Stealth Kills?

[nodunit 397]

You guys creep me out... sure hope FBI didn't see any of this

Pft, please, FBI,CIA and DHS have been watching us since they discovered our addons research section.

[John Kozak 14]

The problem is the fact that it is pretty heavy to implement using mods, as for the animations the modder must have a lot of talent AND still jump over his head. Besides, if it was a separate mod, not much people would be using it because of the same argument.

Implementing it as a gameplay feature is much better from the sense of having it as a complement to the campaign and "uniformity" of it's presence in multiplayer (PvP/Coop).

The whole "realism" discussion was spawned just because of some overly aggressive folks.

actual military people said here the most common application is on a sleeping target.

This statement wasn't in this thread. The point you're referring to was only about TF42 (UKSF).

As a person who trained in martial arts, I assure you, it's not so difficult to sneak on unsuspecting target from behind. (note for demagogues: I'm stating exactly what is written in this phrase, not more, not less)

The whole point of "sentry neutralization" techniques is to kill a guard silently and without using a firearm, because even "the quietest suppressors meter at 117 dB". Any sounds that even the most messy knife takedown can produce are certainly below that threshold. And of course, the one who's performing it will try to do it with 100% certainty.

i think a good way for arma would be to have a combat knife but not having the typical FPS one shot kill

I am sorry, but we're talking about ArmA. The whole game is "one shot, one kill" - considering that you have 12.7mm sniper weapons, FFARs, tank cannons, grenades, and headshots. It is balance like "okay, this weapon is too powerful for the gameplay, we'll add fatigue to compensate" which is "typical FPS stuff", not "one shot, one kill".

As a side note, I would like to point out that SEAL-style diving was added to the game - while it is even rarer (IMHO) thing to see in actual operations than h2h combat. Why not to add something comparably rare?

Edited April 5, 2013 by DarkWanderer
added disclaimer

[bad benson 1733]

here we go again...

As a person who trained in martial arts, I assure you, it's not so difficult to sneak on unsuspecting target from behind.

you don't need any experience to know these things. just common sense and an honest look at things.

all that was not my point. you basically do exactly what i described and what has been done in here over and over.

what would be really interesting instead is how you would want this actually implemented instead of this never ending vortex of opinions and alleged expert knowledge. there has been an addon released that adds what you seem to want exactly minus cinematic animations.

please stop with the weird comparisons. how can you compare a highly accelerated projectile with a knife stab. stabbing someone with the knife is totally different from shooting someone.

my point was that if you really want to go on with your realism angle then take into account that there should be a certain point on the body to hit to instantly kill to make things more interesting and challenging. and yea certainly more realistic. if you want just what other games have then you already have it...

[EleventhAvenue 10]

Stealth kills: Why? I've used mods which included knifes, and quite honestly, i've never had the faintest need to use them. I just don't get the point...

[nodunit 397]

I just don't get the point...

Either you're not thinking of many scenario's they can be used in then or you're not very imaginative.

From a gameplay standpoint knives or melee in general could mean

A. the ability to protect yourself when out of ammo, a new mechanic for the game (innovating) and possibly turning the standard on its head by NOT making knives a one hit kill ordeal.

B. The ability to compliment and make more important an armor system wherein stabbing someone in the largest spot would be less effective to moot based on body armor type.

C. the introduction of new game modes, knife only, melee weapons such as swords, hunting animals with a knife and so on.

D. The ability to properly expand into mods predating the first gun wherein swords were commonplace.

E. Possibly using it as a tool.

Edited April 5, 2013 by NodUnit

[bad benson 1733]

D. The ability to properly expand into mods predating the first gun wherein swords were commonplace.

oh how great that would be! my hope is that some of the stuff made for dayZ will eventually be added into arma. it's basically the same engine after all. since ofp i wished it would be possible to make a large scale medieval mod. it would be amazing. me and Einherj (he did all the coding i did animations) made some, for arma, pretty decent melee for arma 2. we never released it though. but from having dealt with it i can tell you that it's a lot of work just to make it work and look well.

the problem with totally modding it though is that the code will run on top of the engine code and is slow due to that. that makes mass melee battles in MP impossible. and it will always be a workaround that never feels totally polished.

i really hope for a basic melee weapon we can work with. it would expand the spectrum of mods immensely. let's just hope BI will realize the potential and put a version of what they will make for dayZ into arma 3 eventually.

