Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[Mark XIII (DayZ) 18]

Aren't you a lucky soul......

[dmarkwick 261]

Aren't you a lucky soul......

I guess another way of looking at it is: what sort of community would you rather live in? :)

[jw custom 56]

so do we break into the house next door to borrow some sugar or do we ask first....

Do we ask for permission to go down to the supermarket to look at the sugar or do we just do it...

I don't feel like a burglar when i have looked at other peoples code, i have looked at ACE code many times to get my missions working properly i have no issues what-so-ever about that, should i?

[Fox '09 14]

i could actually do that. i live in such a small place no one needs to lock ther houses or cars.

i could basicly walk in to my neighbors house when hes not home and borrow some sugar. and leave a note that i'll come back later with new sugar to them.

again. stop with this stupid comparisons.

breaking into houses. cars. etc etc.

lucky you, if i did that i'd have the police at my door in an hour :o

the comparisons dont' quite work if you cant relate to them , i agree, but most of us can

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I wonder how many here can honestly say they paid for every mp3 they have.

Or more "trivially", which is the comparison here to "theft".

Or how many mission makers actually asked for permission to include certain songs in missions. Or do you prefer missions without songs? I don't expect mission makers to be musicians, do you?

Or how many model makers actually asked for permissions to derive camo images into textures. Or do you prefer models with naked colors or obviously handcrafted textures? I don't expect modelers to be texture experts (although they tend to have fairly good knowledge), do you?

Or how many sound modders actually asked youtube/uploader for permission to use a sound from a video upload as a source. Or do you prefer sounds created solely with a synthesizer software? I don't expect sound modders to be sound engineers recording every sound they use, do you?

Or did you assume "fair use" (at any time through your career, even if you consider yourself a true professional now), like we all did in the past and most of us would like to keep for the future? Keep in mind that if someone takes from a commercial package you paid for, it is the thief who can get into potential trouble for it, not you.

I think these are much fairer comparisons than "car" and "house".

[Sekra 10]

@Zipper5: Thank you for removing stuff from my post that apparently others can mention and I cannot. So to refrain what I tried to say; If lockable pbo's are introduced and you believe your model is stolen you could use these tools that I apparently cannot mention to check if it truly is your model. This is in no way enabling piracy or theft btw. you are just looking after your rights. I was under the impression that the words I chose were a general description of the tools discussed many times before in this thread, even by Dwarden, RKSL-Rock, JW Custom and others. Doing a search on this thread gave me 22 hits. So why am I suddenly the one who has been targeted when I actually mentioned the one and only reason to use the for legit reasons?

[jw custom 56]

I was under the impression that the words I chose were a general description of the tools discussed many times before in this thread, even by Dwarden, RKSL-Rock, JW Custom and others.

I have not mentioned any tool names in this thread, i've named a pbo extract tool name in the editing forums once long time ago i think and thats about it.

If lockable pbo's are introduced and you believe your model is stolen you could use these tools that I apparently cannot mention to check if it truly is your model.

This arise my original question:

So in that case it's okay to snoop around in other peoples work?

[Dwarden 1125]

How about this:

1) Remove the optionality of using signed addons on a server. Every server addon MUST have a signature file (.bikey <-> .bisign pair) for any addons they use.

2) Improve the functionality of the .bikey <-> .bisign pair so that it cannot be faked like now.

3) Remove the option to "re-sign" binarized addons just by unpboing and repboing them with your own .biprivatekey.

This way you can still poke around as much as you want and play as much as you want in SP but it removes the option to use those edited addons in multiplayer games. Hell I would remove the whole option of re-pboing a pbo if the files are already binarized.

1. you already have this ability, server admin decides what he want's to be ran, enforcing signature system in MP will no change anything related to IP theft

2. even if you made most secure system for network communication the "can't be faked/crack" part will apply only till someone figure it out and crack it ...

so while it can be improved or fixed to avoid e.g. actual methods of fake signatures used, it can't be unbreakable (not even with own gamingOS and using encrypted traffic tunnel)

3.i don't see how resigning keys for MP has anything to do preventing Ip theft ...

