Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[jw custom 56]

Yes, because clearly I would be greedy and selfish for giving out FREE content...

Yes you keep saying "FREE", but what on earth will it do to you if i solved a problem by looking at your code :confused: ...hey wait i know the answer: "it's mine, it's my right".

And its a shit choice. Release it and have it ripped to bits, or dont and everyone has to miss out because a few people cant let go of a privelage...

Yeah right we all rip everything to bits whenever it's released, jeez :j:

[dm 9]

Are these questions related to anything?

They are related to the arguments you're using against being able to protect our work.

Given that none of the proponents for the system have even suggested that all their content be locked, how have you come to the conclusion that everything will end up locked and the community will die.

The choice of locking pbo will end up in a no choice : people will have to lock their pbo

Can you tell me next weeks lottery numbers, the result of the next world cup, and whether or not I'll meet Olivia Wilde at next years comicon? Since you obviously have a crystal ball, you should be able to give me these answers...

---------- Post added at 20:45 ---------- Previous post was at 20:44 ----------

How about we stop talking exclusively about models, and their creator (are they that special), or we start talking about locking exclusively models, and not the rest? One or the other.

Well since you cant sell scripts or terrain or missions on turbosquid....

[dmarkwick 261]

They are related to the arguments you're using against being able to protect our work.

Given that none of the proponents for the system have even suggested that all their content be locked, how have you come to the conclusion that everything will end up locked and the community will die.

This has been addressed several times already, however in the spirit of apparent endless repetition I will again lay out a couple of reasons:

Once you establish a culture of ideas protection, and people eventually release more stuff that they had to fight tooth & nail to learn, encryption will become the norm.

Once you establish a safe method for people who DO take code and other content and simply re-use it without credit or permission, then modders feel they need to protect against this and encryption becomes the norm.

[dm 9]

but what on earth will it do to you if i solved a problem by looking at your code :confused:

Argh, its not about doing harm or good.

There are some models that either have to be protected (see Rocks recent release cancellations because of t_d's tools) or you do not want to see ripped apart.

Say you just spent a year making the most perfect model of something. Its perfect, 100% realistic, all the bells and whistles etc etc. you release it, and within 24 hours someone has made a modified version by opening the model, deleting some bits and adding on a ridiculous gun. You wouldn't be best pleased. Some jagoff has just ripped your pride and joy to bits, and released their version at 1:1000th of the effort. Some times you just cant stand to see that happen to your work.

I guess you really cant appreciate it without having actually made something, then seen it ripped apart...

[dmarkwick 261]

Well since you cant sell scripts or terrain or missions on turbosquid....

... and it's long been established that encryption will not prevent this.

[dm 9]

Once you establish a culture of ideas protection, and people eventually release more stuff that they had to fight tooth & nail to learn, encryption will become the norm.

Thats one hypothetical situation, which assumes that the community is full of assholes (nice, by the way)

On the other hand, we see a flourish in the community as people have to start talking to each other, rather than ripping off eachothers work behind their backs.

I guarentee it is 100% more effective and considerably quicker to have something explained to you than it is to reverse engineer something.

Why do you think the chinese knock-offs are always shittier than the originals?

[whisper 0]

Can you tell me next weeks lottery numbers, the result of the next world cup, and whether or not I'll meet Olivia Wilde at next years comicon? Since you obviously have a crystal ball, you should be able to give me these answers...

A brain is enough

As soon as an addon ripped from opened content will be released locked and unprovable, people will lock their content. No brainer : it's either "release as free and see your work reused locked and without permission", or "lock your content"

Well since you cant sell scripts or terrain or missions on turbosquid....

Wait.... I thought it was about "I don't want you peeking into my work", and now it's suddenly about Turbosquid? oO Make up your mind. Or are you implying that all casuals looking into your work you're spitting on at length in your posts are all doing so to resell on Turbosquid?

I guarentee it is 100% more effective and considerably quicker to have something explained to you than it is to reverse engineer something.

