

What does it matter what people in the infantry position think? Women ARE going to be in those positions now in the US Army as early as 2014. So it doesn't really matter what any specific person of a specific MOS thinks. Its going to happen. The real question at this point should be "Is it worth making other parts of the game suffer just to incorporate it"

[Dark6-6 10]

I think it would be nice to have as well. Have you played with the ghosthawk yet? Pretty nice.

The reason I asked about your mos is that it seems overwhelmingly to be opposed by infantry veterans. I think the practice of gender norming is a disgrace when addressing combat roles. Leon Panetta has already talked about "reevaluing" (read lowering) standards to integrate combat units.

I see that as offensive and the game showing women as infantry would be a reflection of that.

I am all for more variety if time and resources allow, that being said.

I will always play as a woman. smaller hitbox ftw.

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[Sneakson 1]

Nice strawman

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Hey, he's the one relentlessly and mediocrely arguing against having any women in this game like it's a big deal to him.

He’s calling 60-95% of the ARMA community trolls and white knights as if one had to be a white knight to believe in common equality.

Edited June 24, 2013 by Sneakson

[Dark6-6 10]

Hey, he's the one relentlessly and mediocrely arguing against having any women in this game like it's a big deal to him.

He’s calling 60-95% of the ARMA community trolls and white knights as if one had to be a white knight to believe in common equality.

Hey sneak, you make valid points in a lot of posts. Its easy to get frustrated when you don't see eye to eye on things you are passionate about.

Respectfully I hope we can settle our differences like civilized people by shooting each other sometime : )

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[Sneakson 1]

Hey sneak, you make valid points in a lot of posts. Its easy to get frustrated when you don't see eye to eye on things you are passionate about.

Respectfully I hope we can settle our differences like civilized people by shooting each other sometime : )

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I will agree and agree to disagree, as they say.

Anyways how come this poll is closed? Shouldn't be really.