Bin Laden Is Dead

[NoQuarter 0]

^

One wonders how our (two) German friends will respond to that brutal honesty.

Double-plus good.

[Defunkt 431]

Co-op mission hitting Armaholic in 5... 4...

Should be structured as a time-trial so squads can post their best time (with video evidence).

[Beagle 684]

It shouldn't make any difference whether he was shot in a cave or a millionaire's compound, he admitted his part in 9/11, he's repeatedly called for more acts of violence against civilians, and now America finally tracked him down and killed him for it. Fair enough, no?

We know it does not matter for you (USA) because you (USA) think the whole world is yours...that's why you don't make much friends since the last decade and you still ask yourself why...because you simply ignore the teritory and souvereign of forreign countries...like you (USA) did in the 80's in germany.

I was 13 when the Blackhorses Cav. from Fulda invaded the private boarding shool I lived in at that time...during a manouver the commander in charge insistet on having his HQ at our castle. the soccer field turned into a landing pad for 2 Hueys...the sign showing in english "PRIVATE PROPERTY: NO THROUGH PASSAGEG FOR MILITARY VEHICLES" was simpy ingnored and even Police could no nothing...The german Bundeswehr has and would had never dared to do so. You see...that was in peacetime and in Germany...I really don't want to know what measures are taken in wartime and in middle east but I know a bit how the people there feel.

You still don't know why you loose friends so rapidly?

Because you measure anything on your own measures and ignore anything else.

Edited May 2, 2011 by Beagle

[JdB 151]

Offtopic:

^

One wonders how our (two) German friends will respond to that brutal honesty.

Like that section of the German public usually does, by accusing someone/something of being (a) "nazi!" every other post. You can't discuss world events on a German forum without WW2 and the nazis being dragged into it inevitably at some point. The same is true for forums/sites in any other language as well to an extent though, it shows bad debating skills (and/or lack of willingness to sustain the dialogue ;)), which is ironic obviously. Can't even do it on a simple internet forum, but do want to apply it to solve all of the problems in the entire world.

because you simply ignore the teritory and souvereign of forreign countries...like you (USA) did in the 80's in germany.

Of course, the US and allies could have decided not to deter the USSR from capturing the rest of Germany as well. I'm sure the Soviets would have treated Germany much better, like they did with the Eastern part of it. Impoverishing it, leaving it up to good old capitalism to pay for the cost of bringing the DDR up to par with the standard of the BRD, which is still in progress. Socialism did so well there ...

Edited May 3, 2011 by JdB

[Mr. Charles 22]

Of course, that is why i mentioned the nazis and ww2 in tje first place. Bin Laden was murdered in a coujtry, which is not at war with the US "after a firefight" as Obama said. It was never an option to capture him alive.

please, this socialism thing is purely brought up by you. Just stay on topic

Edited May 3, 2011 by Mr. Charles

[Beagle 684]

Can't remember that I called someone a Nazi in this forum in the last 10 Years. But it is true that germans in common, at least the generation from the 70's and 80's was raised with a big portion of pacifism. We lived in the nuclear buffer zone for 40 years...pacifism and deascalation policy was our only survival tool...that's not forgotten and that's why grmany is still very eager in bringing war to foreign countries and cultures...the scars from WWII were still clearly visible when I was younger...and on remote places still are.

[NoQuarter 0]

I was 13 when the Blackhorses Cav. from Fulda invaded the private boarding shool I lived in at that time...

Oh, the stories I could tell of all of the maneuver damage we inflicted during the various REFORGERS, FTXs, etc., but I suppose that that would irrepairably damage our relations.

What has this -your childhood nightmares- got to do with this topic other than the usual hand-wringing.

Rhetorical.

[Mr. Charles 22]

It shows the american attitude?

[Hans Ludwig 0]

Is it possible to do a DNA test in 24 hours?

[Beagle 684]

It shows the american attitude?

Only s US attitude, not a american. I had a canadian girlfriend from Montreal, she showed no such attitude nor did her folks so the cause for it must be a bit further down the America map.

---------- Post added at 12:36 AM ---------- Previous post was at 12:33 AM ----------

Is it possible to do a DNA test in 24 hours?

the kind of test you do for paternity testing...yes. But that means they cold have killed a Bin Laden first cousin and the test would still be positive.

