Do you think it's necessary for BIS providing lockable binPBO?

[rksl-rock 1301]

There is a very big difference between theft and copyright infringement that you do not understand.

Oh i understand. the difference you think exists. But the fact here is that while there is a commercial advantage of selling "copies" of other people's IP. This is considered theft in law. Simply because you are selling a product that does not belong to you in any way shape or form for a monetary advantage. Its theft and fraud since you are decieving your customers.

If someone breaks into my house and steals my TV then I no longer have a TV. If someone still breaks into your PBO and takes your model, you still have your model and your PBO, just now someone else has a copy of it that you do not want them to have.

Totally different..

Well if you designed your TV and it is all your own design, concept and construction... guess what!

Its still IP theft.

There is also the fact that when someone breaks into a house its an overt commission of a crime, one that needs to be taken quickly as possible. There is the threat of being caught in the act.

When someone is cracking encryption there is no threat to them till after they have cracked it, at which point, given most cracks, its already too late and the technology spreads like wildfire.

To continue your analogy of house breaking. I can go down the hardware store and buy a crowbar. Now there are legitimate uses for the crowbar. But I can also use it to break into your house and steal the design for your TV. Possession of the crowbar isnt a crime. The use of the crowbar in a criminal way is.

Yes the crowbar is available if you know where to buy it but not everyone has one or will use it for crime if they do.

Its simply not economically viable to invest in most DRM solutions, and its certainly not viable to invest in them if you are going to give them away for free (thats a bit of irony in itself, maybe model makers should pay BIS for a lockable PBO?).

See again you arent actually reading what ive said.

Yes i am "giving away", actually licensing the ability to use the addon within the ArmA2 game with certain conditions. But im not giving away my rights to the model, textures, sounds or scripts. Don't assume just because you download something for free that you own it. You don't.

Well as DM has already pointed out the technology already exists (although some here imply its already been cracked). But I for one would like the option to lock my PBOs. Now if that technology requires investment or a license to use it. I would gladly pay for it. Maybe it should be funded like a DLC pack? Maybe its in BIS interests to ensure a strong and happy community for the future.

There are atleast options to discuss. There is no need to throw out the idea because you don't like it.

Also you seem to make assumptions again... I am a 100% original content maker (ACRE), I also work on projects that have lots of donations (ACE and CBA), and I work on VBS2 content. I also fully 100% do not support locking down PBO files because its just a waste of time for BIS, it could deny a lot of new programmers the ability to learn from others in the community (like I did, and pretty much everyone else I know did), and it won't stop theft at all by the people looking to sell your models and violate your copyright.

No assumptions are made. As I repeatedly say you have the option to lock your PBOs noone is forcing you. And even if you do, why not write a tut for your innovations to help others?

The reason it works in VBS2 is because the client base is so much smaller, the developer community a lot smaller, and the licensing so much more strict, that it makes sense to deploy much more stringent means to lock down content and also provide the catalyst for things like legal suits and other such actions if there is violation of copyright.

Ah again you are showing your ignorance. The VBS2 end user and developer base is far larger than our meagre community. But you are only seeing the handful of reps posting in the support forums. The commercial customer base and their respective developers are far larger than anything we have in the ArmA side of things.

The reason VBS2 encryption works is that it uses a strong encryption method that either depends on a server or upon a USB key lock. If you had the same (expensive) system in ArmA2 we wouldnt be having this debate. We would be sharing knowledge by talking to each other. Maybe we'd even be friends. Who knows.

[dmarkwick 261]

For the record, all my stuff is original, with credits for help I received. In fact, I'd invite anyone to take a peek :)

When I didn't know how to set up a loop, when I didn't know how to precache images in config, when I didn't know how to do anything I needed to do in fact, I looked at examples other people did. It's how everyone learned here, and if you maintain you didn't, you're not being entirely honest :)

[noubernou 77]

...

Your models will still be stolen and sold. No matter how you argue it the end result is your models will be taken and sold with out your consent.

There is no stopping it.

[dmarkwick 261]

• An environment that I can release "commercial grade" addons for free without fear of theft and exploitation for my friends to enjoy.

• The ability to protect my work from theft (or at least make it substantially harder to steal)

The point that seems to be consistently overlooked is that this won't happen using the method requested. The only people it will slow down is the casual new learner looking for clues. The implication seems to be that wonderful new models will become available once there's an encryption option, but, I don't see it. If it did happen, I'm not sure it would counterbalance the negative impact encryption would have.