In case of a script or config? wrong Edited November 9, 2010 by whisper

[dm 9]

... and it's long been established that encryption will not prevent this.

And so the cycle continues: its a proven fact that locking your door will not stop a burglar from gaining entry to your house. But you still lock your door, right? RIGHT?

(Seriously, if you guys stop repeating the same worn out arguments, we'll stop repeating the same rebuttals...)

[soul_assassin 1745]

The choice of locking pbo will end up in a no choice : people will have to lock their pbo, even if they originally wanted to make content visible

Thats a stupid thing to say. Utter made-up paranoia. Why would this be the case? People just pbos just because others are locking? I mean if the choice does come eventually are you saying that YOU will lock YOUR pbos? Will Gnat? I would find it very strange if you did considering the persistence of your opinion on the issue.

[dm 9]

Wait.... I thought it was about "I don't want you peeking into my work", and now it's suddenly about Turbosquid? oO Make up your mind

Can it not be about both?

You guys seem to flit back and fourth between learning and "its always been that way" just as much...

[mr burns 131]

Argh, its not about doing harm or good.

There are some models that either have to be protected (see Rocks recent release cancellations because of t_d's tools) or you do not want to see ripped apart.

Say you just spent a year making the most perfect model of something. Its perfect, 100% realistic, all the bells and whistles etc etc. you release it, and within 24 hours someone has made a modified version by opening the model, deleting some bits and adding on a ridiculous gun. You wouldn't be best pleased. Some jagoff has just ripped your pride and joy to bits, and released their version at 1:1000th of the effort. Some times you just cant stand to see that happen to your work.

I guess you really cant appreciate it without having actually made something, then seen it ripped apart...

What about the BAF/PMC pbo´ing (i wont call it encryption because i dont know if it is), would that suffice? Ask BI nicely if they would pack your stuff up and off we go, problem solved :)

[jw custom 56]

Argh, its not about doing harm or good.

There are some models that either have to be protected (see Rocks recent release cancellations because of t_d's tools) or you do not want to see ripped apart.

Say you just spent a year making the most perfect model of something. Its perfect, 100% realistic, all the bells and whistles etc etc. you release it, and within 24 hours someone has made a modified version by opening the model, deleting some bits and adding on a ridiculous gun. You wouldn't be best pleased. Some jagoff has just ripped your pride and joy to bits, and released their version at 1:1000th of the effort. Some times you just cant stand to see that happen to your work.

I guess you really cant appreciate it without having actually made something, then seen it ripped apart...

I FULLY understand that people are angry about some people stealing models and sells them or use them in their own mod, but most if not all in this thread arguing for not implenting a protection are talking about learning and solving problems looking at pbo's, not stealing or ripping a part.

If i released a mod and someone modified it, for personal use of course i couldn't care less.

[JdB 151]

There are some models that either have to be protected (see Rocks recent release cancellations because of t_d's tools) or you do not want to see ripped apart.

To expand on this, 99/100 models won't have any ground-breaking features that you "need" to learn from. They're just regular models, that use the same principle as the BIS ArmA1 MLODs. Dots connected to each other forming surfaces that have some colors on them in the form of a texture. The only reason for not being allowed by some people in this thread to lock these models (whether it's in the form of a lockable pbo, or just the p3d) can be illegal actions, as there is nothing to learn from them, only money to be made by selling them, taking them and claiming them as your own, whether in this community or another, or editing them for personal or squad use, which most addonmakers both consider illegal without permission and put measures in their EULA to specify this. There are only few addons that have such unique features that no other addon at the time of release has (yet). For those rare occasions, it's better to ask the creator, since as it is a brand-new technique, it would be far harder to figure it out on your own, then to ask the creator that has already figured it out.

Edited November 9, 2010 by JdB

[dmarkwick 261]

Thats one hypothetical situation, which assumes that the community is full of assholes (nice, by the way)

Steady on, I didn't say that the reason people will encrypt is that they're assholes, only that it's seen as the norm. And, do you really wish for me to dig back in this thread for "assholey" assumptions you've made against the community?

