Ragdolls = In .... Realistic wounds ???

[Gerwazy 10]

This is what I think about it.

The most important thing for me is ragdoll but not some kind of shitty battlefield style ragdoll - I want something realistic - nice body weight so bodies will no longer slide downhill or downstairs - they must be heavy with all that equipment stuff(no bouncing off). Defragmentation would be a nice feature - 40mm frag shot thru the window and exploding inside - enemy looses his arm or leg.

And a second thing - blood and wounds. Currently I play Arma 2 with Ace2 blood, orginal bis blood, gl4 blood and slx wounds blood - that's what I call a neutralized enemy - a blood puddle on sand. Wounds - it would be realy nice to see a real wounds(not a texture fake stuff). As I saw on some gameplays and pictures in Arma 3 we will use mostly high velocity rounds like 5.56x45mm and some heavy rifle rounds like 7.62x51mm and I think those light high velocity rounds mostly scratch the target and make a small wound(outside) and some heavy rounds like 7.62x51mm makes a normal straight wound. It would be great if there would be some real wounds but not some giant holes(FarCry1 style). Maybe some headshot effects like in slx wounds:bounce3:.

Also Ive got an idea for bis - in slx wounds when somebody gets shot it's hard to pick up his gun/luncher because it gets some kind of unlocked from his body. In Arma3 when character dies or is wounded, his gun should be sticked to his hand or something, so he doesn't loose it.

I would love to see some Bis gore in Arma3 and Bis - there's nothing wrong in that relese date for me - You can even work on Arma3 longer because I know the longer Bohemia Interactive works on their babies - the preetier they are.

Edited December 20, 2011 by Gerwazy

[crazyjake56 10]

Warning, new to the Arma community.

So I've been looking at this topic, reading through posts, e.t.c., and personally I'm not sure the game needs gore. I've seen totalbiscuit's gameplay video and from what I've seen (this was from gamescom I think so it's not really recent) the game doesn't have gore. I'm not sure if gore would make a great addition to this game anyway but I think more detailed wounds certainly wouldn't harm the experience. But how would Arma 3 have this happen besides gore? Would it use sprays, or would something else be potentially used? (I figure gore is already possible through modding anyway so there's no point in asking if the devs could do that.)

[myshaak 0]

Personally, I'm fine with ArmA3 having ragdolls, I don't need gore (wherher realistic or hollywoodish). The only thing that has bugged me about this matter since OFP is that a soldier killed by an explosive dies with an animation as if shot by a bullet. With ragdolls, that's finally history.

And about so many people wishing for full gore: war is not just about a limb flying off, a hole here and there and it's over. There are far more wounded than killed on the battlefield and those wounded who are missing an arm, who have been shot to the stomach, who have had their leg turned to pulp by tank treads don't just lie there and watch your progress. They lie there in agony, screaming from the top of their lungs wishing (and making everyone who hears him wish) that they were home and that the war has never had happened. ....... no thanks, sometimes I don't need full realism, I'm fine with ragdolls and ArmA2 wounding.

And a last point from a different perspective: In ArmA2 (and all ArmA series for that matter) you can shoot friendlies, civilians and animals. It's not part of the campaign, it's not encouraged, it's penalised and most people don't do that, but you can. If it was possible turn your superior officer's head to "red matter" with Matylda, to turn civilian market place into blood rain, dozens of limbs, heads and guts flying everywhere with a satchel charge and shoot cow's legs off one by one by a .50, the game would either be banned or receive the highest rating possible... and that's wouldn't fit well to a resumé of a company who has military contracts all over the world, would it?

[iratus 71]

Personally, I'm fine with ArmA3 having ragdolls, I don't need gore (wherher realistic or hollywoodish). The only thing that has bugged me about this matter since OFP is that a soldier killed by an explosive dies with an animation as if shot by a bullet. With ragdolls, that's finally history.