[rye1 21]

Stuff

You know this is a forum where you dispute some opinions, and if that topic is on reality that's what you do. :rolleyes:

When you're talking about wounding based off 'a very small point' I'm sure you mean on the character anatomy, and that would mean the current state of the hit detection system would need an overhaul. That would therefore detect 'kill-no kill' areas. Is that what you mean? The point has been discussed before that you still have to have a quick calculation for it to detect the hit and pass on the damage. The current system expands all damage along the body and includes an armour value. If it has a really well done animation attached you can use it in a controlled fashion, it's like playing M&B which I find to be hard to judge length of weapon when I'm trying to strike... in comparison with GTA where you just know. Not that it would matter if it was a QTE...

I think people have argued QTE events as mainly negative. It's static, it's arcade-y and linear. Compare that with say, if you could use the knife like you unholster your pistol. It's there in your hand and can be used, that's dynamic. But at the same time I could see cons around it, such as relative speed. But then again if you compare to the likes of MGO then they've done very well around that. From an implementation stand point, as long as it's there. The object and the animation say - modders can do wonders. Mechanics can be worked around. I think an QTE isn't a bad starting point, simply animation and condition rather than mash a button - that's how current mods that are out do it anyway.

The most common application in ARMA won't be on a 'sleeping target'. Think about it. But I agree the most realistic way to have it away from a one-hit wonder FPS type feature would be realistic hit detection, I believe also a dynamic action rather than QTE. That means I can actually use it for whatever other than a strict condition. If I jam then there it is, as an example.

Counters? I don't know. If that's for PVP I think it wouldn't go down well. If for AI based on chance I wouldn't mind because I see better value there.

Sure it could be scripted, already has in fact and is there for download but like you say, and people agree with - it would be nice to have it base in the vanilla game, even if solely for modding purposes. It's a start. You can see the benefit having already developed melee in ARMA 2.

An example would be a simple bayonet that can be attached with a thrust animation.

Stuff

"The Welrod, also known as the "Assassin's Pistol", was extremely quiet for a gun, producing a sound of around 73 dB when fired."

What about the Hi-Standard OSS .22 pistol with silencer and subsonic rounds, the "Hushpuppy."

Now skip thirty years into the future, I can only dream. A similar pistol in game, in which the AI does not react to like the 'standard' suppressor or weapon would actually be a cool thing to see. "Stealth" in that sense would open up a little more.

But how can you say it's easy? It's difficult to say the least to sneak up on somebody. Especially on certain types of terrain. But anyhow without going off the point, the way it is in ARMA the AI react pretty damn spontaneously as soon as you get within five (?) maybe more meters. I don't know how that works, say if you're prone and crawling when the detection range is, but they can sure snap to you that's for sure.

And I agree - others features currently in game may be classed as 'rare'. Same goes with specific events around them, I've never killed anything underwater with underwater rounds yet as an example but I'm not going to put it down; the 'ability' was needed.

there has been an addon released that adds what you seem to want exactly minus cinematic animations.

Yeah it's a great opener, I hope it keeps improving. It depends on the authors focus and purpose, his goals. Some people like less realistic mods where you can piss about and have fun like fist fighting in M&B and SWAT4. Others realistic with specific conditions, but whatever we've seen currently from other games standpoints has been pretty poor, with games like MGO leading the way with thumbs up. Modding standpoint it depends on how they can get there, if they even can - they may not be able to work what they want into it, proper mechanics or animations. It's a big task if they want to take it to the next level.

large scale medieval mod. it would be amazing. me and Einherj (he did all the coding i did animations) made some, for arma, pretty decent melee for arma 2. we never released it though. but from having dealt with it i can tell you that it's a lot of work just to make it work and look well.

the problem with totally modding it though is that the code will run on top of the engine code and is slow due to that. that makes mass melee battles in MP impossible. and it will always be a workaround that never feels totally polished.

Well, wouldn't changing the hit detection system as you say with what I presume as 'kill zones' make the code just that much more slower... worse off? That therefore making MP battles worse off, server FPS lowered, more code in a short space of time needing an instant answer.

And I think with DayZ I could imagine something like this coming out there before anywhere near standard ARMA but who knows. It kind of fits that 'survival' setting. But on animations, with the new animations in A3, is it easier to produce them and do better quality ones mean you have less problems compared with A2? I could imagine they would be much more smoother... meaning they look good as well as perform in a reasonable way.