On the other hand, we see a flourish in the community as people have to start talking to each other, rather than ripping off eachothers work behind their backs.

That's one hypothetical situation :) and, I don't see the wholesale ripping of ideas in the culture we have right now. I see some small amount which almost certainly will continue regardless. These events are internally policed quite well.

I guarentee it is 100% more effective and considerably quicker to have something explained to you than it is to reverse engineer something.

If you can guarantee that each modder will be available to chat right when I need them, as an alternative to simply reading, then maybe.

[dm 9]

I FULLY understand that people are angry about some people stealing models and sells them or use them in their own mod, but most if not all in this thread arguing for not implenting a protection are talking about learning and solving problems looking at pbo's, not stealing or ripping a part.

So the thieves should continue to have an easy time of it, just so that the learners dont have to ask people about things? (Assuming every pbo is locked)

SA has chipped in the most valuable post of the last 30 mins (and I hate myself for not thinking of it before)

To the nay-sayers. Even though you are staunchly against pbo locking, you will lock your pbos if the capability is created?

If i released a mod and someone modified it, for personal use of course i couldn't care less.

Well thats good for you, but some of us have some pride and actually care about the things we do...

[whisper 0]

Thats a stupid thing to say. Utter made-up paranoia. Why would this be the case? People just pbos just because others are locking? I mean if the choice does come eventually are you saying that YOU will lock YOUR pbos? Will Gnat? I would find it very strange if you did considering the persistence of your opinion on the issue.

FFS do you guys actually read?

people won't lock just because other people lock.

they will lock because unlocked content will be reused by thieves locked and protected from pursuit

Locking is going to make the life of free-content abusers easier!

Yes I would lock because I expect a simple credit for reusing my work, sometimes. And even this I can't expect from people who will have the ability to take my work, mark it as their own in an addon I can't even say a word about because I can't prove they reused my code.

So, yes, sadly, I'll have to lock...

Edited November 9, 2010 by whisper

[dm 9]

to expand on this, 99/100 models won't have any ground-breaking features that you "need" to learn from. They're just regular models, that use the same principle as the bis arma1 mlods. Dots connected to each other forming surfaces that have some colors on them in the form of a texture. The only reason for not being allowed by some people in this thread to lock these models (whether it's in the form of a lockable pbo, or just the p3d) can be illegal actions, as there is nothing to learn from them, only money to be made by selling them, taking them and claiming them as your own, whether in this community or another, or editing them for personal or squad use, which most addonmakers both consider illegal without permission and put measures in their eula to specify this. There are only few addons that have such unique features that no other addon has (yet). For those rare occasions, it's better to ask the creator, since as it is a brand-new technique, it would be far harder to figure it out on your own, then to ask the creator that has already figured it out.

qft.......

[whisper 0]

To expand on this, 99/100 models won't have any ground-breaking features that you "need" to learn from. They're just regular models, that use the same principle as the BIS ArmA1 MLODs. Dots connected to each other forming surfaces that have some colors on them in the form of a texture. The only reason for not being allowed by some people in this thread to lock these models (whether it's in the form of a lockable pbo, or just the p3d) can be illegal actions, as there is nothing to learn from them, only money to be made by selling them, taking them and claiming them as your own, whether in this community or another, or editing them for personal or squad use, which most addonmakers both consider illegal without permission and put measures in their EULA to specify this. There are only few addons that have such unique features that no other addon at the time of release has (yet). For those rare occasions, it's better to ask the creator, since as it is a brand-new technique, it would be far harder to figure it out on your own, then to ask the creator that has already figured it out.

And 3D models are not the only thing contained in a pbo! Locking p3d only? YEAH! The whole pbo, why?

[Daniel 0]

I FULLY understand that people are angry about some people stealing models and sells them or use them in their own mod, but most if not all in this thread arguing for not implenting a protection are talking about learning and solving problems looking at pbo's, not stealing or ripping a part.