And about so many people wishing for full gore: war is not just about a limb flying off, a hole here and there and it's over. There are far more wounded than killed on the battlefield and those wounded who are missing an arm, who have been shot to the stomach, who have had their leg turned to pulp by tank treads don't just lie there and watch your progress. They lie there in agony, screaming from the top of their lungs wishing (and making everyone who hears him wish) that they were home and that the war has never had happened. ....... no thanks, sometimes I don't need full realism, I'm fine with ragdolls and ArmA2 wounding.

And a last point from a different perspective: In ArmA2 (and all ArmA series for that matter) you can shoot friendlies, civilians and animals. It's not part of the campaign, it's not encouraged, it's penalised and most people don't do that, but you can. If it was possible turn your superior officer's head to "red matter" with Matylda, to turn civilian market place into blood rain, dozens of limbs, heads and guts flying everywhere with a satchel charge and shoot cow's legs off one by one by a .50, the game would either be banned or receive the highest rating possible... and that's wouldn't fit well to a resumé of a company who has military contracts all over the world, would it?

I 100% agree with this.

Plus, I don't want to see ArmA poping up in every anti-gaming article/taklshow/TV-show as an example of "how bad games are".

[Elliot Carver 0]

Its a tough line to walk, striking a balance between nanny state splerts of tomato sauce and gorecore postal blood baths. For me id like to see the balance met with realism. More emphasis on units dealing with casualties, team mates covering and rescuing team mates, bandaged wounds and different rules of engagement for medics.

A key area for me is better damage mapping and damage values. I shouldn't be able to kill someone by shooting their right foot and someone with 5.62 lodged in their left eye shouldn't be smiling and talking to me ...

[antoineflemming 14]

I 100% agree with this.

Plus, I don't want to see ArmA poping up in every anti-gaming article/taklshow/TV-show as an example of "how bad games are".

It's a simulator. If Black Ops can get away with arms and legs blowing off, and Medal of honor get away with arms, legs, AND heads blowing off, and still deal with their controversial Taliban issue, then I'm pretty sure BIS can deal with it, as they've got more just cause, than those two games, to include gore. At the very least, let the blood actually look kinda real.

[[evo] dan 79]

its a tough line to walk, striking a balance between nanny state splerts of tomato sauce and gorecore postal blood baths. For me id like to see the balance met with realism. More emphasis on units dealing with casualties, team mates covering and rescuing team mates, bandaged wounds and different rules of engagement for medics.

A key area for me is better damage mapping and damage values. I shouldn't be able to kill someone by shooting their right foot and someone with 5.62 lodged in their left eye shouldn't be smiling and talking to me ...

^^this

[purepassion 22]

[...], then I'm pretty sure BIS can deal with it, as they've got more just cause, than those two games, to include gore.

The point is they do not want it...

Here is all the information you need:

[...] He also said that dismemberement should be possible but will not be in vanilla.

[wipman 1]

Hi, i wish that the bodys have a real weight and the world, friction, so the bodys stop where they should after a HEAT shell explosion near by; and no more bodys flying static by 200m after a bomb. Let's C ya

[onlyrazor 11]

As long as the bodies aren't made of rubber, I'm fine with gorelessness, and I honestly wish these forums would allow me to revoke my poll vote.

[sic-disaster 311]

All the arguments I hear from people who are against gore basically translate to the idea that people who do want gore must surely fap like mad whenever a limb is blown off, or some of you might be afraid that you yourself will be associated with this stereotype.

Others just dont want to watch the gore as it is too realistic. That's fine.

Imho if it gets implemented it should be made an option with a parental lock so everybody can choose for themselves or have their parents decide for them what they get to see while playing, however I want to get something off of my chest first.

Many people don't seem to think that gore adds anything, and I disagree.

It wholely depends on how gore is implemented.

There is the Soldier of Fortune kind of implementation which is greatly exaggerated and unrealistic. Almost every shotgun round to the stomach will lead to entrails hanging out of the stomach etc.

And then there is a proper implementation of gore, and the best example I have ever seen so far is Red Orchestra 2: Heroes of Stalingrad.

