ARMA2 and Kinect

[TenBensons 10]

I recently read that the new all singing all dancing Kinect sensor might also be brought to PC. It (imo) has some excellent features that could rival, even surpass TrackIR in ARMA2. I don't know much about the tech but does anyone know or could guestimate whether Kinect could be implemented in ARMA2?

http://www.xbox.com/en-GB/kinect/

[DaveP 66]

Makes sense to me, two cameras will give a much better level of tracking than just one, especially when it comes to the 6DoF control, and the mass production of it will surely make it cheaper than trackIR over time

Just a matter of time until someone works out how to get it working with ppJoy or similar

[roberthammer 582]

heh i wanna see someone play arma2 with kinect :D

[Zipper5 74]

Do not want. Motion control will not work until they find out a way to give physical feedback for your actions. Kinect is nothing more than a gimmick that costs way too much.

[Dynamic Echo 10]

Zipper, I don't think anyone here is asking for motion controls in ArmA 2, rather using the PC version of Kinect as a cheaper, potentially better, alternative to TrackIR. Depending on how good the voice recognition software for Kinect turns out to be, it could also be widely used for voice commands.

[Zipper5 74]

Still, Kinect is intended to use the entire body, not just the head, therefore from what I've seen I doubt the precision of it only monitoring your head will ever be able to surpass TrackIR, a tool made specifically for tracking head motion.

And this is eliminating Kinect's stupid price tag and its contribution to the prolonging of this motion control fad akin to the current (and useless) 3D fad.

[Pyronick 21]

Still, Kinect is intended to use the entire body, not just the head, therefore from what I've seen I doubt the precision of it only monitoring your head will ever be able to surpass TrackIR, a tool made specifically for tracking head motion.

And this is eliminating Kinect's stupid price tag and its contribution to the prolonging of this motion control fad akin to the current (and useless) 3D fad.

It does not track the body, it actually tracks everything.

The built-in SOC looks for pattern of multiple things which forms the human body and the face.

This also offloads from your own CPU.

As long as the API allows it you can choose to only track the head or even your nose or ears if the developers want to.

The thing with TrackIR is as it's name implies, it only reacts to infrared light. It has to filter out ambient infrared noise and doesn't recognize patterns, it just follows 3 dots which represent and x, y and z axle in a virtual Cartesian coordinate system.

Far from efficient.

The Kinect however is a completely different system, it uses two camera's in a binocular setup.

These are regular RGB (visible light) camera's without IR filter and an active IR projector, so it has to filter out ambient infrared noise aswell, but the RGB light can be used as a reference to filter out ambient infrared noise.

The active infrared projector makes sure the Kinect "works" in a dark room.

The only things that make it "inferior" to the TrackIR in my opinion is that it is Microsoft hardware, the low framerate (30 Hz vs 120 Hz) and the fact that it has children diseases.

Edited October 17, 2010 by SgtH3nry3

[Cyteless 10]

I'd rather not. I'd be bloody knackered if I had to do the whole "running-prone-crouch-raise weapon-climb over wall," thing. I'd rather sit on my comfy beanbags than wave around like an idiot. :cool:

[dmarkwick 261]

Would be great to have the option though. I could see it maybe being layered, with the user being able to choose the level of interaction, from just head tracking, through the user holding a toy (or replica) rifle, right up to whole body monitoring for head, rifle & stance etc if the user wants to.

It would certainly be more attractive in this state for VBS2 use rather than soldiers sitting at laptops :)

[JojoTheSlayer 35]

The Kinect however is a completely different system,...

The only things that make it "inferior" to the TrackIR in my opinion is that it is Microsoft hardware, the low framerate (30 Hz vs 120 Hz) ...

How important is the 30 vs 120 in regards to the new tech and smoothness of the tracking? I would still want to use TrackIR is the smoothness was much higher. The lack of "perfect" smoothness is why I never really considered Freetrack.

But I wouldnt mind the Kinect coming to PC. Maybe more fps games, or adventure games like Amnesia The Dark descent would start using head tracking ala Arma 2. The biggest problem I think motion tracking has in regards to fps games however is the step and somewhat un natuarl learning curve. It isnt natural to look to the left, see something and then move your head to the right and mouse to the left to center the view on the target with the gun. You have to get over the hill of getting used to this.

[[frl]myke 14]

Still, Kinect is intended to use the entire body, not just the head, therefore from what I've seen I doubt the precision of it only monitoring your head will ever be able to surpass TrackIR, a tool made specifically for tracking head motion.

And this is eliminating Kinect's stupid price tag and its contribution to the prolonging of this motion control fad akin to the current (and useless) 3D fad.

The tech itself is interesting, look at this:

bpC2TXhJGkE

At the very end, the matter is how the tech is included in the game itself. When i heard first about TrackIR i thought "bah, just a toy for nerds" but today i wouldn't miss it. Kinect is new and it has to develop as every new technology.

I guess Kinect could become interesting for the FaceTrackNoIR project aswell.

[Richey79 10]

The tech looks interesting in MS' adverts, but those who've actually had hands on tend to report that it's rather laggy. Look at the games being developed for it: MS seem to want to position it as a Wii with better graphics. Don't get me wrong, it'll be nice to be able to control your media from the sofa with gestures, but I don't think it's going to be responsive enough to be able to truly change the nature of a game like A2. Probably fine for tracking head turning if you're sat close enough, though.