If i released a mod and someone modified it, for personal use of course i couldn't care less.

That's your personal opinion, and a very good one. But if someone else would prefer some protection for their own free addon, what harm is that? It's not selfish. What right has anyone else to force otherwise? The particular addon would be released with the intention of being played, not as a tutorial. I don't think it would discourage other authors from releasing work that can be accessed easily and learned from. You said yourself you don't mind others learning from your work.

Edited November 9, 2010 by Daniel

[JdB 151]

And 3D models are not the only thing contained in a pbo! Locking p3d only? YEAH! The whole pbo, why?

"(whether it's in the form of a lockable pbo, or just the p3d)"

I didn't specify either of the two, but left my preference in the middle as I personally wouldn't mind either option. You're continuing to deduce conclusions/decisions/opinions/motives out of people's posts that simply aren't there.

[jw custom 56]

Well thats good for you, but some of us have some pride and actually care about the things we do...

What the hell does that have to do with pride that someone somewhere in the world is sitting infront of his computer using your mod which he modified for personal use for whatever reason he had :confused:

To expand on this, 99/100 models won't have any ground-breaking features that you "need" to learn from. They're just regular models, that use the same principle as the BIS ArmA1 MLODs. Dots connected to each other forming surfaces that have some colors on them in the form of a texture. The only reason for not being allowed by some people in this thread to lock these models (whether it's in the form of a lockable pbo, or just the p3d) can be illegal actions, as there is nothing to learn from them, only money to be made by selling them, taking them and claiming them as your own, whether in this community or another, or editing them for personal or squad use, which most addonmakers both consider illegal without permission and put measures in their EULA to specify this. There are only few addons that have such unique features that no other addon at the time of release has (yet). For those rare occasions, it's better to ask the creator, since as it is a brand-new technique, it would be far harder to figure it out on your own, then to ask the creator that has already figured it out.

I have no idea how all that model stuff work, when i open up a pbo it's usally to solve a problem i'm having with the mod and my mission, or if i'm stuck on something and i think the answer lies inside a pbo.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well thats good for you, but some of us have some pride and actually care about the things we do...

There's my first example :) nice.....

[whisper 0]

You said yourself you don't mind others learning from your work.

Yes, I don't mind at all people learning from my work.

I mind people acknowledging they reused my code in their own work. It's called credit, and knowing who is the true author.

Which can't be proven when someone re-use my work and put it in a locked pbo. I won't even be able to check, prove, whatever, if the guy used or not my work. He can call it is own as he wishes. As a thief, he is protected by the lock system.

To avoid this, I'll be forced to lock my content, even if I don't mind people learning from my work.

Seeing my free time, that actual answers to request will be long to come. It happened I've been out for more than a year, several times...

[soul_assassin 1745]

FFS do you guys actually read?

people won't lock just because other people lock.

they will lock because unlocked content will be reused by thieves locked and protected from pursuit

Locking is going to make the life of free-content abusers easier!

Yes I would lock because I expect a simple credit for reusing my work, sometimes. And even this I can't expect from people who will have the ability to take my work, mark it as their own in an addon I can't even say a word about because I can't prove they reused my code.

So, yes, sadly, I'll have to lock...

But the nay-sayers argument is that the community is already vigilant and news sites dont allow copied stuff. Why would they all of a sudden allow them?

Any model/script/texture maker can spot their work in 1 minute playing in the editor, for me I dont even need to do that, one look at the pic and I instantly know. If you then kindly ask any news site, they will take it down. Or do you rummage through every addon/mission that gets released?

[whisper 0]

It's easy for models and textures, it's not for configs and scripting and text based stuff...

that's why I say the locking thing is a models/texture thing, but shouldn't apply to the rest

Awww, and please, labelling people with another opinion than yours as "naysayer" will not help (like me labelling the other side of the argument "allmighty professional 3D artists" didn't help) and won't prove you more right :)

Edited November 9, 2010 by whisper