The game has it's issues gameplay-wise and doesnt know quite what to be and it tries to find a middleground between realism and a more action-oriented gameplay, but the presentation of the game itself is highly authentic (again, lets just ignore the MP40/II and MKB for a moment) and immersive.

That does not only mean mostly accurate uniforms and weapon functionality, but also includes the sound department (reverbing sound etc), and yes, gore.

Soldiers can lose limbs, their head from explosive rounds (AT rifle, artillery, tank shells, grenades).

When soldiers get shot they lose blood, leave trails, or bleed out on the spot, and leave bullet marks on the body.

Now all of that is coupled with the best death screams and moans I have ever heard. Some of them are so convincing they sent shivers down my spine.

The following result was that when people started playing for the first time, they were overwhelmed.

They were in it for the gameplay and got confronted with something else: the realisation of what they were actually doing. Shooting people.

The good feeling of managing a 'killing spree' was off-set by the moaning and crying of the dying.

A soldier who's leg got torn off by a grenade usually gets grins from most gamers, but in RO2 they cried so hard people just became quiet.

I actually saw ingame once a teammate shooting an enemy soldier through the throat. The man fell down and started gurgling with such sounds that the guy that shot him typed 'sorry for that' in chat.

He came to the conclusion that he was putting a simple human being, not some faceless minion of the evil overlord, through agony. He had wanted to kill him, but not like that.

I felt the same when I once bayonetted several guys in a short period of time. I felt good. Untill my last foe started crying for his mother.

And for a little while, the forum received much comments on how RO2 made them think about the war that is portrayed in the game, and the insane things these soldiers might have gone through.

It made people think and realise that war sucks, and that on each end of the rifle each soldier is the same.

Through the gore and how all these other elements came together RO2 managed to humanise the enemy, and make people think about war and what it actually means.

The game made players feel emotions about their actions.

And that is one hell of an accomplishment.

For an example of some of the death moans, have a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57mICfWeAVg&list=FLidK8L2e7Lde3JyAoW8NS4A&index=15&feature=plpp_video

The best examples are in my opinion at 0:35 (imagine a soldier that was shot through the throat), 2:03 (imagine a soldier that got a limb torn off), and 3:24 (as his life leaves him).

I realise that not everybody wants to be confronted by reality like that while playing a game.

But think of the good it might do if it confronts other people with this reality, especially kids of younger age who look at CoD and BF and think that these games are realistic (they are there. the fact that BF3's weapons aren't hitscan immediately raises the realism-bar completely for them).

I believe that games could do more to educate people, and can be more than just simple entertainment.

And as long as it is an option that you can turn on and off, you dont HAVE to be confronted with this at all.

But for those who wish it can then experience something more than just a game, and be completely immersed and be made to feel things.

Edited December 22, 2011 by SiC-Disaster

[On_Sabbatical 11]

I want to see arms,legs and balls everywhere ...

ofcourse i want dismembrement :D it will add a lot of realism to the game...

[Cyper 18]

I would really like a more realistic level of gore. IMO arma feels away to ''clean''. The game portrays war after all.

I want more dust, dirt, grime, blood and gore! However, I do NOT want it to be overdone.

It would also be a nice touch with blood spill and wounds. This would mean that it wouldn't be possible to put 20 rounds into the body of an enemy and then take his clothes and use it as a disguise.

Edited December 22, 2011 by Cyper

[Tonci87 163]

Well there is certainly a problem with gore.

In Arma 2 one of your Teammates gets shot in the leg. The medic can heal him with some magic hand movement.

Now with gore:

One of your Teammates gets shot in the leg, the legs is blown off.

A medic heals him and magically reattaches his leg?

I wouldn't like that

[rye1 21]

Hahahah field surgery--I'll get the sewing kit!

[PuFu 4600]

Imho if it gets implemented it should be made an option with a parental lock so everybody can choose for themselves or have their parents decide for them what they get to see while playing, however I want to get something off of my chest first.

There doesn't need to be any sort of parental lock on a 18+ game

anyhow, while some of you want the gore (read dismemberment), you got to understand that BIS doesn't want to add it in. In the end it is their games and i am pretty sure they have their own reasons.