[dmarkwick 261]

@Zipper5: Thank you for removing stuff from my post that apparently others can mention and I cannot. So to refrain what I tried to say; If lockable pbo's are introduced and you believe your model is stolen you could use these tools that I apparently cannot mention to check if it truly is your model. This is in no way enabling piracy or theft btw. you are just looking after your rights. I was under the impression that the words I chose were a general description of the tools discussed many times before in this thread, even by Dwarden, RKSL-Rock, JW Custom and others. Doing a search on this thread gave me 22 hits. So why am I suddenly the one who has been targeted when I actually mentioned the one and only reason to use the for legit reasons?

Do you not see the irony in suggesting the use of a tool you say must not be used because it infringes your rights? This is aside from the notion that it renders the use of casual encryption useless.

[W0lle 1052]

@Zipper5: Thank you for removing stuff from my post that apparently others can mention and I cannot. So to refrain what I tried to say; If lockable pbo's are introduced and you believe your model is stolen you could use these tools that I apparently cannot mention to check if it truly is your model. This is in no way enabling piracy or theft btw. you are just looking after your rights. I was under the impression that the words I chose were a general description of the tools discussed many times before in this thread, even by Dwarden, RKSL-Rock, JW Custom and others. Doing a search on this thread gave me 22 hits. So why am I suddenly the one who has been targeted when I actually mentioned the one and only reason to use the for legit reasons?

First off, we do not allow any discussion on how the forums are moderated in the public. You are long enough around to know the rules.

Second, no one is targeting you alone. By now all posts which mention that 'term that should not mentioned' are edited.

Everyone please do not mention such software anymore. It is not necessary to point more people towards it.

Those who know about them will use them anyway, be it for legit or not so legit purposes.

[Sekra 10]

1. you already have this ability, server admin decides what he want's to be ran, enforcing signature system in MP will no change anything related to IP theft

2. even if you made most secure system for network communication the "can't be faked/crack" part will apply only till someone figure it out and crack it ...

so while it can be improved or fixed to avoid e.g. actual methods of fake signatures used, it can't be unbreakable (not even with own gamingOS and using encrypted traffic tunnel)

3.i don't see how resigning keys for MP has anything to do preventing Ip theft ...

These measures were not meant to prevent IP theft to sell models on turbosquid and other sites. These were a suggestion to prevent usage of addons that are edited without permission in multiplayer inside the community. I personally think that if you are above the notion of simply asking permission to edit other peoples addons then the possibility of editing them for their own "profit" (even if not monetary profit) should be taken away. Or do you too think that if someone releases an addon, anyone can edit and distribute it any way they want even if the original author might for example say: "No, I'm not going to make an ACE version of my addon and I don't want you making one either"? (please note this is not an attack against ACE, its just a simple example of one of the most requested things often related with non-ACE addons)

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Considering he had a ;) at the end of that line, I think he did realize the irony. I thought that was the whole point of that comment...

@Sekra: Asking for permission is based on significance. If I copy a 5 line create unit thingy, I might consider it trivial and expected to find just about anywhere, even if I happened to stumble upon it there. So no, I wouldn't ask for permission. And no, I wouldn't consider it a bad thing either. I would consider copying some grand system (like revive or guidance systems or whatever) anything but trivial, and ask for permissions. But not until I've actually tried and checked that I could even use it in the first place. Having to ask for the most insignificant things in the world is just nuts and totally kills the joy of doing this.

Edited November 6, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[jw custom 56]

I personally think that if you are above the notion of simply asking permission to edit other peoples addons then the possibility of editing them for their own "profit" (even if not monetary profit) should be taken away. Or do you too think that if someone releases an addon, anyone can edit and distribute it any way they want even if the original author might for example say: "No, I'm not going to make an ACE version of my addon and I don't want you making one either"? (please note this is not an attack against ACE, its just a simple example of one of the most requested things often related with non-ACE addons)

And how often does this happen, is this really such a huge problem that we need to hide/encrypt our code?

If someone is releasing your work or someone else without permission contact a moderator and i'll asure you the right actions will be made.

...also the community will support you heavily on this matter.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

...also the community will support you heavily on this matter.

Bullshit. If somebody speaks up about their addon being ripped off, or pieces of it hacked out and put into another, nobody cares. They even flame the original addonmaker, hell some send death threats because the addon gets removed/is never released.

