Interface.

[liquidpinky 11]

Guess only kids, trend victims and old men like to have a break & look on a stylish interface system... :p

In defense of the old men, it's usually because we are wiser and better prepared so during firefights the only button we have to hit is our fire mode selector. The screen clutter doesn't matter as it is done out of harms way.

Screen clutter doesn't affect me anyway, one of the perks of having three monitors. :P

A fully customisable UI would be nice though, as in the ability to perhaps drag UI element to a position that suits us and the ability to change crosshair or pointer colours etc.

Really is a pisser trying to spot your crosshair or map marker with TrackIR sometimes, I have got into the habit of looking straight up so I can see the map marker's position at the bottom of the screen.

[Przemek_kondor 13]

Some replacement / addition to the current system (which is just bad) would be nice. I'm in the serie since CWC, and I use only few of number commands but still I have problems with them.

I prefer to have something on my screen and quickly choose correct option than read descriptions for the numbers (and then find the numbers on my keyboard at night).

[dmarkwick 261]

If I may approach these one at a time... :)

Against any screen cluttering with menu/rose/colored buttons etc.

Fair enough I suppose, if you don't like the look you don't like the look :)

- mostly they are distracting players from the actual situation

I find having to study my keyboard more of a distraction personally.

- some of those systems even break/stop/slowdown the mission while beeing activated (one can even say its somekind of cheating because the player has now a "bonustime")

That's implementation. There's no reason implement pausing into the game.

- design of such systems is mostly oriented on console gaming where players usually don't play with keyboad+mouse

I've found that radial systems work just as well with K&M, even better IMO.

- direct commands/orders are changed faster by keypress than through a radial system

Don't know what you mean there. Changed, as in rescinded? In my experience radial systems are very fast to use, and for me at least certainly faster than pecking my keyboard :) Ingame commands should be as fast & easy as possible to simulate the shouting of it IMO.

Better if BIS improves their context-sensitiv system and keeps the number system as backup.

I really dislike the context sensitive system. I get frustrated chasing commands up & down the screen, occasionally clicking on a grossly different command because it changed a fraction of a second before I selected it.

Plus, I don't suggest removing the numerical system. I agree it should remain. In that regard, an optional radial control system shouldn't impact on gameplay.

Guess only kids, trend victims and old men like to have a break & look on a stylish interface system... :p

Steady on ;) :D I cannot decide which group I belong to, only that I do NOT fit into "kids" :D

All I can really reiterate is that previously onscreen menu systems have worked really well for me. It doesn't take your eyes from the screen to do something that you should really be shouting or simply doing.

*edit*

Another bonus of a radial system is that it can, for some players, free up a lot of keys for other uses.

Edited June 14, 2011 by DMarkwick

[Alex72 1]

Rose menu can be very fast as ive noticed while testing some games with them. Keypress to bring the rose up and then click click click done. Even being able to assign some buttons on keyb so a combo of keyb press + mouse makes it even faster.

Ive been in the resistance against the rose in the past, but im not so sure anymore that its pure garbage. I dont have any problems with current system either expet for those some times where i have to look down and away from the game as the button presses are far apart. Also like DM mentions above me, the context sensitive menus wich sometimes are brilliant - they also lead to problems at times where you make the wrong choice as it switches when an AI for example runs in front of you.

So i guess im in favor of either one. If its the old current system then an overhaul would be good to make it slightly easier (read faster).

[EricM 0]

I would love to have a better integration of the high command system with the standard one and the colour team for better grouping of units.

We actually have 3 overlayed system doing their own things and not tied one to another.

High command should be default (even if you are just commanding single man groups at the start) with the ability to append/collapse/split groups.

Ideally I should be able to do the following :

- F1 to F10 keys = select units the usual way

- Shift F1 (or F2...)with selected units = Collapse all of them into the F1 (or F2...) slot and then make them controlable as a single unit/fireteam/colour team with their own chain of command.

- If I need to micro manage the units I can split the group again (Shift F1 again for instance) or get out of high command mode (which would actually be the default mode, even if it's only controlling single man groups at the start).

Something like this worked brilliantly in Battlezone or Homeworld years ago.

I would also vote for a cleaned up command menus... There are things that always puzzled me... like why the duplicate Engage/Engage at will but no "Land" command when in choppers, why do you have to order Stay low to have Copy my stance (or vice versa, can't remember right now...) etc...

Edited June 14, 2011 by EricM

[mattxr 9]

think BIS experimented with this once before.. now sure how it went

[CarlGustaffa 4]

BWOT Warning - read at own risk :D

Replacing the number system at this time sounds really bad. What if whatever replacement we got was horrible to use? Maybe it looked good on paper but turned out bad overall.

