ArmA 3 on Steamworks?

[T.S.C.Plage 0]

You said yourselves you knew that some people in the community wouldn't appreciate it. It just so happens that it seems 90% of this community doesn't like the idea of steam exclusive, perhaps the Dayz 'community' is the one that matters.

Yes, that's what I think. ArmA got f'ed in the arse by some zombies. Actually BIS worked well because they weren't humping on the bandwaggon so far which has changed with DayZ. Maruk must have had just dollar signs in his eyes as he was thinking to make this a standalone and therefore delay ArmA III. Bad business decision. Now reap what you sow.

Edited February 23, 2013 by T.S.C.Plage

[-Coulum- 35]

Hmmm, if Arma 3 is still having trouble after the huge success (and profits) of dayz I wonder how bad things would have been without DayZ. I don't even think we would be getting a game if not for the mod.

[celery 8]

I know that, I browse steamunpowered as well... Correct me if I wrong but it was just a case of jurisprudence in Germany when some guy gained the right to resell his license for some program.

It wasn't just a case of jurisprudence in Germany; it was an EU-wide precedent.

I'm just saying that this would be an unreasonable law that will most likely deeply hurt the industry if voted/applied. You have more chances to see it abrogated than every online digital retailers going bankrupt.

Yet somehow the game industry had survived and become mainstream before draconian ownership restrictions were implemented, and that is still the case with console games. If a business truly depended on the trampling of consumer rights, such a business has no moral right to exist and thrive.

No, according to me you guys are blinded by your hatred of Steam and willingfully occult the fact it's been the case on PC far before Steam was created.

"We guys"? Hatred? I have a Steam library of almost 200 games. And no, selling used games hasn't been "dead" far before Steam was created. Selling games was a normal way for a poor gamer to enjoy newer titles until all the new titles became bound to Steam or Origin around 2009-2012.

Those ToS also apply to every single digital retailer out there, not just Steam. Reselling games was always illegal, and could hardly be done on PC for any game people played online. If you found people gullible enough or who trusted you enough to buy used games they intended to play online, well good for you...

Your claim is completely baseless. Selling used games is NOT illegal. Selling used games is prevented by digital distributors only because they seek to profit from such a restriction even if said restriction was questionable and illegal in itself.

If your really want so bad to resell ArmaIII, while not anyless illegal, it's actually going to be easier as your ArmaIII key will be linked to one Steam account of your choosing. Meaning people will know for certain you won't use the serial key for yourself after you sold the account.

Okay, so of these three options

Arma 2 non-digital: give the copy to anyone you damn please and it's theirs

Arma 2 digital: give your whole account – or in BI store's case the installer and key - to someone else

Arma 3 Steam exclusive: give your whole account to someone else

how on earth is Arma 3 the easiest to sell off or markedly better than the non-Steam exclusive game?

Illegal as breaking the ToS you accept when installing a game.

Luckily in some parts of the world, terms of service that are clearly in breach of basic rights are worthless.

The used game market was always more harmful to the industry than piracy. People who buy used games actually show intent to spend money on the media, while pirates don't.

People who buy used games might never have bought the game at full price or at all otherwise. The money they give to the ones who sell used copies usually boosts the latters' purchasing power, so they in turn can buy more games at full price, and without the option to sell them they might buy less or not buy at full price. Pirates are an isolated group that doesn't directly give money to anyone. How are the pirates better again?

[Alwarren 2767]

Okay, so of these three options

Arma 2 non-digital: give the copy to anyone you damn please and it's theirs

Arma 2 digital: give your whole account – or in BI store's case the installer and key - to someone else

Arma 3 Steam exclusive: give your whole account to someone else

I read somewhere in an interview with Gabe Newell that they are planning on making a "used games marketplace" on Steam, so you can sell your old games.

[chortles 263]

bdfriendly, what an awfully long-winded screed that makes light of far more concise arguments by others :rolleyes:

Also, as I said before, you should have realized where Arma 3 was going over half a year ago. Hell, you should have realized this when Maruk started talking about catering patches to DayZ mod...

You said yourselves you knew that some people in the community wouldn't appreciate it. It just so happens that it seems 90% of this community doesn't like the idea of steam exclusive, perhaps the Dayz 'community' is the one that matters.

Remember what I posted about Steamworks actually being a selling point outside of these forums? I think Maruk knew that too... and decided that they matter even more than the DayZ community... the people outside of BI forums who would buy because it's Steamworks.