[JdB 151]

It shows the american attitude?

I was reading a book on counter-insurgency the other day. It basically stated (condensing 290 pages into a few sentences, so there might be a "slight" lack of context :p) that in order to win hearts and minds, you don't primarily need superiority of arms and tactics, better trained and educated men, better financial and economic power or a superior ideology. Above all you need to have a good leader actually present on the scene that both understands how to apply these factors most effectively, while still managing to prevent any of them from unnecessarily agitating the local populace too much.

It might have been that the commander in factual command of these exercises was not aware of these sensitivities, or was used (through the then current doctrine) to disregard the feelings of the population. It doesn't have anything to do with any cultural or national attitude, it was just the standard procedure at the time to prioritize what the armed forces felt needed doing over the desires of the civilians. You wouldn't go negotiating with the locals because you wouldn't have the time to do that if a tidal wave of Soviet tanks was approaching either. In that case, rolling a tank through someone's lovingly planted flowerbed was the obvious thing to do if it meant optimal use of the little time they had. "Lead me, follow me, or get out of my way". Everything was secondary to the military in case of a breakout through the Fulda gap, and exercises need to be as realistic as possible, otherwise what's the point in doing them. If some civilian property was damaged and some people agitated, that was ok.

Since about 15-20 years, it's much more of a balance between the two since the threat level of direct invasion in Western Europe is far less, and that, as well as the increased media scrutiny, has trickled down into how soldiers are expected to behave on foreign deployments as well.

And there is absolutely no sense in comparing how civilians behave to how members of the armed forces behave, since the priorities are very different, as are the rules, regulations and restrictions.

But that means they cold have killed a Bin Laden first cousin and the test would still be positive.

The SF examined the face on site, they did computerized facial recognition tests, the DNA of several family members was compared to rule out a mix-up, and now they say they're 99% positive that it is OBL himself. I believe 99,3% is the most accurate result you can get with a DNA test.

Edited May 3, 2011 by JdB

[GRS 10]

Whats this, Europeans bashing America on the Bis forums? NO WAY!

[W0lle 1048]

I know that America bashing is very popular here in Germany, while at the same time consuming American products is just fine. However here is not the place for this crap and you were advised earlier to not drag this into a political discussion.

If you want to bash America for what they had to do (in their opinion) then now it's the time to find another place for doing so, I'm sure you will find plenty. I have enough of this crap now.

Osama was not murdered, the coward was shot in the head while using a female as shield to catch the bullets for him.

because that compound was not a legal combat zone nor did the USA have any kind of authority in Pakistan. Thing would have lookes better had they found him in a cave in Afghanistan. Right now we only have naother questionable action of US "we can go everywhere, stay out of the way or die" world police that is know for shoot first, ask later.

And what exactly is a legal combat zone? How do you know that there was no secret agreement made with Pakistani authorities? And as far as I know the Geneva convention does not apply to terrorist organizations.

That is the typical stupid anti-america bullshit we have here: "World police", "shoot first, ask later". You forgot to mention cowboys. :rolleyes:

I wonder if Osama and his guys would would have killed 3000+ people here if you still would cry about him and bitch about the "oh so evil world police". No you probably would have called for them then.

[Beagle 684]

Whats this, Europeans bashing America on the Bis forums? NO WAY!

That's not bashing. I still see this as contructive critizism. Isn't it better to hear something like: "Hey dude I'm not sure if you know that you're not so wellcome because you behave like a Lumberjack" from someone that is still an Allied instead of wondering why youre shot at wherever you show up somewhere.

Really, quite often I have the impression that a lot of US citizens still do not know that the renown of the USA did go down rapidly since a decade.

But whenever someone lays the finger at that wound hes a bickering traitor.

I'm done in this thread, over and out!

[JdB 151]

over and out!

Nitpicking I know, but "over and out" is never used in the military/radio communications, since "over" means giving the other person the ability to speak, while "out" means you're done with the conversation. That's a contradiction like black/white, cat/mouse, fire/water etc.

I wonder if Osama and his guys would would have killed 3000+ people here if you still would cry about him and bitch about the "oh so evil world police". No you probably would have called for them then.