My main gripes with the old system (action menu and commanding number menu):

* Not enough entries to support new innovative ideas. We can't put new formations, flanking orders, or gear at the crate I'm pointing at action in there. It's utterly full.

* Hard coded. For the few open spaces there is, we can't add anything (afaik).

* Lack of information and interactivity. Target what soldier? Did I already target him by another unit (things may have changed since it takes me ages to assign this way). Pick up which M240 exactly? Why can't I select a unit, point at a dead unit, vehicle, or ammo box and order him to gear there instead of waiting for him to move there, then gear up? Why do I have to read the entries for color selection and assigns when colors would have made the process much quicker?

* Lack of consistency in many cases, especially actions are a nightmare. Open which door? Having to read every item in the varying list makes things take too much time. I want similar feedback like when I have a unit selected and point at a house, where I get house position and a graphical line trying to illustrate what I'm about to do.

For the 16 slot radials, the benefits and similarities are:

* Rather than being quasi grouped by abstract numbers, you can get logical key assignments that you make up yourself and make sense to you. F + RMB drag for Formations? Makes sense to me. Oh, the input system needs a clarification; it should differentiate between a key press and a key hold. A key press doesn't activate a radial, whereas a key hold (then it listens for an RMB drag) would.

* You could have several graphical layouts that makes sense for that specific purpose, be it square, diamond, circular (8 sides, 2 distances, og 16 sides), triangular, whatever. In the number system, everything is forced into a vertical list. Personally I don't find directions organized into a list very intuitive. Maybe vehicle interaction radial was 4x4 squares and lists, but formations listed in a circle (you know, left and right echelons, offensive and defensive etc)?

* The number system is fully based on text only, whereas a graphic based radial can be grouped logically, color coded, have tooltips, and maybe graphical elements clearly indicating what it is (should I use left or right echelon when I'm flanking right? How many new to the game have even heard of echelon formation?) - I think visual indication and tooltips might be of good use to the new players. They could even show the associated number code if available and consistent.

Examples of good consistency and context sensitivity:

* AI selected in vehicle, I for interact radial, then up/left for light - he turns his light on.

* None selected in vehicle, same action, you turn your light on.

* AI selected, point at light switch, he turns that light switch on.

* None selected pointing at ground, it's now greyed out as it doesn't involve anything with lights!

It doesn't take you long to learn that everything dealing with lights is interaction radial at a certain direction and inner or outer ring (if that was the looks). Similar to the number system, what you do most is what you remember, but I think that thinking of interaction feels more natural than remembering a number. And seeing a bright lightbulb in the expected spot is quicker than reading through a list where position varies.

Against any screen cluttering with menu/rose/colored buttons etc.

I prefer functionality, efficiency, and ease of use over neatness. If any good, you could set it up just the way you prefer anyway (such as everything showing as a list).

- mostly they are distracting players from the actual situation

How so? A good menu system would allow the user to customize what information was to be shown, menu layout (incl list), transparency, number key assignment etc. Toggle on or off any graphical element used for each slot.

- some of those systems even break/stop/slowdown the mission while beeing activated (one can even say its somekind of cheating because the player has now a "bonustime")

Oh, like Esc brings up a menu and pauses the game? Cheating in singleplayer? Who cares? If there is a slowdown while menu is shown, I would prefer to be able to adjust how much. Remember it's all about being able to control complex things with an interface that works for you - never ever will a user interface be as flexible and fast as voice/live interaction.

- design of such systems is mostly oriented on console gaming where players usually don't play with keyboad+mouse

For me it's an expansion of what I'm used to work with in a certain 3D application. It's also based on the frustration of the number system which to me rarely gives the expected results, and doesn't provide the graphical feedback I would expect in these times.

- direct commands/orders are changed faster by keypress than through a radial system

Highly dependent on how many times you have to hit backspace, either because you thought of the wrong number or hit the wrong key ;) For me (and I've been around for a while), I suck with things that doesn't mean anything. Nothing logical about 7 for formations, then 6 for line, is there? This is me changing to line formation:

7

Backspace (arrrggh, wrong number)

6

Backspace (nope, gotta be 8 then)

9

Backspace (crap, hit the wrong key)

8

6

**Swearing at this point, and most likely dead**

9

Backspace (oh c'mon - not again!!)