[bad benson 1733]

You know this is a forum where you dispute some opinions, and if that topic is on reality that's what you do.

well to me a good thread is rather about discussing than disputing. but that's just me i guess :rolleyes: look at me i can use sassy smilies too:p.

i just find it annoying how most topics in the general section turn into two party disputes. the topic is about stealth kills. you guys are the ones that made it about realism trying to justify one-shot kills with real world reference. i don't have that much of a problem with insta-kill itself if it's controlled by certain conditions (knives should need head shots too for insta-kill). i was mainly commenting on the way people "handle" the topic.

The most common application in ARMA won't be on a 'sleeping target'.

lol. really? i was just mocking how people discuss the topic. you could add martial arts with advanced techniques and kicks into the game if you wanted. it's a game. there are no rules...

Well, wouldn't changing the hit detection system as you say with what I presume as 'kill zones' make the code just that much more slower... worse off?

i don't see what you are trying to say here. i was just sharing my experiences i had with melee in arma 2 and why i think a default melee base is needed. are you trying to say that adding a new hit point is technically impossible without losing significant FPS? very confusing.

why would you need a new hit zone anyways? the head already causes insta-death. all i was saying is that aiming would make it less fail safe and more interesting.

But on animations, with the new animations in A3, is it easier to produce them and do better quality ones mean you have less problems compared with A2?

the animations themselves are smoother and the way they transition in some cases. the animation tree however is basically the same as in arma 2 = not so good;). the problem with arma is that lots of weapon specific animations, actually most of them, are full body animations. that means just for holding one type of new weapon you would need to make a lot of new animations.

i never understood why BI handled animations that way. maybe to avoid weird poses resulting from upper body and lower body animation not fitting each other. it certainly makes things a lot more complicated. you would basically need all stances with holding a melee weapon. and even then you would be restricted to that weapon again. that means modding a sword from a knife would involve the same effort again. a bayonet is actually something that is easy to make since it would be just one animation coming from the normal stance with a weapon. (i just had an idea for an addon ;))

[C0mbustableL3m0nz 1]

[rye1 21]

Stuff

Well, I find it not nice how you make the assumption that it was argument without comparison to gaming. It's been going for tonnes of pages and has made multiple comparisons to gaming - the people who jump in to repeat the same old, "dat neva hapen" are the ones who take it elsewhere. I, and in this thread others, have already stated how it could go in game from a perspective, non developer at that, and with relation to making it realistic or at least believable. It's nowhere near the way a developer would think, it would be nice to have the opinion of a mod developer in that regard. I'm not the cause of saying 'this doesn't happen' and other stupid comments, I'm the cause of referencing reality to prove that stupid comment wrong.

You're the one who stated, "maybe even what has been mentioned: having to aim for a very small point that would allow insta death" by the way. To which I reacted off by asking if you meant a 'kill' zone specifically utilized? Meaning a new hit detection system. I thought you meaning more complex than just head. Because depending on damage values you can still survive a shot to the head. Helmet, armour values included. But now I get what you mean, you're right, in a dynamic fashion it could be done like that - but the knife I would presume would have a 'lower' damage value... unless you could specific lower damage values for certain areas?

Animations: They're basically the same as ARMA 2? And it sounds like more work for new weapons, etc. That doesn't sound promising.

Yeah I thought bayonet would be a lot easier than a knife. Especially a 'dynamic' knife which would mean animations for unsheathing and sheathing, using it, QTE and so on. That's too much. But a bayonet which attaches on the rifles and an animation for thrusting, that would be a tonne easier. I hope you do make a bayonet add-on. :D

Here's some fun motivation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU

[bad benson 1733]

Well, I find it not nice how you make the assumption that it was argument without comparison to gaming.

well i guess i'm a bad person then, having an opinion on what happened here the last pages and all that. i read most of the thread and well i dropped out when it started to be about anatomy and how certain techniques justify one shot kills. i just found it silly. sorry. all i did was try to get this on a constructive route again. and i think i succeeded partly.

Especially a 'dynamic' knife which would mean animations for unsheathing and sheathing, using it, QTE and so on. That's too much.

i wasn't stating stuff about arma's animations to make this point. not everything people say is an argument for one side of the dispute going on in here...i hope that BI considers at least a punch. OFP had a some kind of a punch in it's configs called stroke (at least that's what i always thought it was). maybe they can revive that.

I hope you do make a bayonet add-on.

already looking into it.;)

[Mac 1]

I just want to point out that in these videos, nowhere in there is any type of stealth sentry takedown techniques. Unless you are some SF type unit you don't generally train on it. Also, I can tell you from experience that classes taught to your basic western soldier regarding this topic, are usually more about building confidence than anything else. It is so that you have something to fall back on and not panic if you are ever in that situation. And they are rarely if ever employed in combat.