I don't think Beagle would, but I'm sure there is a section of the German public that would say things like "It's our own fault, we have only ourselves to blame", "We brought this onto ourselves" etc. Not a healthy attitude to keep the head stuck in the sands of history, but it is what it is. Some will stand up to a bully, others will cower before him for whatever reason.

Edited May 3, 2011 by JdB

[Beagle 684]

Nitpicking I know, but "over and out" is never used in the military/radio communications, since "over" means giving the other person the ability to speak, while "out" means you're done with the conversation. That's a contradiction like black/white, cat/mouse, fire/water etc.

O.K. but I could write

right?

I really don't want to fill the role of the Advocatus Diaboli any longer in this discussion.

[NoQuarter 0]

Really, quite often I have the impression that a lot of US citizens still do not know that the renown of the USA did go down rapidly since a decade.

You are misinformed in this regard, the opinions and others like you are well known, and have been for some time.

Your apparent confusion stems from the fact that those opinions have been weighed, measured, and discounted for roughly the same amount of time.

Peace.

Edited May 3, 2011 by NoQuarter

[Beagle 684]

You are misinformed in this regard, the opinions and others like you are well known, and have been for some time.

Your apparent confusion stems from the fact that those opinions have been weighed, measured, and discounted for roughly the same amount of time.

Yes I know. I read the articel about the wikileaks files in the "Spiegel" concerning how german leading politicians are judged by US ambassador personel. And I still remind you...that's part of the trouble.

---------- Post added at 01:15 AM ---------- Previous post was at 01:11 AM ----------

I don't think Beagle would, but I'm sure there is a section of the German public that would say things like "It's our own fault, we have only ourselves to blame", "We brought this onto ourselves" etc. Not a healthy attitude to keep the head stuck in the sands of history, but it is what it is. Some will stand up to a bully, others will cower before him for whatever reason.

It's amazing how well you know your neighbours... you're spot on!

[minimalaco 30]

fake...

[call_911 10]

Now I lay me down to sleep...one less terrorist this world does keep...with all my heart I give my thanks...to those in uniform regardless of ranks...you serve our country and serve it well...with humble hearts your stories tell...so as I rest my weary eyes...while freedom rings our flag still flies...you give your all, do what you must...with God we live and God we trust....Amen. ♥

[Haystack15 10]

I'm done in this thread, over and out!

Quick question, :confused: Why is he still replying in this post? :confused:

[Beagle 684]

Quick question, :confused: Why is he still replying in this post? :confused:

Im over with discussing US military actions and politics since I would only repeat myself, But im open for new input on this topic ;)

[maturin 12]

Just look at this and tell me why they fought a war against terrorism:

http://www.usdebtclock.org/

Call me a nutjob conspiracist but damn, this is obvious

So we have spent hundreds of billions of dollars in a war on terror because we are hundreds of billions of dollars in debt?

I don't have anything against conspiracy theorists perse, I just can't stand people who never form a coherent thought and just smile smugly at people with their one innuendo.

Anyways, I have heard from a different news source that the woman killed was a "human shield" willingly. She was trying to prevent her husband from being shot. But who knows.

Also, locals have described three helicopters, including a Chinook. Could the downed tail section be an Apache? Some guy at the scene identified it as such, and said there might have been a rocket.

Edited May 3, 2011 by maturin

[160thSixgun 106]

Apaches, if present, would likely have been at a higher altitude and moving a bit faster than hovering MH-60s, who were rolling to a hover for fastrope insertion. Did this helo nick a power line? Did the pilot experience loss of a/c control? Was there groundfire? We may never know for a while. Frankly the only thing that would completely satisfy me would be to read the entire AAR. Probably won't be made public until I'm a very old man.

[maturin 12]

;1910823']Apaches' date=' if present, would likely have been at a higher altitude and moving a bit faster than hovering MH-60s, who were rolling to a hover for fastrope insertion. .[/quote']

That's what I thought. But since a Chinook was hovering over the compound itself, maybe the Apache wanted to come in very close so it could use its cannon, if needed, with extreme precision to avoid hitting the operatives on the ground. And the flat stabilizers in the photo resemble an Apache more than the slanted stabilizers of an MH-60.