Less content/features more polish please

[blurgh 10]

Whilst i admire the scope and ambition of the Arma series i feel BI are being too over ambitious for their own good.

I would happily sacrifice some units/content/features in order to have a more polished experience.

There are just way too many bugs that still exist from previous arma games and from the original operation flashpoint.

Why not spend less time adding features and instead polish the ones which already exist such as:

- the terrible optimisation (i shouldn't have to defrag my HD to get half decent performance and a few trees and houses shouldn't make my FPS drop by about 15-20fps...)

- player movement/reload/death animations

- the weird texture issue you get when zooming in on trees in the distance

- the poor netcode

- the voice acting

- the overall presentation

It would be a truly great game if it just had a bit more polish and wasn't so rough around the edges. Instead of putting out substandard DLC why not put more effort into tweaking the things i mentioned above, the things which really stop a good game from being a truly great one.

Im sure a few hardcore arma nerds will cry at the thought of having a few features ditched but if it leads to a more polished experience then i think it would ultimately attract more people to the game than it would alienate a few hardcore fans.

I know so many people who checked out arma only to ditch it because of its lack of polish. All agreed it had great potential but after being used to playing polished games its really hard to go to something like arma which constantly feels like a "work in progress".

Anyone else agree ?

Edited January 11, 2011 by blurgh

[ffur2007slx2_5 11]

Whilst i admire the scope and ambition of the Arma series i feel BI are being too over ambitious for their own good.

I would happily sacrifice some units/content/features in order to have a more polished experience.

There are just way too many bugs that still exist from previous arma games and from the original operation flashpoint.

Why not spend less time adding features and instead polish the ones which already exist such as:

- the terrible optimisation (i shouldn't have to defrag my HD to get half decent performance and a few trees and houses shouldn't make my FPS drop by about 15-20fps...)

- player movement/reload/death animations

- the weird texture issue you get when zooming in on trees in the distance

- the poor netcode

- the voice acting

- the overall presentation

It would be a truly great game if it just had a bit more polish and wasn't so rough around the edges. Instead of putting out substandard DLC why not put more effort into tweaking the things i mentioned above, the things which really stop a good game from being a truly great one.

I know so many people who checked out arma only to ditch it because of its lack of polish. All agreed it had great potential but after being used to playing polished games its really hard to go to something like arma which constantly feels like a "work in progress".

Anyone else agree ?

From so many frequently published beta you can get the evidence that BI are working hard on making the game ideal, include fixing bugs and polishing.

At the same time, they need to public new toys to earn their bread, it is normal, every company will choose to do lke this, so I don't think BI pays more atention on their ambitious work rather than polish the game better, it just need time.

[Star Four One 10]

Agree with the polish, however, this game is always a work in progress, thats actually one of the great things about it - it keeps building upon itself.

It's hard to really expect a "polished" game considering the size and magnitude of ArmA. Instead of a map you can crawl across, a couple of guns, maybe a vehicle or two - and usually zero AI, we get a dynamic full scale battlefield that shoots for realism. We get Day and night cycles, a world that never ends, a mission editor, lots of weapons, pretty superb AI (comparing to ANY other game on the market)... etc. To nitpick about voice acting (Although it could be much better) and not take in the positives in contrast to other games... is wrong!

Personally, I would like to see both fronts conquered at the same time. The whole DLC BIS has introduced is a great idea to continue to make money off quality models - and encourages new mods and missions to expand ArmA's community.

So? Does it have to be one or the other?

S41

[camelman 0]

There are just way too many bugs that still exist from previous arma games and from the original operation flashpoint.

Please name them, every couple of weeks we read about these mysterious bugs that are carried over even from OFP.

- the terrible optimisation (i shouldn't have to defrag my HD to get half decent performance and a few trees and houses shouldn't make my FPS drop by about 15-20fps...)

- player movement/reload/death animations

- the weird texture issue you get when zooming in on trees in the distance

- the poor netcode

- the voice acting

- the overall presentation

You are aware that not only ArmA benefits from a defragmented drive, yes?

I also don't lose 20 fps by a few trees and houses. Maybe reduce your graphics settings a bit? The game looks pretty good on medium settings as well - if you are into playing the game that is and not into 'look mom I can run it on all maxed out @ 100fps zomg zomg'.

