Stealth Kills?

[rye1 21]

ITT people watch too many Hollywood movies and argue that SpecOps come close to the enemy on various loud surfaces in heavy boots without ever being heard and manage to do one-hit-kills with a knife.

Sources that don't use knives then or get taught advanced hand-to-hand....

Exactly. It has happened, it will continue to happen.

Spetsnaz have used crossbow, yes. And USSF has used bow and arrows. Doesn't mean they should be added - but cool.

[metalcraze 290]

If knives were such an Ultimate Weapon Of Doom and SpecOps were completely undetectable to an enemy - SpecOps wouldn't be taking silenced guns with much less stopping power than Hollywood-Knife like HKs and wouldn't have so many fuck ups on "stealth" missions.

[wolfbite 8]

No ones saying its an ultimate weapon of doom.... we're just saying why not include them? Just because you dont get into h2h 90% of the time doesnt mean it should just be totally ignored...

[Kieran 11]

If knives were such an Ultimate Weapon Of Doom and SpecOps were completely undetectable to an enemy - SpecOps wouldn't be taking silenced guns with much less stopping power than Hollywood-Knife like HKs and wouldn't have so many fuck ups on "stealth" missions.

because they take both :p

[metalcraze 290]

Actually you don't get into H2H range like 99.999999% of the time in ArmA so I'd rather wish BIS spent time on improving those "remaining" 99.999999%.

Instead of bothering to add a knife which will rather make an enemy cry in pain or make other noise most of the time when you'll use it.

because they take both :p

Of course. But the knife isn't a magical one-hit-kill device. And implementing it in any other way in a game will make it completely pointless in contrast to a well placed headshot from some silenced carbine

I think the reason why BIS never bothered with a knife is because it's extremely hard implementing it in a realistic way. Games either don't have it, it's a pointless weapon compared to guns or games have one-hit-kills with it.

Edited June 7, 2011 by metalcraze

[rye1 21]

If knives were such an Ultimate Weapon Of Doom and SpecOps were completely undetectable to an enemy - SpecOps wouldn't be taking silenced guns with much less stopping power than Hollywood-Knife like HKs and wouldn't have so many fuck ups on "stealth" missions.

Stopping power compared with a knife? Knife trauma is very very very deadly. It has enough penetration to reach the vitals and it creates a large cavity. More people die from stabbing injuries in crimes than firearm injuries.

It's a back up, not a primary, if your weapon breaks, you run out of ammo, you jam, you need it to be quiet (compared with whatever you have on you). It isn't used in all situations - just like your pistol as a sidearm.

[Kieran 11]

Actually you don't get into H2H range like 99.999999% of the time in ArmA so I'd rather wish BIS spent time on improving those "remaining" 99.999999%.

Instead of bothering to add a knife which will rather make an enemy cry in pain or make other noise most of the time when you'll use it.

Of course. But the knife isn't a magical one-hit-kill device. And implementing it in any other way in a game will make it completely pointless in contrast to a well placed headshot from some silenced carbine

I think the reason why BIS never bothered with a knife is because it's extremely hard implementing it in a realistic way. Games either don't have it, it's a pointless weapon or games have one-hit-kills with it.

The fact is if the game is so realistic enough to not have any CQB at all?

The knife is a one hit kill, it all depends where the blade penetrates

nobody is thinking about people running around with knifes chasing people to stab them in arma,

but its good to have a backup knife to use incase of a close encounter

Plus i would really love to see the option for fix bayonets

now thats realisitc :rolleyes:

[HyperU2 11]

I had a wounded OPFOR actually crawl upstairs to me the other day, I'd have liked a knife just to save the bullet I used to dispatch him.

[metalcraze 290]

Stopping power compared with a knife? Knife trauma is very very very deadly. It has enough penetration to reach the vitals and it creates a large cavity. More people die from stabbing injuries in crimes than firearm injuries.

But do they die instantly without making any noise? Especially armed dudes with twitchy fingers on the triggers?

Headshot is a much more effective way to disable the enemy next to instantly.

It's a back up, not a primary, if your weapon breaks, you run out of ammo, you jam, you need it to be quiet (compared with whatever you have on you). It isn't used in all situations - just like your pistol as a sidearm.

Yes.

But it being exactly that - a back up - isn't the point of this thread.

People wanting deaf and blind enemies coupled with leet knife-takedown moves is.

The knife is a one hit kill, it all depends where the blade penetrates

See my point about a knife being useless in the case of proper hit position and penetration modelling compared to headshots.

How will you aim with a knife?

The whole point of AA is that nothing is scripted when it comes to hit spots.