But hey - it's just an opinion :)

[rksl-rock 1301]

Your models will still be stolen and sold. No matter how you argue it the end result is your models will be taken and sold with out your consent.

There is no stopping it.

Yes they will but there is no reason to make it easier for them.

PS Ill be round your house in the morning to take all your locks off your doors and windows. And help myself to your PC.

Statistically you will get burgled at some point yet you still lock your doors don't you.

[noubernou 77]

Yes they will but there is no reason to make it easier for them.

PS Ill be round your house in the morning to take all your locks off your doors and windows. And help myself to your PC.

Statistically you will get burgled at some point yet you still lock your doors don't you.

You really do no get the difference do you?

If I rob you then you notice real quick, you are missing something.

This is more like me knowing where every item is in your house, going in while you are still in it, and invisibly making exact replicas of everything you own. Then I go out and I have a garage sale of all those things that you own (and still have) but the garage sale is in a totally different city and you don't even know about it.

You put content online, encrypted or not, it will be taken if someone wants to take it.

[rksl-rock 1301]

The point that seems to be consistently overlooked is that this won't happen using the method requested. The only people it will slow down is the casual new learner looking for clues. The implication seems to be that wonderful new models will become available once there's an encryption option, but, I don't see it. If it did happen, I'm not sure it would counterbalance the negative impact encryption would have.

But hey - it's just an opinion :)

I'm sorry i don't see why now. Yes the casual learner will not be able to rip addons apart but he can still ask the author for help.

I can't say i've never looked in side someone's addon. But being totally honest 99% of the time i prefer talking to the actual author. You get to ask why, how and what if. I was lucky enough to get to talk with both Footmunch and Col Klink. Both took me under their wings and gave me their mlods to learn from. They answered my questions and wrote tutorials. I got 10,000 times more info from talking to them than i ever did poking around in someone's addon without permission.

Regardless of any argument you may come up with I still believe - in fact I know - that actually talking to the author and using a tutorial makes it far easier to learn, takes less time and strengthens the community.

All of which is a good thing isn't it.

Edited November 4, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[nuxil 2]

i'm not saying there will be never or no protection from us e.g. for trustable community developers

i have a question regarding that saying.

how do we define trust worthy community members?

i see that as a bit of a problem. some gets it some dont.

are you more trust worthy than be only because you make models?

this must be a service that bis provides for you. you send your unencrypted pbo and get one encrypted back.

else its pointles. because once the commuinty has the software for encrypting. it will be as dwarden said. just matter of time and will before it gets reverse engineered. there is many people that has plenty of both.

one other problem is also if bis where to provide this kinda service. you can never give away you unencryped pbo.

because if a preson collects enough encryped pbos and unencryped ones. you dont even need the software to reverse engineer the algorithm used. it will be time consuming finding the algorithm but it will be broken.

even more time consuming with only encryped pbos to work on.

having that said.

i do stongly belive that encryping pbos is not in the best interest of the community.

i do belive it is only in best interest of you yay sayers. not the rest of us.

[rksl-rock 1301]

You really do no get the difference do you?

If I rob you then you notice real quick, you are missing something.

This is more like me knowing where every item is in your house, going in while you are still in it, and invisibly making exact replicas of everything you own. Then I go out and I have a garage sale of all those things that you own (and still have) but the garage sale is in a totally different city and you don't even know about it.

And if it takes me a month, a year to notice? Its still stolen isn't it.

C'mon get real. Just because you don't know its gone doesn't mean your rights are any less violated.

Case in point - a person name Mark Sutherland was selling some of my models on a 3D website. My friends and i had released a freeware (we own the rights but free to use in a non commercial way) pack of models. Planes, objects, trains, houses etc. It took nearly 2 years before i stumbled across them. I took him to court and won £3000 compensation and costs. In that 2 years he'd sold the pack over 100 times. The award to me and my friends was for the breach in IP and copyright. The value of the sales and a penality for damages. Its took 2 years for us to notice. But it was still our property in the eyes of the law.

Regardless of how long it takes to find/hear/discover the theft, you will still have the right of recourse.

You put content online, encrypted or not, it will be taken if someone wants to take it.

Maybe so but i don't have to put it on a silver platter do i? I don't know how many times i have to say this. Yes - no security is fool proof. It can be hacked but having no security is just stupid.