**

8

**Carefully scrolling and reading every item**

7

**Repeat the whole process for trying to take the guys out of danger mode to attempt evade incoming vehicle.

So the being speedier argument, I don't buy. It's a highly subjective thing. I'll agree it may be speedier in the few things you do a lot, but I also believe a well done radials system would be much more intuitive for the things you do less frequently, and easier to remember.

Better if BIS improves their context-sensitiv system and keeps the number system as backup.

I don't mind seeing hours being spent on that, and some of the things mentioned can be utilized for that as well (Arma1 had color coding for groups in its quick menu didn't it?). But the idea here is to have an alternative to the number system, something expandable as the number system is already exhausted. So we now get customizable weapon configurations. Which number combo would you like that under? Remember action list doesn't support having multiple units selected.

Guess only kids, trend victims and old men like to have a break & look on a stylish interface system... :p

Well, maybe I'm an old man, but I'm not asking for changes/additions for the aesthetics, but to improve effective use. But younglets always seem to think that if things work for them it have to work for everybody. Don't worry, give it a few more years and you might even agree :D

And again, I'm not sure if this idea is the mother of all ideas wrt UI. But at least it's something that is fairly thought out (probably unexpected issues of course), and it's not just a request to fix something without any clues on how to do it. This is how I (currently) vision it, feel free to pick it to pieces if you spot problems. But I have serious issues trying to be effective with the number system, and AI control problems is something I hear a lot of. When Arma2 came out, there were several threads about it. Some got used to it, others was never heard from again (and yes, reasons may not be related).

Now, a problem with my idea is that it only supports what you can see and point at, compared to the number system which allows you to order interaction with anything, allowing ordering units that are far away to interact.

If I was asked to improve the current number system without going too crazy, I would narrow it down to:

* Color coded entries. Teams are obvious, formations, engagements and behaviors could be red for aggressive, yellow for neutral/undefined, and green for defensive.

* Add tooltips (that we can turn off of course). But currently tooltips cannot be added to anything but buttons (iirc), so the underlying system would need to be updated.

* Error free (nobody else caught these errors?) and detailed tutorial on AI control, from a gaming standpoint.

* Switch that enables shaped menus for menus where a certain shape would be better than a pure list (directions, teams, formations maybe).

* More support for interactive line and visual cues when doing targets (during scrolling when not pressing numbers) or actions.

* Natural actions that relates to the object you're pointing at should be at the top of the action list when AI's are selected, and also allow multiple AI's to be selected at the same time for more of the actions, complete with a line from you to the object, and from the selected AI's to the object.

And now... some sleep :p

[EDcase 87]

Well, we definitely need separate fire mode selector and weapon select.

A separate grenade throw button with over/under mode would be good too.

Ordering AI to get in a vehicle when you do not have visual is a pain. It could be done by clicking on the map icons but what about in modes when there are no icons...?

Menu rose could work but I hope they keep the number selections as well because when you get used to it that's the fastest possible way to issue commands. Carl, you gotta work on those ;)

Edited June 14, 2011 by EDcase

[Tarisai 10]

I wrote a huge post that started to go into great depth with AI, so it sort of lost its relevance to the thread. Basically it boiled down to:

If the AI have good drills; then the amount (or specificity) of commands we need to issue would be less; then the command interface would be drastically refined, which will better enable design of a quick, effective and intuitive command interface.

I then said I personally like the radial style rather than number pecking but I guess that all comes down whatever floats your boat - if it works it works.

Anyway, I think good drills will lead to a great interface - rather than the a great interface leading to good drills.

[EDcase 87]

Anyway, I think good drills will lead to a great interface - rather than the a great interface leading to good drills.

The AI have no idea what your plan of attack/defence might be so there is no way they will know whether to flank left, stay back, advance or board a vehicle so we do need a quick way to issue commands.

I think the best system is the radial but the actual breakdown needs alot of thought. (we can't really help with that right now because we don't know all the possible commands and options that will be in A3)

How about 2 modes for the radial:

1- Full screen like the images from AmericasArmy etc.

2- Small mode in a corner which just shows words that can be selected without the graphics.

[dmarkwick 261]

I think I would favour a 12-spoked radial, to align with the F1-F12 keys. Everyone understands a clock layout right? :)

[Tarisai 10]

The AI have no idea what your plan of attack/defence might be so there is no way they will know whether to flank left, stay back, advance or board a vehicle so we do need a quick way to issue commands.

I didn't mean we don't need a way to issue these commands, I just mean it shouldn't be necessary to issue caveats to orders that would be instinctual to trained, professional soldiers.