Adding a leet animation with your soldier killing an enemy in a scripted way is against AA's core gameplay mmmkay

Edited June 7, 2011 by metalcraze

[Tom1 10]

mate he said he does krav maga don't fuck with him :D

[rye1 21]

With using a firearm you have your muzzle blast, muzzle flash, sound of the action and round impacting too... nothing is 100% silent as stated before THIS IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF STEALTH. Stealth is to do a task without being found out essentially in this context.

They could be doing 1,000 other, next to loud objects, a million different scenarios which may allow you to kill them with a knife. Point is they are rare and probably won't happen all too often.

Cut the jugular vein and it's all over. Destroy the medulla oblongata or spinal cord and it is all over. Get the heart and it is all over. The point of so close combat is that you can attack multiple times in a very short period of time - it may not always be quiet enough not to alert enemies.

[Tom1 10]

and bullet fragmentation, tumbling, expansion etc will cause more trauma than a knife wound but otherwise Rye is right.

[Kieran 11]

How will you aim with a knife?

with a mouse i would think :rolleyes:

[metalcraze 290]

With using a firearm you have your muzzle blast, muzzle flash, sound of the action and round impacting too... nothing is 100% silent as stated before THIS IS NOT THE DEFINITION OF STEALTH. Stealth is to do a task without being found out essentially in this context.

If the dude holds a gun and you start slashing at him with a knife wouldn't his finger snap due to reflexes and pull the trigger on his gun oh so hard making much much more noise than silenced MP5 or M9 doing a headshot?

They could be doing 1,000 other, next to loud objects, a million different scenarios which may allow you to kill them with a knife.

What if you will aim with a knife at the jugular vein but hit one pixel below the "sweet spot"? What then?

How will you aim with a knife?

with a mouse i would think :rolleyes:

But how will you see where you are aiming? And how will you attack with a real world precision and force? Should BIS add ironsights to a knife or something?

[rye1 21]

and bullet fragmentation, tumbling, expansion etc will cause more trauma than a knife wound but otherwise Rye is right.

With close combat you do not have to worry about shot placement, especially if you have stealth on your side so it doesn't matter. A knife would destroy a target without needing fragmentation, tumbling or expansion.

To get slashed would mean less damage, essentially it wouldn't do a lot unless it took out the neck or similar. But the longer the slash, the bigger the wound. They would create bigger gaping wounds which are hard to stitch up. They would require sutures deep inside the tissues. They are not life threatening, this is correct.

With a knife you must hit an artery or organ. That's why most knife wounds are within the thoracic cavity as you can easily pierce a lung, pericardial sac or heart itself. Even in the head you would take them out essentially in one move. It is made for penetration, don't underestimate it's damage capacity - this is why more people die from stabbing injuries.

---------- Post added at 10:08 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:05 PM ----------

If the dude holds a gun and you start slashing at him with a knife wouldn't his finger snap due to reflexes and pull the trigger on his gun oh so hard making much much more noise than silenced MP5 or M9 doing a headshot?

What if you will aim with a knife at the jugular vein but hit one pixel below the "sweet spot"? What then?

But how will you see where you are aiming? And how will you attack with a real world precision and force? Should BIS add ironsights to a knife or something?

1) you control the firearm with the supporting arm.

2) you're still going to cause damage, it depends if you slash or thrust into the target and the area it hits

3) no idea, ask the creator of this thread, it could be done on how high you essentially look up or down to where you hit etc. but I haven't thought about it

[Tom1 10]

1) assuming they are right handed, sneak up behind them, use your left arm to cover thair mouth and right arm to slice the underside (soft side) of elbow before stabbing in jugular and slicing the windpipe to ensure the quickest of deaths (so even the slightests of mublings will not be heard). That is a very good place to slice, I am also studying krav maga and my instructor told me (while teaching counter attacks with knives) to slice here as it will disable the arm from tht point down if down deep enough.

2) damage is dealt to head, body, arms and legs in arma 2, whilei would love for this to be improved, it would suit a knife system well, no sweet pixels just big bulky heads and bodies to cut.

3) crosshair, maybe an awesome diagonal slicing crosshair :D

the attack is dealt to the object in the crosshair if at a cerain range.

[wolfbite 8]

You could shoot someone in the head and they could still have a muscle contraction... We've repeatedley stated that we dont have CoD style one hit kills with combat... No one wants the AI toned down either... We are just saying we would like the option to use a knife or bayonette or even the butt of the gun...

It does happen every now and then where it would be handy for a hand to hand engagent to sort things out. Either you're reloading or you've popped round a corner and the guys right in front of you...

You still havent given any reason why it shouldnt be included other tha "DIS ISNT HOLLYCoD"

I imagine aiming wouldnt be too bad since you dont have to snipe them 600m's away...