Edited November 4, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[noubernou 77]

And if it takes me a month, a year to notice? Its still stolen isn't it.

C'mon get real. Just because you don't know its gone doesn't mean your rights are any less violated.

Maybe so but i don't have to put it on a silver platter do i? I don't know how many times i have to say this. Yes - no security is fool proof. It can be hacked but having no security is just stupid.

How would you know its stolen and not something of my own if you aren't even missing it in the first place... Why would you even be looking? Do you look for models that you have made on model selling sites? How many times can a model of an F-15 or a M1A1 be made and look pretty much the exact same (seeing that they should look the exact same, or they aren't that great a model to start with)?

What I am saying to you is why should BIS provide the investment of time and money for something that will not serve the community any better than the existing standard? To alleviate some paranoid fear about your content being pirated is not a valid reason.

Do musicians stop making music because anyone can record them? No. You do it because you enjoy it and you think you will have a benefit to the community. Its especially true if you are not even planning to sell your models in the first place.

[rksl-rock 1301]

i have a question regarding that saying.

how do we define trust worthy community members?.

You see that troubles me too. What if one "trusted" member becomes disillusioned and goes rogue and hands out the tool? Or a team member hands it out to his mate and so on.

I've been thinking that maybe an extension of the BIkey system? Each user creates a unique encryption key. With their tag as a prefix? each addon's encryption would be different and verifiable on the servers and clients?

I'm not a coder or cryptologist but is that a viable idea?

having that said.

i do stongly belive that encryping pbos is not in the best interest of the community.

i do belive it is only in best interest of you yay sayers. not the rest of us.

I disagree and that people i've spoken with in my circle of friends do too. Im not going to argue that in the past its been useful to look in the the BIS configs and sample models due to the lack of documentation and an informed person at BIS to explain it all. But I will argue that it is unecessary to poke around in someone's addons while they are actually contactable on the forums.

Surely a person helping you, answer your questions is better than staring at a lump of code you don't really understand?

Edited November 4, 2010 by RKSL-Rock

[TRexian 0]

But I will argue that it is unecessary to poke around in someone's addons while they are actually contactable on the forums.

Surely a person helping you, answer your questions is better than staring at a lump of code you don't really understand?

As someone who still feels very much like a n00b at all this, I can at least give me view on this.

Basically, I don't even know what questions to ask, until I have tried to figure out how it works. One of the best learning-resources I got was either Domination or Evolution (can't remember which right now). But, I didn't even know what I didn't know. I couldn't even formulate a question. I searched and asked, mostly at OFPEC, and often got helpful answers, but more often, I didn't even know what words to use to get a good answer.

There were some guides available - and more out there now - but for me, with very little coding experience, it took 'looking under the hood' to even be able to talk the talk.

What you describe seems like some sort of idyllic mentoring program. I have had several VERY helpful people (even DMarkwick). But, the last thing I want to be is bothersome. And, sometimes questions go unanswered, and you either are motivated to get the answers (by taking apart someone else's pbo), or you stop dev'ing. Take a look at some of the threads around here asking for help that don't get answered.... those are opportunities lost.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

A few lines from Dwarden and the resulting cool down is much welcome. :) Wasn't sure if you were "taking the temperature" or was out the on the Team Building of a lifetime :D

i'm not saying there will be never or no protection from us e.g. for trustable community developers

but i'm just trying to hint on the 'common sense' line

I think that protection appliance should be done in house at BIS (anyone can go rogue). Also I expect BIS to allow this sort of protection "by common sense". There should be extremely good reasons for using. Reads: Wanting it isn't enough. I do trust BIS with "common sense". But I don't trust most of the guys who have participated here with it.

Considering the amount of activity in this thread, why didn't anyone answer me the question I asked in the last paragraph of #358? Given the number of people who are obsessed with "rights", it's odd that I got 0 answers when I requested assistance on the matter (how to behave). ;) Ask they say. Jupp, real easy to get an answer.

That's the same experience I have from trying to communicate with some (not all) addon makers: permissions to use and access to resources. And that's the same experience I get in many of my tech related questions, that I can't bump.

One point that was recently made aware to me in a PM, was something nobody has mentioned yet (didn't notice it anyway): Trustworthy (Armaholic) and bogus (too many to be mentioned) distribution networks. I always expected such relatively big sites to have some sort of decency factor, like Armaholic (denounces disputed addons), but apparently they will not and will happily make available anything.