The netcode could be better that's true. The voice acting is much better than it was in ArmA1. Maybe you should realize that it's simply impossible to record every possible sentence, at least as long as games are not delivered on 2 Blueray discs.

It would be a truly great game if it just had a bit more polish and wasn't so rough around the edges. Instead of putting out substandard DLC why not put more effort into tweaking the things i mentioned above, the things which really stop a good game from being a truly great one.

Maybe that 'substandard' DLC is required in order to continue the game at all? And please define what 'standard DLC' is.

Im sure a few hardcore arma nerds will cry at the thought of having a few features ditched but if it leads to a more polished experience then i think it would ultimately attract more people to the game than it would alienate a few hardcore fans.

I have a very polished experience, but I don't need to have every detail on max, I also don't run an FPS counter every time to measure where I lose 1 or 2 fps and then make a drama out of it. And I also don't need 50 different reload animations and 150 death animations. I play the game and focus on the mission instead searching for problems everywhere.

I know so many people who checked out arma only to ditch it because of its lack of polish. All agreed it had great potential but after being used to playing polished games its really hard to go to something like arma which constantly feels like a "work in progress".

What 'polished games'? COD and BF with their tiny maps compared to Takistan and Chernarus? It's very easy to make everything perfect on their maps. And name me a game that has seen so many patches and improvements as ArmA2 and OA did and still do. Oh wait, these 'polished games' don't need any patches. Instead shortly after release the next full-price title is produced to milk the customers even more.

I like the 'work in progress' actually.

Anyone else agree ?

Not completely, really not.

[mosh 0]

...

- the terrible optimisation (i shouldn't have to defrag my HD to get half decent performance and a few trees and houses shouldn't make my FPS drop by about 15-20fps...)

yes you should, it is what defragmenting is for... :rolleyes:

Get some SSDs if you don't want to defrag anymore

- player movement/reload/death animations

would like to see someone reloading in MP, actually thought someone was cheating because I didn't see them reload a rocket... so yes on the reload, the movement/death are fine though in my opinion

- the weird texture issue you get when zooming in on trees in the distance

don't notice or not bothered by it

- the poor netcode

I play mainly PvP (no AI) or small coop (very little AI) so no, don't notice it as a problem

- the voice acting

couldn't care less

- the overall presentation

once again, couldn't care less... but not real sure what you mean

Anyone else agree ?

on one point, yes I do... on the other points, sorry... no

[maddogx 13]

Blurgh does have a point, you know. Arma2 may offer infinite replayability and an amazingly huge scope, but the one thing that has always been missing from the Arma series is polish. People nowadays are spoilt by the seemingly immaculate sheen of the triple-A titles (COD/BF), which may not deliver much depth or replayability, but still feel more finished and thus more easily enjoyable while the novelty lasts. Even I, being a long time fan of BIS games, have to admit that the clunkiness of Arma 2 does turn me off occasionally, even though I always find myself coming back for more.

It's really unfortunate that the PC games market has turned out this way. All the big money is put into console ports and yearly throw-away McShooters, while the serious and deep games are left to be created by indie developers that just don't have the huge wads of cash needed for extensive polish and QA.

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of a middle ground.

[johncage 30]

i shouldn't have to defrag my HD to get half decent performance and a few trees and houses shouldn't make my FPS drop by about 15-20fps...

most games have quite a short lod switch range, while this game uses the first lod levels for many of the objectives up to a distance of 60-70s meters. this is significantly more than say, call of duty, for example, which can switch lods from just 15 feet away.

in dense forests, this is quite problematic.

it's also difficult to get this game to run smoothly. playing at 40-50 frames per second can sometimes actually feel sluggish because one area can have very little detail and smoothly, yet another area may contain a forest or city. from a gameplay perspective, sudden changes in fps can produce a disconcerting effect.

contrary to popular belief, this is not solved by turning on vertical synchronization. the game may be limited to a lower framerate, but can contrribute to significant performance degradation.

i would suggest going towards a direction of innovating lod switch procedures and lod level optimization. there is no need for the lod switch to occur at 50 meters. at a distance of just 30 feet, you can hardly tell the difference between lod level 1 and lod level 2. lod level detail for non-descript objects could also be a little less detailed and use lower detailed lods.