As an example... Do you remember when the Chinook was first released for ArmA 2? The version that was released was the version created by Wld427 of PRACS, which had been ripped from the ArmA 1 mod without any permissions, ported to arma 2, and released as their own work without wld being mentioned. It was later resolved, released, and has been downloaded many times since then.

The thing is, as soon as people found out Wld had had it removed they started flaming and insulting him both here and on armaholic.

The community doesn't give a shit about where the addon comes from, or who actually made it. All people want are more addons, faster.

[xmongx 0]

Bullshit. If somebody speaks up about their addon being ripped off, or pieces of it hacked out and put into another, nobody cares. They even flame the original addonmaker, hell some send death threats because the addon gets removed/is never released.

As an example... Do you remember when the Chinook was first released for ArmA 2? The version that was released was the version created by Wld427 of PRACS, which had been ripped from the ArmA 1 mod without any permissions, ported to arma 2, and released as their own work without wld being mentioned. It was later resolved, released, and has been downloaded many times since then.

The thing is, as soon as people found out Wld had had it removed they started flaming and insulting him both here and on armaholic.

The community doesn't give a shit about where the addon comes from, or who actually made it. All people want are more addons, faster.

And of course that work was taken from AfrographiX, something that wld427 would not have been able to achieve without being able to open the original pbo ;)

[jw custom 56]

Bullshit. If somebody speaks up about their addon being ripped off, or pieces of it hacked out and put into another, nobody cares. They even flame the original addonmaker, hell some send death threats because the addon gets removed/is never released.

As an example... Do you remember when the Chinook was first released for ArmA 2? The version that was released was the version created by Wld427 of PRACS, which had been ripped from the ArmA 1 mod without any permissions, ported to arma 2, and released as their own work without wld being mentioned. It was later resolved, released, and has been downloaded many times since then.

The thing is, as soon as people found out Wld had had it removed they started flaming and insulting him both here and on armaholic.

The community doesn't give a shit about where the addon comes from, or who actually made it. All people want are more addons, faster.

So this has happened once and you witnessed it, surely we need to encrypt everything now and hire a addon police too.

I've seen many times people have been confronted about stuff they have released not being entirely there's and the community/moderators has acted on it.

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Did I use my post as an argument for encryption? No I did not. It was simply a response to your commebt about the community

[jw custom 56]

Did I use my post as an argument for encryption? No I did not. It was simply a response to your commebt about the community

How on earth could i tell if the community is bullet proof... of course it isn't just like many other things aren't.

I'm saying that the community and moderators are doing a darn good job keep things running fair. According to you the community "doesn't give a shit"....nice.

[dmarkwick 261]

Bullshit. If somebody speaks up about their addon being ripped off, or pieces of it hacked out and put into another, nobody cares. They even flame the original addonmaker, hell some send death threats because the addon gets removed/is never released.

As an example... Do you remember when the Chinook was first released for ArmA 2? The version that was released was the version created by Wld427 of PRACS, which had been ripped from the ArmA 1 mod without any permissions, ported to arma 2, and released as their own work without wld being mentioned. It was later resolved, released, and has been downloaded many times since then.

The thing is, as soon as people found out Wld had had it removed they started flaming and insulting him both here and on armaholic.

The community doesn't give a shit about where the addon comes from, or who actually made it. All people want are more addons, faster.

The important people care, the ones who handle general distribution. A handful of impatient whining turds might seem like "the community" at the time, but being loud & obnoxious doesn't make them representative. They quite possibly represent that small section of players who cannot wait a couple of days for anything, and will pirate any product from anywhere if its not available to them right now.

[Sekra 10]

And how often does this happen, is this really such a huge problem that we need to hide/encrypt our code?

As a last post from me in this thread I didn't think this as that big of a problem before this thread started but many people have already said in this thread: "Doesn't everybody do this?" when I've asked about it. I have heard of a few cases and even seen one myself. This thread made me suspect its far more common than I believed and when I asked around people said: "Yes we do that." And for me not to have to reply to any follow up question the "evidence" should be all over this thread, just read back. And for the possibility of anyone misunderstanding the others statements then let us all agree that this has been a big misunderstanding then.