Is there any way of limiting this? I.e. through some high level signing by BIS, where this is verified by a download server certificate or something? Sign files could be redownloaded on a daily basis IF the addon version you have matched the one on an acknowledged distribution server, and a server gone bad could be denounced and certificate withdrew. VerifySignatures exists on a new method:

Level 1 : Same as today, but you need a verified (by server certificate link) addon.

Level 2 : Same as today, but you need a verified (by server certificate link) addon, IF the addon requires it.

Level 1 means you can still have a development phase on the addon, with a working key, but that key is signed by the author. You still wouldn't be able to connect with a modified addon of course.

Level 2 means you can't play with that addon unless you have the right version of it, and downloaded from a trusted site.

The server would know (by the addons key, and link) if Level 1 is sufficient, or Level 2 is required.

(Getting tired, so I'm not if I'm putting this down right).

Benefits:

* Controls flow and usability of non authorized addons (that is, they come from untrustworthy sites by linking them by certificate).

* Limits the possible damage caused by changes that got outside of the intended circle, when "illegal clan changes" are made. Sorry, but it always has happened, and it always will happen.

* Still allow tinkering and even "clan modifications", but these clans are now forced to play on a passworded server in order to use them, and/or they are forced to turn off verify signatures in order for the addon to work (that allows cheaters, tough luck, but ok within a closed clan community based on trust). Should pretty much exclude such addons in circulation on public servers at least.

Drawbacks:

* Unless made extremely transparent, have potential to be really confusing to the end user.

* Requires live link between a central server and distribution servers (for certificate verifications and revokes).

* Requires live link between game server and one off several distribution servers to verify and/or download (if central server accepts the distribution server) an updated key.

* Hotfixes could be handled by regular signing (by the addon creator), while the main addon (not to have major revisions on a daily basis).

If a distribution site goes rogue, it's certificate is revoked, a new algorithm generated at BIS, and new keys distributed to the remaining distribution sites, which is compared to players keys and uploaded to player if found ok.

With the key system being handled automatically, there is no longer need to release many addons using the same key. Guess what that fixes?

1) I'm mr. nice guy giving you guys some nice addon to play with. So you install my server key.

2) For any server running my server key, I can thrash that server by making addons that are not made for fun. I wonder how many consider the sources of the addons they use or install server keys from. I know there has been some, well, rather weird characters around giving us addons which really didn't give us much. Not sure if they came with a server key though, as I never downloaded these addons.

3) With the new verification system, if I'm mr. bad addon maker disguised as a good one, the only place I could have "fun" would be on my own server (would instantly get unpopular), since the contents on an addon would be checked (not allowing bad stuff), and you couldn't have multiple addons per key.

I don't know if it solves all problems, any problems even, or if it's at all feasible to do, or worth the cost. But maybe worth a little brainstorming, unless done already naturally. But I consider hackers and cheaters a much bigger threat to the community (especially the public playing one), than us "petty pokers". Few would notice if a couple of high profilers left due to not releasing their models (no offense). Everyone would notice if a lot of the community left due to intolerable sessions with hackers and cheaters.

Oh dear... One refresh, and - kaboom!

@RKSL-Rock:

Edit: Deleted text. We can't agree. Case closed for me on that part.

Questions:

Case in point - Since you're the expert around here on the matter, do you have any examples of noncommercial uses of anything freeware, or better yet, tiny parts of, that has seen this level of IP protection by a legal system? I consider both selling models and applying for a job having commercial interests.

Other communities - Since this is my only one, I really don't know. But what other freeware gaming communities offers solid (not binarizing or packing) encryption to all of their end users?

Edit:

I disagree and that people i've spoken with in my circle of friends do too.

No offense, but I think you would be an excellent refrigerator salesman on Greenland too ;) You present your case in such a fashion it's hard to resist agreeing (that's a compliment on debating skills btw). Your friends would have to be extremely in opposition to resist it, if not for other reasons than keeping the peace. I'm not skilled, and in opposition, so yeah, maybe I have to shout a little... As I'm not english, just finding the appropriate words is hard.

Edited November 4, 2010 by CarlGustaffa

[xxbbcc 6]

[off]

Drawbacks:

* Unless made extremely transparent, have potential to be really confusing to the end user.

* Requires live link between a central server and distribution servers (for certificate verifications and revokes).

I'd flat out refuse all features that'd require any kind of live connection to a server in order for me to launch/run Arma. This is precisely the reason I don't buy anything from Steam and I never, ever will. Other than the game server that hosts the particular mission, any other live links that'd be required (as opposed to fully optional) I'd reject without any further consideration.