[metalcraze 290]

Hmmm, if Arma 3 is still having trouble after the huge success (and profits) of dayz I wonder how bad things would have been without DayZ. I don't even think we would be getting a game if not for the mod.

I don't think that's true. DayZ certainly let BIS extend the development time into 2013 that's for sure instead of an unfinished beta being released again.

According to Dwarden even before DayZ ArmA was selling fine. That and somebody from BIS also said that two first DLCs ensured that ArmA3 will happen.

[dunedain 48]

Your claim is completely baseless. Selling used games is NOT illegal. Selling used games is prevented by digital distributors only because they seek to profit from such a restriction even if said restriction was questionable and illegal in itself.

Those terms of service agreements existed for OFP as well as long before. It's not something the digital market created, just check your old games booklets if you have any... They grant you a license to use the program, not ownership.

People who buy used games might never have bought the game at full price or at all otherwise. The money they give to the ones who sell used copies usually boosts the latters' purchasing power, so they in turn can buy more games at full price, and without the option to sell them they might buy less or not buy at full price. Pirates are an isolated group that doesn't directly give money to anyone. How are the pirates better again?

Pirates don't show any will to spend money on their media. Therefore you really cannot mesure the impact piracy has on the market. However the used game market which mostly goes through retailers, and they usually only give your coupons to buy other used games, really hurts the market wether you like it or not... It's a fact not an opinion. I myself rarely buy games full price, but I always make sure it goes to those who actually made the game.

Yet somehow the game industry had survived and become mainstream before draconian ownership restrictions were implemented, and that is still the case with console games. If a business truly depended on the trampling of consumer rights, such a business has no moral right to exist and thrive.

The PC gaming industry was literally suffocating before the emergence of the digital market. As for your last point, cool story bro... I'm not into that hippie bullshit though, some lucidity on your part would be nice. You're saying you'ld rather have the whole digital market die than admitting it is objectively not possible to apply the same rules to digital and physical products...

Okay, so of these three options

Arma 2 non-digital: give the copy to anyone you damn please and it's theirs

Arma 2 digital: give your whole account – or in BI store's case the installer and key - to someone else

Arma 3 Steam exclusive: give your whole account to someone else

how on earth is Arma 3 the easiest to sell off or markedly better than the non-Steam exclusive game?

What do you mean by a whole account? Like it's a big thing, you can just create an account for that game. I know people who do it that way. And if you sell it, your "client" will know for sure you won't be keeping a copy of the serial key for your own use. So yeah in the end it's even safer than just buying a key from some random guy.

Edited February 23, 2013 by dunedain

[zopzodeman 2]

It is a most common mistake made nowadays to consider all change as an improvement, whereas the word is in fact neutral in that respect. Change can be for the better or the worse. Going Steam only is most definitely not a change for the better for the consumer's point of view as it involves relinquishing personal information and control over one's own machine to a third party. This increases the cost of acquiring and playing the game (cost being not just €€€) to an unacceptable level for those old school people who date from the time where people were instructed in reading - and language skills that enable them to fully understand the conditions imposed by Steam. It does not matter whether Steam asks € 0,01 for the licence, the other penalties involved raise the associated cost of the buy to a significantly higher level. My adaptation to that is very simple, I will refrain from the deal.

A company might know what is best for its own interests, but it does not necessarily know what is best for each of its potential customers nor necessarily act accordingly when it does. It has primarily a responsibility to its owners' and employees' interests which may or may not coincide with those of their customers. As for trusting it is good to trust and better to check up. Checking up on Steam results in trust being withheld. It is not worthy of loyalty.

Regards,

Sander

100% Agreed...

ANd other points:

Anyone still remembering the "good old times", when you got more than a game in the box? 500+ page manual (Falcon4 anyone?),keymaps,printed maps and so on ....?

Nowadays you dont EVEN get a box anymore...

I see similarities to the music industry....there we are also getting less and less value for the money, up to the point where you dont even own a physical copy anymore.

I would have had absolutely no problem in paying 80 bucks for a game that offers a good and readable PRINTED manual (maybe even with background stories?)

Now why should i pay 40 or 50 bucks (full price) for nothing than a game without even a DVD and a box?

I supported BI since OFP....I even bought that bug-ridden and incomplete (and not to say worser than the original) Carrier Command.

Sorry BI, you lost me on this one.

I wont buy ARMA3 from Steam.

[tekgun2 0]

I read somewhere in an interview with Gabe Newell that they are planning on making a "used games marketplace" on Steam, so you can sell your old games.