[pooroldspike 128]

Whilst i admire the scope and ambition of the Arma series i feel BI are being too over ambitious for their own good.

There are just way too many bugs that still exist from previous arma games and from the original operation flashpoint.

Why not spend less time adding features and instead polish the ones which already exist....

I agree 100 per cent..:)

[tpw 2315]

I personally feel the BIS has hit on a pretty reasonable balance between new content (some better than others obviously...) to bring $ in, and bug fixing and polishing to keep users happy.

No-one but the most rabid BIS fanboy would deny that there are aspects of performance and presentation which could do with a fair amount of work, but if I compare the performance I get today with the latest beta patch to that of just a few months ago it's pretty obvious that some major steps have been taken in the right direction. The game feels faster, smoother, with less flickering z-fighting and LOD switching. The AI continues to improve and more of the really annoying bugs seem to be squashed with each beta.

I've never experienced BIS's level of developer support with any other game (or any other software for that matter), so I'm confident that the engine will eventually do the game justice. I cant help but wonder though what the reception of Arma2 would have been like if it was released as polished as it is now...

[Zipper5 74]

People nowadays are spoilt by the seemingly immaculate sheen of the triple-A titles (COD/BF), which may not deliver much depth or replayability, but still feel more finished and thus more easily enjoyable while the novelty lasts.

That's the whole point though, isn't it? They feel finished, perhaps lasting through the entirety of your first playthrough. Play with, for example, BlOps for longer than a day and you'll see its state could easily be equated to that of Arma 2's. What they are, are masters of disguise, not masters of game-making. The difference between them and BIS is they have the pools of money and resources to hide their issues behind fancy rendering effects.

The only developer I can think of that's both a master of disguise and a master of game-making is Valve, but you get some nice liberties when you're both your own publisher and developer, which most developers don't have the luxury of. ;)

Edited January 11, 2011 by Zipper5

[PuFu 4591]

I see your POV Zipper.

But then again, i have to agree with MadDox. I am making no comparison further with any other games, but i do agree with one fact: A2/OA is not a polished game. It does have a lot of rough edges.

If you want your game to be seen as a finished product, you need more time spent streamlining the users game experience. From the animations and theior reactions to user input (which do look real but are very clunky at times) to the UI, and scalability.

It is a great engine underneath it all, with has a lot of power and opens a lot of possibility. For most of us around here, that is enough, but for the first time players, even if they put a lot of time into learning it, the simple fact that they need to tweak the game's configs, startups etc means they can't get the fullest out of the box, without further tinkering...

[vilas 473]

Agree with the polish, however, this game is always a work in progress, thats actually one of the great things about it - it keeps building upon itself.

agree, like OFP, it is building on and on and on and on :) as mods, addons etc.

but i don't care about reload anims, voice acting etc.

i was satisfied with OFP , Arma has much more features

and if you say about optimalisation, show me another game when you have such hugh open areas and so much objects

and remember, new games require new PC,@blurgh how good is you PC ? what resolution you use if you have 20 fps, i have 27-31 and it is enough for fluent gameplay

[metalcraze 290]

People who moan about bad optimization just forget that in linear corridor shooters or relatively-big-but-empty-map ones that are constantly being churn out AIs get spawned 40 meters away from the player and disappear into nothingness after you moved 40 meters away from them. That goes for bodies and vehicle debris. Now try to spawn 200 of them in any of those games and see how they handle that load, considering that in OA 200 are all over the map.

There is always some room for the optimization though, but the scale of OA is much bigger and more demanding than in some multiplatform game made for 5 years old Xbox360 hardware.

[Big Dawg KS 6]

I wouldn't say there's any reason why the community would not want a more polished ArmA, as I certainly would. In a way I kind of mostly agree with the OP, but I also know that it's a difficult thing for BIS to do and I have my doubts that focusing on polish and not new content/features will pay off for BI.

One day down the line though I do feel as if BI will have to sort of "reboot" the series; stop building on what they have and start working on something new. Perhaps there will be an oppertunity to make a really polished game then (if it does happen).