[seamusgod 1]

a punch would be even more out of place than a takedown. at least a takedown would resemble cqb or matrial arts training that might be fitting for the seal divers.

a punch looks like something that belongs in bar fight. and what are you going to do to a guy from behind? spam the punch button and watch your character do the stupid punch animation on the back of a guy's head and knock him out?

[rye1 21]

a punch would be even more out of place than a takedown. at least a takedown would resemble cqb or matrial arts training that might be fitting for the seal divers.

a punch looks like something that belongs in bar fight. and what are you going to do to a guy from behind? spam the punch button and watch your character do the stupid punch animation on the back of a guy's head and knock him out?

I agree, keep punching with M&B and SWAT4. Muzzle or butt-strike are better in comparison, plus you already have the weapons in game - no need to work on 'hands' used as instruments.

I just want to point out that in these videos, nowhere in there is any type of stealth sentry takedown techniques. Unless you are some SF type unit you don't generally train on it. Also, I can tell you from experience that classes taught to your basic western soldier regarding this topic, are usually more about building confidence than anything else. It is so that you have something to fall back on and not panic if you are ever in that situation. And they are rarely if ever employed in combat.

There's videos out there, just look, 'Killed or Be Killed', 'Commando: Britain's Elite Soldiers of WW2', 'NZSAS: First Among Equals' to name a starting few. I agree confidence building is a fact of training.

[PFC Magician 10]

Stealth kills: Why? I've used mods which included knifes, and quite honestly, i've never had the faintest need to use them. I just don't get the point...

well i play domination arma2 and happened to me a situation in the middle of a town without ammunition and near a tango

not very often, but it happened to me.

Bayonets are interesting but present a compatibility problem with new modders weapons maybe

I think the knife is the best option, as it could use to kill snakes (Anaconda if they exist in Greece) in marshy places, stalkers

or other wild animals

Edited April 7, 2013 by PFC Magician

[rye1 21]

Compatibility problem? Isn't there a way of saying 'bayonets cannot be used on this weapon' via scripting or something to prevent that happening? I think the main issue is animations. Animation of thrusting. The good thing about it being bayonet only as an implementation is that you don't need multiple animations, for instance the knife would need animations for moving with it, using it, sheath/unsheathing.

And to the last part, I think 'hunting' would be included by modders or mission makers. Stealth missions would be made more frequently, because missions change around features. Example underwater diving and the SDV. It opens up new ways of playing and creating missions. Even though 'hunting' sounds very RPG-like, someone will probably do it.

Edited April 7, 2013 by Rye

[Nutlink 10]

I'm not completely against it, but I can tell you that out of the thousands of hours I've spent playing OFP, ArmA, ArmA 2, and ArmA 3, I can count on one hand how many times I have wished for some sort of stealth melee kill.

[cifordayzserver 119]

For everyone coming up with medical evidence and what not about how no single knife strike or neck break could ever happen..

Rear naked choke alone can silently knock a person out in seconds when applied correctly...

Make it a percentage chance of success, it automatically requires to be un-detected because otherwise the AI or other play responds with gun fire and raising the alarm...

People are trying to make it out as if it's a HARD thing to add... it's not. Just by virtue of existing mechanics it will take player skill to get behind someone w/o detection... it's almost impossible anyway. Add to that the 1-10 seconds delay and add in the ability for the victim to struggle loose enough to raise the alarm...

The ONLY thing that would/could/MAYBE should be added would be a victim response, IE once you're in the other players grip you have 2-5 seconds to struggle free, and again it's up to random chance.

It makes the attempt risky w/o much benefit and prevents you from being victimized repeatedly.

[cross888 10]

Here's some fun motivation:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3pzxb2sxbDU

HAHAHAA That bayonet Video, Awesome!

I can tell you now that that's the dumed down version of it, There was no pork pies or random bullying in it so I'm not satisfied.

You usually go through Crawling through aloud of shitty mud and then practice pinning down a dummy and bayoneting its eye's / throat as well.

And of course the fighting through and standing on some Duckers chest whilst you stick a bayonet in there face / throat again or guts or what ever.

And Mac

You have no military experience fair enough you might be an ambulance tech but you don't know what your talking about.