How nice of Gabe to allow me to do something I'm legally supposed to be allowed to do (in Europe anyway)

[zoog 18]

Now, there will simply be another Gaming Software Developer that is literally trying

to squeeze out the pocket money from 14yrs old kids with eye-candy and gimmickry!

So now Arma 3 will become a gimmicky game for 14 year old kids, just because it will use some Steam(works) features? Please take a deep breath and come back to reality. Developers decide what they do and won't do on Steam. Because many arcade games are on Steam does not mean a military simulator cannot flourish as well. Heck, even Digital Combat Simulator is on Steam, as are other simulation games.

[chortles 263]

I don't think that's true. DayZ certainly let BIS extend the development time into 2013 that's for sure instead of an unfinished beta being released again.

According to Dwarden even before DayZ ArmA was selling fine. That and somebody from BIS also said that two first DLCs ensured that ArmA3 will happen.

I'd look at antoineflemming's timetable for source of the pressure to release in 2013... by later August, Vespa was already talking about being proud of cutting features (!) so that Arma 3 wouldn't be a Duke Nukem Forever...

[-Coulum- 35]

I don't think that's true. DayZ certainly let BIS extend the development time into 2013 that's for sure.

I have to quote Dwarden here again but he said even before DayZ ArmA was selling fine. That and somebody from BIS also said that two first DLCs ensured that ArmA3 will happen.

Yeah I really don't know how DayZ has effected arma finacial or developmental status. For all we know arma hasn't seen a cent of the DayZ profits as they are all being diverted to the standalone. But I believe Dwarden saying arma would be fine without DayZ etc. was before Ivan an Martin were imprisoned, Dan Musil quit or BIS felt "without going Steam-exclusive, we would not be able to release Arma 3 in 2013.". My opinion is without Dayz arma 3 would have been fine if everything went according to plan - but things obviously haven't been going according to plan.

So now Arma 3 will become a gimmicky game for 14 year old kids, just because it will use some Steam(works) features? Please take a deep breath and come back to reality. Developers decide what they do and won't do on Steam. Because many arcade games are on Steam does not mean a military simulator cannot flourish as well. Heck, even Digital Combat Simulator is on Steam, as are other simulation games.

I believe DCS isn't steam exclusive though no? But I agree with your general point - arma will still be arma whether steam exclusive or not.

Edited February 23, 2013 by -Coulum-

[chortles 263]

How nice of Gabe to allow me to do something I'm legally supposed to be allowed to do (in Europe anyway)

That sounds more like "getting ahead of the curve on the work needed to implement a potential court result (which we can then spin for PR)“...

[Tonci87 163]

Hmmm, if Arma 3 is still having trouble after the huge success (and profits) of dayz I wonder how bad things would have been without DayZ. I don't even think we would be getting a game if not for the mod.

Or maybe they just moved a lot of funds and Devtime intended for the development of A3 over to DayZ.

I think that is very likely.

Just look at what Ivan Buchta is doing now, working on DayZ.

[chortles 263]

Yeah I really don't know how DayZ has effected arma finacial or developmental status. For all we know arma hasn't seen a cent of the DayZ profits as they are all being diverted to the standalone. But I believe Dwarden saying arma would be fine without DayZ etc. was before Ivan an Martin were imprisoned, Dan Musil quit or BIS felt "without going Steam-exclusive, we would not be able to release Arma 3 in 2013.". My opinion is without Dayz arma 3 would have been fine if everything went according to plan - but things obviously haven't been going according to plan.

Pretty much, not least since 1: the Greek incident was on tool of whatever it was, and 2: two months spent "inventory taking/strategizing" signals that the game (and if you do believe that the DayZ community is favored, then the franchise's future) was in trouble way before the decision to go Steamworks.

[Kuskov 1]

, Vespa was already talking about being proud of cutting features (!) so that Arma 3 wouldn't be a Duke Nukem Forever...

Which features? Hopefully nothing that was showcased at Gamescom!

[metalcraze 290]

I'd look at antoineflemming's timetable for source of the pressure to release in 2013... by later August, Vespa was already talking about being proud of cutting features (!) so that Arma 3 wouldn't be a Duke Nukem Forever...

Yeah but DNF was DNF not because studios had no money, they just couldn't stop reworking the game from scratch again and again. The result of butchering and rebuilding the game again and again is obvious.

For all we know arma hasn't seen a cent of the DayZ profits as they are all being dvierted to the standalone.