I feel this is important enough to comment on - if any such requirement would ever be added to Arma, I'd immediately stop supporting BIS.

[/off]

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Uhm, no. Doesn't prevent anything starting. Then I'd leave too. During the serious events (several years since last one :() the internet plug is pulled before each mission brief. No external annoyances like msn crap allowed, so that wouldn't work well. You shouldn't notice more to this than you do with BE or GS.

[xxbbcc 6]

Ah ok, it's different then. Just wanted to clarify that bit there. :)

[whisper 0]

As I repeatedly say you have the option to lock your PBOs noone is forcing you. And even if you do, why not write a tut for your innovations to help others?

This will end up being forced upon everyone to prevent encryption protecting non-encrypted theft... This so called option will not be optional

[4 IN 1 0]

It is clear then. I won't die because there is no new good addons, I give my 100% support to RKSL-Rock and addon makers alike to protect their hard work, and remember don't even bother to ask them why they dont release them, the answer is already here.

(Call me a jerk if you like to, I don't give a damn, I might even acturally be proud of it:p)

[jw custom 56]

It is clear then. I won't die because there is no new good addons

I see many good new and old addons.

and remember don't even bother to ask them why they dont release them, the answer is already here.

Who cares the community has survived fine so far!

[Fox '09 14]

Try to extract BAF PBOs ;)

Done and debinarized by others.

As much as Someone says it's bis or binpbos fault , one person chooses not to make addons. Not bin pbo. It doesn't matter how locked the pbo is, if you want to get someones files , you will

Don't get me wrong , I support this , I just don't see the problem ending here, and really anywhere

Edited November 4, 2010 by Fox '09

[Tankbuster 1747]

if someone breaks into my house and steals my tv then i no longer have a tv. If someone still breaks into your pbo and takes your model, you still have your model and your pbo, just now someone else has a copy of it that you do not want them to have.

Totally different.

w

t

f

[[aps]gnat 28]

Ok, so lets stop implying modellers here have illicit motivations and return to provable, sustainable fact.

My comments?

I in no way say going commercial is "illicit".

Its just fact that it changes a persons point of view and their motivation. Not your joe-average community member.

Scenario 1

- I've spent some time making 1 cool funky widget that does some interesting tricks. I get 100 copied for free.

- During a day Im just one of 20 street vendors giving away virtually the same cool little wiggets (mine are a different colour, made from slightly different materials).

- A guy takes one, thanks me and in front of me, pops the cover to have a look at how it works.

- Next day, there are 21 street vendors giving away widgets.

- Do I really care? Not really, vendors and clients all still have a nice smile.

Scenario 2

- I've spent some time making 1 cool funky widget that does some interesting tricks. I get 100 copied for free.

- I find I'll be able to sell a copy to China 1 day soon.

- During a day Im one of 2 street vendors giving away virtually the same cool little wiggets (mine are a different colour, made from slightly different materials).

- A guy takes one, thanks me and in front of me, pops the cover to have a look at how it works.

- Next day, there are 3 street vendors giving away widgets.

- Do I really care? Of course I friggin care! FFS, I'm becoming "mainstream", my smiles & "thank you's" just halved and theres a chance that other prick may find my Chinese buyer too.

And just so there is no confusion here’s the easy to follow guide to my own opinions (most i know others here share):

• I support the

option

to Lock/secure the PBO format

• I am against community made payware – It destroyed the FS Freeware community and increased theft by 1000%

• I do support BIS made DLC – it allows BIS to fund continued development of the ArmA2/OA engine so I’m happy to support it.

• I think anyone that makes original content should have the right to protect it if they so choose.

• I don’t think that anyone should be able to vote to stop them.

• I also think that anyone creating tools to decode/decrypt/reverse engineer models is either hopelessly naïve or is living in cloud cuckoo land. If they think they are helping the larger community they should also realise they are also enabling theft. They need to grow up and act more responsibly.

• I think anyone in this community that learns from the work or help of others has the moral obligation to share that knowledge and if possible document it. - THis does not in anyway contradict the right of anyone to protect their work if they choose.

I agree with all of that.

Except the harsness for tool makers. MOST tools are good for the community (the community I think it is and should be).

Some tools are questionable, but in my community, theyre ok if a little distribution control is applied.