[Baff1 0]

I think they probably are improving it as fast as they can already. I certainly see improvements every release.

But essentially, I agree. Less is more.

Polish should be the priority of their focus.

[#momo# 10]

One annoying thing that was in Arma1 from start and is still the same with latest patch: AI-Driving Skill, especially when you are gunner in a tank or lav and you have an ai as driver. You order him to drive straight forward into cover and he drives back first.

However without ai, the game seems polished to me.

[kklownboy 43]

Why do i have to choose? I want both.

[dale0404 5]

Everything said above this post does have some merit but maybe I would have put it differently.

But please remember that BIS are the only developer that I can think of that bring out patch after patch after patch which improve the game in some small way. BIS do not need to do this but they do it for the love of the game and the community.

You might be saying "but what about Battlefield Heroes"? They bring out patches. You would be correct there but what do the patches do? They give a "Spy" new toys, they give something else something new to play with but they actually do not improve the gameplay.

BIS are doing this (just lately) at a rate of 1 or 2 patches weekly. Cant name another developer that does that.

To what Zipper5 says, he is spot on.

[lozz08 10]

Personally I am just really thankful that BIS exists; this game has given me more enjoyment than any other going back to ofp till now. And I have real faith in The company.

It really excites me thinking about the future and what it holds for these games.

If I was rich I would donate a lot of money to them.

PS I would have thought that BIS' major earnings were from VBS and VBS2 as they sold it to the military?

[Flash Thunder 10]

Arma 2 Combined Operations Plus all the DLC's is an amazing package already content wise and feature wise.

The list goes on and on and on it is really amazing what BIS has created.

I agree, this game needs alot of focus on polishing what we already have in the game at the moment as to me it already feels like the complete mil sim experience especially when you add mods like ACE2 and others in the mix.

AI sector of the game needs alot of improvement

small details like seeing shards of glass when you shoot out windows (individually being able to shoot out windows instead of all the windows becoming broken).

Texture improvements on weapons and gear, maybe higher polycounts on some of the weapons.

Improved hand models (they look really bad :p )

weapon loadout functionality without init script for people who want to do fast loadouts in editor.

overall improved decals and particles on weapons (muzzle flashes, smoke from chambers)

Vanilla sounds and voice overs could deffinetly be more improved.

The only real feature I still want and would pay for is 3D editor fully working, other than that im fine with Arma 2:CO this game truely has it all unlike some other game that was trying to compete with arma 2 awhile back but failed miserably.

[krz9000 10]

i played dragon rising again yesterday after not touching it for almost a year...templargfx just released an update to his islandwarfare and his ai tweaks and the game plays great!! the last half year i tried to get into arma but i gave up now. its way too bugged to enjoy. i prefer a limited but more polished game to something overambitious but bugged. thx and good bye

[kklownboy 43]

...

lol. Read my sig.

I am glad some players find "Replayability" in one map/mission once a year polish.... Wait was there a "official update? Right... never will be. DEAD end there full of Polish...

"Replayability" has always been the strong suit for BIS. Its hard to get bored, ever playing a BIS game. Still why do i have to choose?

One mans polish, is another mans "dead game"..lol

[Zipper5 74]

i played dragon rising again yesterday after not touching it for almost a year...templargfx just released an update to his islandwarfare and his ai tweaks and the game plays great!! the last half year i tried to get into arma but i gave up now. its way too bugged to enjoy. i prefer a limited but more polished game to something overambitious but bugged. thx and good bye

Thanks for your oh-so-valuable contribution. Good bye.

[dale0404 5]

i played dragon rising again yesterday after not touching it for almost a year...templargfx just released an update to his islandwarfare and his ai tweaks and the game plays great!! the last half year i tried to get into arma but i gave up now. its way too bugged to enjoy. i prefer a limited but more polished game to something overambitious but bugged. thx and good bye

As Zipper5 so eloquently put, bye and enjoy your "polished" game.

Damn that made me chuckle.

[lozz08 10]

Yes, I have to say, that if you are a fan of milsims and you prefer the experience DR has to offer then... There really is something wrong with you...