That said, i am all for improved wounding, especially in the way the damage is handled by the avatars (more precise visual representation of the impact as in no more the same wounding textures and removing the hitpoint system that allows one to be able to kill someone by repeatedly shooting his legs/arms...)

[sic-disaster 311]

Well there is certainly a problem with gore.

In Arma 2 one of your Teammates gets shot in the leg. The medic can heal him with some magic hand movement.

Now with gore:

One of your Teammates gets shot in the leg, the legs is blown off.

A medic heals him and magically reattaches his leg?

I wouldn't like that

There is a huge difference between getting hit in the leg with a riflebullet and getting the entire leg torn off lol.

That would be a simple case of 'leg is off, soldier is dead and beyond repair', even though in real life you might live through such a wound ;)

[nodunit 397]

Through the gore and how all these other elements came together RO2 managed to humanise the enemy, and make people think about war and what it actually means.

The game made players feel emotions about their actions.

And that is one hell of an accomplishment.

For an example of some of the death moans, have a look at this video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=57mICfWeAVg&list=FLidK8L2e7Lde3JyAoW8NS4A&index=15&feature=plpp_video

The best examples are in my opinion at 0:35 (imagine a soldier that was shot through the throat), 2:03 (imagine a soldier that got a limb torn off), and 3:24 (as his life leaves him).

I realise that not everybody wants to be confronted by reality like that while playing a game.

But think of the good it might do if it confronts other people with this reality, especially kids of younger age who look at CoD and BF and think that these games are realistic (they are there. the fact that BF3's weapons aren't hitscan immediately raises the realism-bar completely for them).

I believe that games could do more to educate people, and can be more than just simple entertainment.

And as long as it is an option that you can turn on and off, you dont HAVE to be confronted with this at all.

But for those who wish it can then experience something more than just a game, and be completely immersed and be made to feel things.

Wow..just..wow..hearing that gurgling sound was something..the mental image it projected was definately not a pleasant one. You're right about the guy crying for his mother, that one is pretty deep, felt very sorry for him.. Something like this would be an excellent edition because to a point, OFP was about showing how war was NOT such a great thing..and this would really help with that message. It definately brings the chills of war to life hearing the screams and not in a way that sounds so hollywood like some tough guy shouting obscenities on the radio, that doesn't inject any emotion.

Honestly if I shot a guy in the throat and heard him gurgling like that it would have to become a double tap, because I couldn't stand that sound double if he holds his throat while blood trickles from his jugular as he looks up at you with hateful or pleading eyes, perhaps begging you to help him or put him out of his misery. Not only would something like that be an amazing touch but there seems to also be the idea that todays wars are much 'cleaner' and more 'humane'..many people forget that regardless of the time period, war is always horrific and brutal.

Edited December 24, 2011 by NodUnit

[Tonci87 163]

Wow..just..wow..hearing that gurgling sound was something..the mental image it projected was definately not a pleasant one. You're right about the guy crying for his mother, that one is pretty deep, felt very sorry for him.. Something like this would be an excellent edition because to a point, OFP was about showing how war was NOT such a great thing..and this would really help with that message. It definately brings the chills of war to life hearing the screams and not in a way that sounds so hollywood like some tough guy shouting obscenities on the radio, that doesn't inject any emotion.

Honestly if I shot a guy in the throat and heard him gurgling like that it would have to become a double tap, because I couldn't stand that sound double if he holds his throat while blood trickles from his jugular as he looks up at you with hateful or pleading eyes, perhaps begging you to help him or put him out of his misery. Not only would something like that be an amazing touch but there seems to also be the idea that todays wars are much 'cleaner' and more 'humane'..many people forget that regardless of the time period, war is always horrific and brutal.

^This

Damn that Video is intense, couldn´t watch it to the End. War is F**** up

[DaveP 66]

Reminds me of when I first played Ro2, it really injected a huge feeling the first time you shot a guy at close range, saw him crumple over and cry for his mother

Makes a guy want a sound mod to put em in

[onlyrazor 11]

Weird. Only thing I ever get to hear is "ZA STALINAAAAA" before having my head bashed in with a rifle stock.