Thus far, I've only used THAT tool to look at BIS product.

And now my own agenda. I want:

• A community that respects the work and efforts of others (yes im dreaming but hey there is always hope)

• An environment that I can release "commercial grade" addons for

free

without fear of theft and exploitation for my friends to enjoy.

• The ability to protect my work from theft (or at least make it substantially harder to steal)

• A pony

• Decent documentation for each new engine feature introduced inthe DLC preferably with practical "real world" examples/samples.

• More visible community modding rules and customs for new modders so they head down the "right" path from the start!

Agree again.

Except the pony (you can get jailed for that), and "Modding Rules".

BIS recently made its view pretty clear, and I feel its great middle ground.

"No harm, no foul"

Not too many rules that it kills a creative community, not too little that the vultures from the four corners of the world decend.

Surely a person helping you, answer your questions is better than staring at a lump of code you don't really understand?

As TRexian has mentioned, its not always simple.

Where would the sensation of CTI be if the PBO's had been locked and/or you were reliant on Mike Melvin and Cleanrock answer ALL questions?

Example crCTI; There is only one way to learn it, sit for hours and hours reading every script.

Has anyone mentioned THIS problem with locked PBOs?

- UberArmAguy7643 release an addon. Credits say "100% mine".

- Uber-Tim says, "Thats cool, but isn't that my model?"

- UberArmAguy7643 laughs and says "No way dude, I made it"

- Uber-Jay says, "Thats cool, but isn't that my respawn and repair script?"

- UberArmAguy7643 laughs again and says "No way dude, I made it"

- etc etc

I repeat, I'm ok with option if the MAJORITY of the community wants it.

[Zipper5 74]

• I also think that anyone creating tools to decode/decrypt/reverse engineer models is either hopelessly naïve or is living in cloud cuckoo land. If they think they are helping the larger community they should also realise they are also enabling theft. They need to grow up and act more responsibly.

This works both ways here, Rock. You're complaining that stuff you've released for free to the internet as part of a 3rd party mod for a video game is being stolen and/or sold.

What is the point of putting money into a project to develop a way for "locking" PBOs? That will only solve issues in the short-term. You seem to have been burned by theft of your own work and are looking for something, anything to make yourself feel more secure about your creations. That's a logical reaction anywhere but the internet. How can we say it will actually make their job harder? Whereas it is certain that it will be decrypted eventually. In fact, it's the constant trying to block out pirates and thieves that makes them up their efforts to continue doing it, making it easier and, dare I say it, more "efficient" each time they do it. You're simply going to make both pirates/thieves and legitimate consumers angry.

Do you realize it will ultimately be pointless? People have told me that the BAF DLC encryption has been cracked for a while now, but it's not been publicized at all around these parts. I can't give examples as I don't go looking for that stuff, I am just aware it's going on. If BIS' encryption which they specifically used to protect content of monetary value is being cracked, what makes you think that locks they develop for free content will be any more of an obstacle? It'll be a nuisance more than anything.

And where exactly would we be if we never had tools to decrypt PBOs?

Edited November 4, 2010 by Zipper5

[[frl]myke 14]

And where exactly would we be if we never had tools to decrypt PBOs?

This is a hypothetic question so i think you don't mind for a hypothetic answer:

We would probably talk more to each other, working closer together. There would be some more Fansites alive, dedicated to editing and collecting/sharing knowledge in form of tutorials and knowledge bases.

We would have probably more modding teams than single addonmakers. Our ICQ/MSN/whatever contact lists would probably be significantly larger.

Since people knew that the only way to gather knowledge is to read tutorials and work together, a lot more tutorials would have been written since people know that the community reys on them.

As said, this is hypothetical but why should it be less likely than the negative assumption people tend to believe (community will die and/or become elitist)?

Probably the truth will be somewhere inbetween. Some will become elitist, others start to write more tutorials and share knowledge even more.

After all i think it will raise the quality of available knowledge, making it easier for everyone, especially beginners, to create content.

[mr burns 132]

And where exactly would we be if we never had tools to decrypt PBOs?

Myke;1781943']This is a hypothetic question so i think you don't mind for a hypothetic answer:

Another hypothetic outcome:

Amalfi never released unpbo, the AvonLady and her Newsgroup fellas never got more out of the OFP demo than what it originally offered.

No hype emerged.

OFP still became a great success, but as there´s no modding going on, it pitily passed away somewhen inbetween 2004-2005.

End of story.