[liquidpinky 11]

What if you will aim with a knife at the jugular vein but hit one pixel below the "sweet spot"? What then??

Well, if you are doing it correctly you will have his mouth already covered.

Leaves you plenty of time to dig your knife around till you find it, by which time the guys throat and arteries are totally FUBAR anyway.

There are very few totally silent firearms, most will involve locking slides and catch bags for the shell casings or like the Wellrod which is almost completely silent but you wouldn't want to miss with thanks to it being single shot and it also has a very low recommended range of around 24 yds to be effective. Any MGS4 players will recognise it as the dart gun, in RL it is in fact a lethal weapon.

The knife should be in for silent throat cutting but maybe involve a random fail factor to keep things interesting. No COD knife lunges though and running around like an idiot trying to stab people.

[50.cal 10]

Well knifes in the army are more used as a tool than a weapon. You could put it as a bayonet but clearly knifes are more use in Hollywood films than in real combat.

I'm very sorry to see this tread being a disguised knife COD request while there's so much to improve in the stealth area of the game.

Here's a list of few things that would actually improve stealthy missions :

• Ability to be concealed by grass/bushes, shadows, (camo) and a combination of this.
  

• No more super AI target localisation which basically makes the whole group instantly know where you exactly are as long as you kill one of its member, no matter how big the group is nor where they're looking at nor what method/weapon you used from a concealed place or not.
  Your position shouldn't be as easily compromised by distant targets when using sniper rifle or suppressed weapons from a concealed place or when using a proper camo.
  Also your position should not be compromised if you're using satchels!
  

• No more super AI vision which make AI to completely ignore grass or any sorts of concealment blocking their line of sight. here's an example :
  
  
  

If this could be improved, stealthy missions would definitely be better. Actually it would improve the whole gameplay giving us the illusion we are actually fighting against AI having human abilities instead of machines.

[Blackfox34 14]

Here's a list of few things that would actually improve stealthy missions :

Ability to be concealed by grass/bushes, shadows, (camo) and a combination of this.

No more super AI target localisation which basically makes the whole group instantly know where you exactly are as long as you kill one of its member, no matter how big the group is nor where they're looking at nor what method/weapon you used from a concealed place or not.

Your position shouldn't be as easily compromised by distant targets when using sniper rifle or suppressed weapons from a concealed place or when using a proper camo.

Also your position should not be compromised if you're using satchels!

No more super AI vision which make AI to completely ignore grass or any sorts of concealment blocking their line of sight. here's an example :

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tXjWf...layer_embedded

If this could be improved, stealthy missions would definitely be better. Actually it would improve the whole gameplay giving us the illusion we are actually fighting against AI having human abilities instead of machines.

This is so much win! All i want is the ability to sneak around and not get X-rayed through walls and to be able to silently approach someone from behind and kill them. Whether it involves a knife or not is up to them.

[jblackrupert 14]

CoD CoD CoD CoD!!!!!!!!

No no, Battlefield 2: Special forces

[-GR-Operative 10]

yes you could have a silenced pistol but they are bad at accracy and not enough stopping power.

The pistol is not innacurate, the shoter is. Just because the iron sights are small it doesn't mean you can't make a hit from 50-100m.

Off Topic: Talking about small ranges, the shogun is, as a scientific study says, the deadliest weapon within a range of 100m ;)

[Kieran 11]

Operative;1948651']The pistol is not innacurate' date=' the shoter is. Just because the iron sights are small it doesn't mean you can't make a hit from 50-100m.

Off Topic: Talking about small ranges, the shogun is, as a scientific study says, the deadliest weapon within a range of 100m ;)[/quote']

In RL yes,

but not in the game, :rolleyes:

[celery 8]

Operative;1948651']The pistol is not innacurate' date=' the shoter is. Just because the iron sights are small it doesn't mean you can't make a hit from 50-100m.[/quote']

Have you actually ever fired an M9, Makarov, Colt or Å korpion in the game?

[-GR-Operative 10]

Have you actually ever fired an M9, Makarov, Colt or Å korpion in the game?

Are we talking about ARMA2 or speculating and discussing about ARMA3?

ARMA2 assumes the player character is not that good, simple that. It's not the player fault, of course, it's just part of the roleplaying, but, as BIS claims, it's a simulation, and in RL to make hits with a pistol is not that hard.

When Kieran spoke about using the knife instead of the pistol, I thought he was talking about RL, as I suppose ARMA3 is trying to simulate, in some way, the real life thing. Then I said that, because in real life using a pistol is safer than going for the knife (as, I suppose, if you are going to use the knife to kill stealthly an enemy you are already behind him, so shoting him is not that much of an issue).