[sic-disaster 311]

Glad to see there are more people who think like I do.

Somehow listening to the death moans makes me want to create a tactical shooter myself lol, but in the style of the oldschool Rainbow Six or SWAT games (a good CQB game has been a long time coming).

It would be heavily focussed on stuff like this, I'd want proper death moans and gurgles in, and dying animations, blood trails and gore. Especially Rogue Spear's dying animations are still top notch and coupled with some well-done death moans could really add to the effect.

But more over I'd want stuff like briefings to only contain info on the tactical situation at hand, so the player does what he needs to do, then afterwards in a debriefing scenario give the after action report with info on why the suspect did what he did.

That's kind of inspired by the tv series Flashpoint, which is focussed on a Police Strategic Response Unit. In their episodes they also show the suspect side of things.

One episode was about a father who's daughter needed a heart transplant. In waiting they were told they could best go home because the wait could be a while longer, and so they went home.

Then during the episode they got paged a new heart had arrived and they needed to come asap, only to find out at arriving in the hospital that they had made an error and the heart was supposed to be put into some old dude, because the old dude had stayed and was closer to the hospital and was now put first into line.

His daughter however only had a few months left to live, so he grabbed a gun off of a security guard and threatened the doctors to put the heart into his daughter.

Now that is stuff everybody can surely relate to.

If you had gone on that mission and you had to shoot that guy, and you were confronted with the effects of shooting a man ingame (him falling over, dying slowly and crying about his daughter for example) and afterwards were confronted with his motivations to his actions, you'd feel mighty bad, and in future you might think things through more carefully because you dont want a situation like that to repeat itself.

And even more than in SWAT 4, every kill you make feels like a fail instead of a win.

On the topic of the RO2 death moans though:

There is a bug in multiplayer which causes the death moans to be skipped somehow.

A terrible shame but apparently they are working on it. You can still hear them in single player though, don't know what caused them to break in MP.

The melee charge screams are great as well though hehe. "Für das Vaterlaaaand!" or the more simple but more awesome "RAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!" :D

[BMFer 1]

Just thought I would give this thread the bump it deserves. Nothing adds to a war games immersion as much as a good blood and gore system. Every bullet should make a impact on the game world and show that these are not somthing you want to get lodged in your chest or face. explosions should be able to tear people to shreds and high cal weapons should take off limbs and leave huge holes in people and buildings alike. ARMA 3 is allready using Physx and im sure physics simulated blood and gore would look excellent.

[-Coulum- 35]

Although I agree with you bi has already clearly stated there will be no dismemberment in a3. I can understand why they chosen this route but it is kind of too bad. Moddets will have the ability to make dismemberment but from what I hear it is a very long process where they literally have to make a model for every possible wounds, for all the different types of units - so even if we do get some form of dismemberment it probably won't work for every unit in game let alone modded units.

The good news is that bi hasn't stated it will not make improvements to their blood effects, death animations/sounds or nondismembering wounds. Use my sig to Vote for these improvement if you think it'll help. Otherwise we just gotta wait and hope. No matter, arma3 is still going to be awesome.

Edited March 5, 2012 by -Coulum-

[antoineflemming 14]

Maybe modders could go the SLX route. In SLX, there was if I remember, one model for dismemberment. I think. It was like a skeleton, charred looking person or something like that. Maybe there could be something like that for characters who get blown up. It wouldn't realistically portray individual limbs being blown off, but it could be like a bloody body with some limbs missing. It could be generic for all "units". And, yeah, it would really be varied for any scenario, it'd kinda just be the same model, but that could work better than nothing at all. Anyway, maybe someone could go the SLX route, and just make it look more real.

yeah, here: http://i273.photobucket.com/albums/jj227/teekandchico/crispy.jpg Maybe something that looks more realistic, but it's definitely something modders could do.