PS Move, on the other hand, is very responsive and a good piece of kit - having tried a mate's setup. It has the potential to be used with more serious games. Of course, you have to be prepared that you'll look like you're waving Ann Summers' latest product around your living room.

Before accusations of bias, I own neither console, but do own and love TIR5 to bits. Would replace it tomorrow if it broke.

Edit: Turns out Molyneaux' demos were BS, as are most Molyneaux projects.

Edited December 24, 2010 by Richey79

[Pulverizer 1]

The thing with TrackIR is as it's name implies, it only reacts to infrared light. It has to filter out ambient infrared noise and doesn't recognize patterns, it just follows 3 dots which represent and x, y and z axle in a virtual Cartesian coordinate system.

Far from efficient.

Say what? Pattern recognition from two visual spectrum images (ie recognice a human shape from all kinds of crap on the background) needs a lot more processing than tracking three bright dots on 1 bit image. You can bet your ass Kinect doesn't run at 120fps (9ms latency) like TrackIR5, and it will have noticeable lag.

Edited October 18, 2010 by Pulverizer

[nukey 10]

From wot i understand Microsoft doesn't own the the rights to the motion capture tech, it was rumored that a PC version is indeed on its way before this Christmas. I have been following kinect from the start, and most people that had a go, weren't that impressed with it. There biggest gripe was the delay, even though it was only very slight. Think I'll hold of the pre-order and see wot its like, once the dust has settled...

[mrcash2009 0]

Myke ... I could not help but laugh my ass off at the comments under that youtube clip :j::butbut::D

[[frl]myke 14]

Myke ... I could not help but laugh my ass off at the comments under that youtube clip :j::butbut::D

To be honest, didn't read the comments as i give a sh** at those naysayers anyway. Just google for "milo molyneux" and read a few articles. I doubt that all of them are fake/untrue.

[mrcash2009 0]

Myke, I was simply commenting on the humour of the posts not the reality of them ... Humour and BIS forums ... likes ships in the night

[TheHarvesteR 11]

You know, this is not at all unfeasable... one might be able to hook it up, given that there is PC software support for it (hoping for a GlovePIE update ;) )... which is also not ureasonable to expect, since all major console controllers have been hooked up to the PC already.

If we can connect a wiimote, a sixaxis, (the xbox pad doesn't count because it was made to)... even a playstation Eye... the kinect should follow shortly :)

Now, about if it outperforms trackIR... no idea... TIR is a dedicated piece of hardware for tracking a VERY specific arrangement of fixed-bandwidth LEDs... move one LED out of that arrangement, and your TIR is worthless.... but this precise setup is also what makes it work so fast... it really knows what it's looking for...

Kinect on the other hand is tracking patterns... it might be really really good at it, and might have all the tracking done inside it, but it's still trying to find the pixels (or voxels, since it knows depth), that make up yourself... it is a longer and more error prone procedure...

It would be cool if it worked well though.... the TIR has the major limitation that you have to wear a headset (or hat) while playing... I don't even mention freetrack because it just doesn't work as well... mainly because you have to build your own head clip, and it's using your webcam, which is not made specifically for tracking LEDs...

Anyways, I would like to see it done yet... :)

Oh, and the kinect doesn't tell depth because it has 2 cameras. the depth sensing is not done through stereoscopy, it's done through a technique called 'time of flight'... it basically consists up shooting IR light forward and measuring how long it takes for each pixel on the cam sensor to fill up (almost to the nanosecond)... it's something akin to a light sonar...

Cheers

[hamm 10]

Myke;1771931']To be honest' date=' didn't read the comments as i give a sh** at those naysayers anyway. Just google for "milo molyneux" and read a few articles. I doubt that all of them are fake/untrue.[/quote']

Project Milo has already been "canceled", it's too ambitious and wouldn't really sell, however they're using what they've developed so far in Kinectimals!.

Va-NXzhciVM

[Zipper5 74]

God, that still makes me cringe...

Anyone notice the jump rope clipping through the tiger?

[Rak 0]

Kinect has a huge input lag so you can forget controlling any "hardcore" games with it. It's only for casual gamers.

Besides, you have to be standing for it to work properly.

[Mr. Charles 22]

I'd use it for proper handsign recognition, so you could use your hand rather than a number combo to control your troops. Another cool example would be custom animations for mission makers, preferably with a output of a file, for easy exchanging. Uh and don't forget the possibility to point directions with your finger (i remember such a feature suggestion, but it was quite some time ago)

[[frl]myke 14]

Well, personally i could imagine something like standing in front of a 50" TV set connected to my PC, a camera recognizing if i lean in any direction for movement control (lean forward to move forward, lean more to move faster), recognizes if i go prone, recognizes my hand signals and based on that give orders to my teammates.

I guess for this the input lag isn't that of importance. And even then, the tech is relatively new, in the future it will be surely improved.

[Dead3yez 0]

I'm not so sure that anyone will be happy running 6km because some noob stole the helicopter. :rolleyes:

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Sounds like a mission design issue to me. 6km by foot isn't really much, only boring, and only if the mission doesn't make it an interesting 6km by spawning some random enemies etc. Noob theft will always happen as long as it isn't specifically prevented.