@CG of course theres no claim or reason to ask permission to copy 5 lines of code, what I'm talking about is basically taking someone elses model (whole addon) then edit the config to your "liking" and then use it "privately" in your clan. Wether this clan is 5 or 100 people, wheres the line? In my opinion the for the "rule" to be very simple and everyone to understand, if you want to distribute an edited addon even in your 5 man clan, ask for permission. That shows respect for the addon maker and if he allows you to do the edit it gives the original author a nice feeling that his work is being appreciated. And if you don't get permission then we should also respect that.

I will now pull out from this thread since its been obvious for at least 30 pages that its going nowhere and people are not even trying to understand what others are saying. I will be interested to see if there is any official BIS statement on the matter, at least that would have ended this discussion 50 pages ago with a simple: "No, we are not planning on releasing any kind of a pbo locking tool for the community" because I understand the reason this has support has also to do with the fact that BAF pack is currently "protected".

[whisper 0]

Did you just say the whole community is opening other's PBOs, modifying them without consent and release the result as their own? lol?

A good portion of community is peeking into addons content, yes. That is all.

The thing to do for private clans, if you ask me, is at least to not touch original content but derive from it

[jw custom 56]

As a last post from me in this thread I didn't think this as that big of a problem before this thread started but many people have already said in this thread: "Doesn't everybody do this?" when I've asked about it. I have heard of a few cases and even seen one myself. This thread made me suspect its far more common than I believed and when I asked around people said: "Yes we do that." And for me not to have to reply to any follow up question the "evidence" should be all over this thread, just read back. And for the possibility of anyone misunderstanding the others statements then let us all agree that this has been a big misunderstanding then.

Well as long as you've only heard of a few cases, seen one and only suspecting more, maybe then it's not that big of a problem.

[dmarkwick 261]

As a last post from me in this thread I didn't think this as that big of a problem before this thread started but many people have already said in this thread: "Doesn't everybody do this?" when I've asked about it. I have heard of a few cases and even seen one myself. This thread made me suspect its far more common than I believed and when I asked around people said: "Yes we do that." And for me not to have to reply to any follow up question the "evidence" should be all over this thread, just read back. And for the possibility of anyone misunderstanding the others statements then let us all agree that this has been a big misunderstanding then.

@CG of course theres no claim or reason to ask permission to copy 5 lines of code, what I'm talking about is basically taking someone elses model (whole addon) then edit the config to your "liking" and then use it "privately" in your clan. Wether this clan is 5 or 100 people, wheres the line? In my opinion the for the "rule" to be very simple and everyone to understand, if you want to distribute an edited addon even in your 5 man clan, ask for permission. That shows respect for the addon maker and if he allows you to do the edit it gives the original author a nice feeling that his work is being appreciated. And if you don't get permission then we should also respect that.

Maybe it's a general outlook thing. I often get requests for people to use versions of my addons in their groups, I always say yes. Does it bother me to think that some groups are using versions I have no knowledge of? No, not a bit. It's perfectly fine, and in the spirit of what I would term the "community spirit". I've learned & tweaked from others, others can learn & tweak from me.

I will now pull out from this thread since its been obvious for at least 30 pages that its going nowhere and people are not even trying to understand what others are saying.

People understand perfectly fine. Don't mistake disagreement for not understanding.

I will be interested to see if there is any official BIS statement on the matter, at least that would have ended this discussion 50 pages ago with a simple: "No, we are not planning on releasing any kind of a pbo locking tool for the community"

Well, they did and it didn't :)

[max power 21]

I think that the moderators and some community members are quite good at handling issues relating to contested authorship. I would like to thank the moderating staff and those community members who do participate in helping keep plagiarism at a minimum. The community would be far less safe without your efforts.

Regarding the mp3 argument, I think that the rights of the music industry is an important discussion. However, this is a two wrongs make a right argument. Because some of us do something that is wrong should not serve as a basis for the justification of further wrongdoing.

[ffur2007slx2_5 11]

What I can say. en......

It's really amazing that this topic can cause such a hot discussion! i think that's the most meaningful discussion I've ever seen whatever it will reach somewhere or not. Everyone involved has showed his best opinion and I've really learned a lot from this thread far more than other ones!

Still the best wishes to community and hope it can be better and better!