Right now the AI don't really act like soldiers who've had extensive training and possibly previous combat experience - though they do to some extent have a certain degree of self preservation, they pretty much need micro management to be effective; and that micro management demands a lot of command interface real estate.

What I mean by drills (and you'll have to excuse me if I'm not using the right terminology as I've no military experience myself) is that AI should act according to their 'training'.

For example, ordering a team to clear a single story building should not require you to place individuals at entry points - then order grenades - then order entry and engage at will. It should simply require 'Clear Building'. The soldiers would've run the exercise over and over before and know exactly what to do.

Similarly, when on patrol and you want to check the map, you shouldn't have to order your men to take a knee and then get back up again. When you stop (as does your formation) they should automatically take a knee after a short period of being idle.

Basically, what I'm trying to suggest (whether it can realistically be implemented or not, I wouldn't know) is that if the AI knows how best to execute a manoeuvre via 'training' and 'experience', then you don't need to run them through every step of said manoeuvre via the command interface as though it was the first time they'd ever done such a thing.

Flank, Stay Back, Advance and board vehicle would all remain - but the commands currently needed to micromanage the stages of these orders wouldn't meaning it would be easier to design a lean and clean command interface.

I'm just spit-balling :)

[Innomadic 10]

I think I would favour a 12-spoked radial, to align with the F1-F12 keys. Everyone understands a clock layout right? :)

Thats sounding a fair bit like a radial...

[4 IN 1 0]

I would love to have a better integration of the high command system with the standard one and the colour team for better grouping of units.

We actually have 3 overlayed system doing their own things and not tied one to another.

High command should be default (even if you are just commanding single man groups at the start) with the ability to append/collapse/split groups.

Ideally I should be able to do the following :

- F1 to F10 keys = select units the usual way

- Shift F1 (or F2...)with selected units = Collapse all of them into the F1 (or F2...) slot and then make them controlable as a single unit/fireteam/colour team with their own chain of command.

- If I need to micro manage the units I can split the group again (Shift F1 again for instance) or get out of high command mode (which would actually be the default mode, even if it's only controlling single man groups at the start).

Something like this worked brilliantly in Battlezone or Homeworld years ago.

I would also vote for a cleaned up command menus... There are things that always puzzled me... like why the duplicate Engage/Engage at will but no "Land" command when in choppers, why do you have to order Stay low to have Copy my stance (or vice versa, can't remember right now...) etc...

This is pretty much what I've been said in a few other thread, but guess what? No one came across happen to have looked at the idea really care...

[SPC.Spets 21]

I preffer the old style number system and mouse wheel, at least to play SP campaign. In coop mission I only use the wheel mouse

[4 IN 1 0]

Yes, I agree they should keep it(and do a slight cleanup as well if they'd be so kind), and doing so WITHOUT acturally blocking its access by context sensitive menu, everyone happy...

[sw1 10]

Once you get to know the numbers for each command the current system works well :D

[4 IN 1 0]

Once you get to know the numbers for each command the current system works well :D

Doesn't matter, there are times that a human brain acturally forgets things and need a quick reminder by visual or audio.

[SPC.Spets 21]

but, you never forget how to ride a bicycle

[EricM 0]

I've been playing since 2001 and I still mess up very often...

[PuFu 4600]

i would prefer the radial menu over the current action_sensitive one any day. The 1-0 commands can stay just as they are now (some reorganising and some additional commands would be more than welcomed though)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Why creating/developing a brandnew interface system into A3 if the old one just needs improvements and polish here and there?

Its only a concentration/multitasking issue that some people have and can't memorize the last key they've pressed. Of course they will deny this and try to find "ideas" + "solutions" to cover their aging. :don 16:

Guess the next idea is that ArmA should be only a turn-based game like chess and MP is only via mail/morse/light signs. Slowmo but with a fancy + colorful interface... :p

[dmarkwick 261]

Why creating/developing a brandnew interface system into A3 if the old one just needs improvements and polish here and there?

Its only a concentration/multitasking issue that some people have and can't memorize the last key they've pressed. Of course they will deny this and try to find "ideas" + "solutions" to cover their aging.

In which case, as a young and vibrant member of the gaming community, you will have no need to use any modern radial system and continue to use your quaint keyboard-mashing technique... :)

I believe this comes under the banner of "improvements" and "polish".

[nodunit 397]

Mousewheel never bothered me, when you think about it how would the action menu's loss effect not only the game itself but community content since many of us use it for extended features.

[dmarkwick 261]

Mousewheel never bothered me, when you think about it how would the action menu's loss effect not only the game itself but community content since many of us use it for extended features.

There is no community content for ArmA3 :)