I doubt that honestly because here's some speculation. DayZ standalone was mostly finished before the development even began. After all almost all of its assets were already there. And if BIS indeed sold additional 1.5 mln units because of DayZ - that's quite a big sum of money, especially for Czechs. If 1.5 mln sales did happen and let's say BIS got ~10 bucks per each one - that's $15 mil. Besides if BIS was in trouble would they be able to develop 3 games at the same time without cancelling any? (at the time of ArmA3 announcement it was ArmA3 itself, Take On and CC - all are no small projects by any means)

[chortles 263]

I would add though that the Greek incident means that Ivan was impaired from both projects, not Arma 3... we know he was with Arma 3 for a month before it happened (see Gamescom).

[Dwarden 1125]

How nice of Gabe to allow me to do something I'm legally supposed to be allowed to do (in Europe anyway)

it's just not about the ability to resell the game

for example , You need unregister the original keys from multiplayer servers and deliver new key plus register it for MP again , plus if there is any online DRM then that too

simple looking change would need major changes in deals between service and publisher / developer (higher volume of keys for example)

it will create logistical chokepoint and stressful moments for tech support due to disputes (stolen accounts)

so the re-sale might be e.g. limited to only accounts older than 1 month and game purchase older than 3 months and become invalid if for 1 month if account email / password was changed etc.

so far none of the major online distributions allow resell of owned titles from customer's account

[chortles 263]

Reworking a game again and again? metalcraze, that's most of the wish list thread if taken seriously! Unfortunately "undoing Steamworks" would mean the same thing, it seems that the decision is at least a month old by now... according to Rocket the stand alone was pushed into 2013 by a decision to start from scratch, essentially.

[iceman77 18]

I don't think that word means what you think it means. You also misspelled it.

Redundant means "it isn't needed". Go learn something. Also, I didn't misspell it. :confused:

[nikiforos 450]

I believe that BIS should try to use a different strategy than the current one. The company should try to publish or mention any positive news to calm down the community. Maybe release some images or a video etc. it's up to them. This rollercoaster of emotions can't be good for either part.

[metalcraze 290]

So why not do it like the real life resell? Remove the game from one's account and add it to the other. After all Steam hides the "owner's" key (which I find to be really annoying) if it's a steamworks game anyway and you can't play the game if it's not in your account (which is like - duh). No need for new keys.

Reworking a game again and again? metalcraze, that's most of the wish list thread if taken seriously! Unfortunately "undoing Steamworks" would mean the same thing, it seems that the decision is at least a month old by now... according to Rocket the stand alone was pushed into 2013 by a decision to start from scratch, essentially.

Hey I wouldn't have a problem with Steam if multiplayer wasn't entirely connected to Steamworks.

For example Blood Bowl Chaos Edition has steamworks but it also allows you to play non-steamworks LAN/direct IP game. So when online servers are down (which does happen and one time it took several days when servers were on some major maintenance) I can always keep playing in MP although with no stats and team ladder advancement.

With BBCE I'm not treated like a pirate by the developer.

Edited February 23, 2013 by metalcraze

[iceman77 18]

Thus far, you have rebuked every single point with "you don't care", well here's something new for you, by behaving like this, trying to make a point by constant rejection of others, while not making any valid/genuine reasons to support your argument, you're behaving no better than a 12yr old on COD with a microphone. And to think I took time to write a thorough post to clarify things and only have people like you not only ignoring it, yet defacing it at the same time. I will admit that Steam is not perfect, but until you can tell everyone why is it the end of ArmA by using Steam, please keep your ramble off the table.

Uhhhh.. what? All's I said is that steam is unnecessary & that it isn't needed. Which it isn't. That makes me a 12yr old cod kid? I don't think so. Infact, I think that, all of the people who have to jump on the bandwagon of this "omg steam is soooo hip!!" bs are the 12 yr old cod kids. Cause you know how kids are... they have to keep with the times. I've played every game in the series without steam. seems to work just fine. :rolleyes:

Also, I don't need to make any valid reasons, I've already stated that steam is unnecessary (redundant). That's my reason.:confused: Seems the only rambling is being done by you. I used 3 words and you jump down my neck with ~100 words? Who's rambling?

Steam. It's reundant. Period.

Edited February 23, 2013 by Iceman77

[Kuskov 1]

The company should try to publish or mention any positive news to calm down the community. Maybe release some images or a video etc. it's up to them.

LOL even the release of the community Alpha wouldn't quell this Steam shitstorm, the community backlash is beyond control now.