If this is the same Mac from TF86 GO talk to Scott, Porter, and MoMoe I'm pretty sure those fellas would have done sentry killing training and bayonet fighting at some point of there military careers

Especially porter as he's an Airborne death dealing steely eyed high speed low drag warrior :)

Edited April 7, 2013 by Cross888
Profanity

[Mac 1]

And Mac

You have no military experience fair enough you might be an ambulance tech but you don't know what your talking about.

If this is the same Mac from TF86 GO talk to Scott, Porter, and MoMoe I'm pretty sure those fellas would have done sentry killing training and bayonet fighting at some point of there military careers

Im sorry but who the fuck are you to call me out on what I know. This is not the same guy from TF86. I dont know those guys you named. Also, from experience (The experience you don't have), I can tell you that not all soldiers have the same exact military experience. Guys going through different courses at different times in the military are going to experience different things. So while your buddies might have had a couple classes on sentry takedown it is still not a standardized course for mose western troops unless you're in some SF type unit.

[PN11A 2]

Ok my turn. I have 5 years ( and counting) of SOF experience. I know porter and the TF86 guys good guys but truth be told military experience is not created equal. Now of course take this with a grain of salt, I have had plenty if instruction in cqc, Cqb and even gft. The training military gets is fam training at best, you will never become an expert based on military schools. They show you and teach you how to learn its in you to continue learning. That said I have a knife and tomahawk, I know only 1 guy with a knife kill and it wasn't silent or ninja. And then there is a guy with a knife kill on a boar but he doesn't count.

[cross888 10]

Ok my turn. I have 5 years ( and counting) of SOF experience. I know porter and the TF86 guys good guys but truth be told military experience is not created equal. Now of course take this with a grain of salt, I have had plenty if instruction in cqc, Cqb and even gft. The training military gets is fam training at best, you will never become an expert based on military schools. They show you and teach you how to learn its in you to continue learning. That said I have a knife and tomahawk, I know only 1 guy with a knife kill and it wasn't silent or ninja. And then there is a guy with a knife kill on a boar but he doesn't count.

Fair one man, I'm by no means saying it happens all the time I'm just saying that Mac's wrong to pursume that sentry killing isn't taught to combat arms troops just "Them". :)

And I think speculating about that if you have no background in the mob is about as much use as me speculating about astrophysics and fencing with my penis... Okay i might know something about fencing with my shlong.

@Mac Its Part of our Syllabus, I presume the ICT at Catterick has it and RM Deffo have it, now dry your eyes princess.

PS: I do apologies for mistaking you for man we used to know, but you're making yourself look like a penis by getting all teary over a forum post which you clearly don't know what your talking about.

However it doesn't change the fact that You can't speculate about what other NATO country's do as part of there combat arms syllabus unless you have either taken part in said training or had legitimate contact with somebody who knows what there talking about. And just because you think you're opinion is right doesn't mean it is, and screaming about how every one else is wrong just further reinforces why I mistook you as somebody else good sir.

And once again I am sorry If I have caused you offense :)

Edited April 7, 2013 by Cross888
I was a bit harsh.

[PN11A 2]

How would we create a fighting system for arma? I'm thinking something like heavy rain. Arma mechanics won't allow for real time. So start a module, you are allowed to target 3 vitals, once you initiate defender gets one chance to respond if he chooses the wrong button stealth kill/ kill from behind wins. If he chooses correct if goes into a fight Sequence where you basically have to land 3 In row to win...? Thoughts?

[rye1 21]

By no means 'happens all the time', most of the events found on it are 99% non-stealth events (hence why it is better to request a multipurpose implementation like a bayonet). Usually meaning fights gone bad, down to the bone. In fact there are some nightmarish situations that have happened. Bayonet kills being most prominent in recent times. The least prominent being bare knuckle hand-to-hand, with no sources on 'tomahawk kills' or the likes; the most prominent hand-held weapon there is knives. I agree, in recent years there have been a lot of changes to combatives courses and the likes - say the rejection of pugil sticks [or was it bayonet training?] as a trial in some units. As exampled by Matt Larsen's contributions: he seems to get what the combat knife is applicable for in combat, because he works with those units that are in majority high-risk situations, fighting close month by month. What you do in ARMA everyday. 'Sentry killing' less of a factor, if obsolete for some units (tending to be conventionally). I think open warfare with Iran would certainly bring that back though, especially for as portrayed in ARMA3 as a unit behind enemy lines in a conventional or semi-conventional war.

[PN11A 2]

Rye, your stroking the fire, wether we all agree or disagree how about we figure out how instead of why? Maybe we can spark something and a talented coder can create it, then it's completely optional