Make AH-64D glass impervious to 5.56mm rounds

[cmorris975 10]

Was fooling around in the editor today with the helicopters, trying to learn how to fly them. Went outside and popped one 5.56mm round through the cockpit glass and killed the gunner. AFAIK Boeing claims the entire bird is resistant against 12.7mm and smaller caliber bullets.

Thanks for reading :).

[Beagle 684]

We have to inform you that the windshield of a AH-64 is simple plexiglass. We are sorry thats your Apache does not work like advertised, but is is not intended to fly head to head with enemy groud troops while hovering around.

The Canopy of a AH-64 is not bullet proof...it is basically a plastic sheet to keep the dust out, not bullets. To avoid bullest try a littele trick thats works since the days of the AH-1 Cobra...manouver.

Btw: the Hind canopy is also not bulletproof, only the front armour glass plate is...from the side you can shoot the pilot dead with a Makarov.

See the manufacturer website...it states in no line "bulletproof".

http://www.ppg.com/coatings/aerospace/transparencies1/boeing_apache_tb_v4.pdf

Edited August 31, 2010 by Beagle

[Decerto 10]

The book: "In the Company of Soldiers" by Rick Atkinson details an amazing account of Apaches used in the Iraq invasion in 2003.

A whole flight of over 30 Apaches were flying at night toward a town when all of the sudden all the towns lights went off. As they flew over the lights went back on and whole streets were lined by hundreds of men with AK's firing straight up into the air. The flight was had to return to base and the choppers were turned into Swiss Cheese with each one having and average of 27 odd bullet holes in it.

There were a few minor injuries but it really shook them up, they had previously overflown towns at night thinking nothing could touch them. General Petraeus (who was the commander of the 101st at the time and was planning a similiar attack with his own Apaches) took great pains to talk to all the pilots involved and analysed the ambush and made sure his own pilots adjusted their operating procedures in order not to have them fall into the same trap.

Whoever the guy was who organized the ambush was a tactical genius who changed the whole theater of combat for attack choppers simply with AK bullets.

[vilas 477]

you surprised me, i really thought that such attack chopers are bullet-proof for crew, i really thought so

[sick1 13]

Actually, the Apache glass is rated to withstand .50BMG fire. That's me in my Avatar.

[HyperU2 11]

I'd settle for an AI pilot that points the helo towards the enemy instead of deciding to hover with the tail rotor in attack position.

[maddogx 13]

Okay... people claiming complete opposites, both as fact. Either the glass can withstand .50 cal, or can't even take 5.56mm.

So, which is it?

How about some credible sources?

[sick1 13]

I have worked with them in Iraq. I'm sure you can find a bunch of articles on the matter with a Google search. The glass is bullet resistant to some extent like all bullet proof materials.

http://www.facebook.com/note.php?note_id=124487034234715

http://www.aviationexplorer.com/apache_facts.htm

Edited August 31, 2010 by Sick1

[roberthammer 582]

IRL modern Apache have bulletproof glass

http://www.militaryfactory.com/aircraft/detail.asp?aircraft_id=29

http://gocalipso.com/aircraft/apache/apache.php

[NoRailgunner 0]

Most modern attack helicopters do have bulletproof glass. That doesnt say the crew gets invulnerable. Of course they wont see much were the bullet impacts. The airframe is advertised to withstand .50 cal but not the glass cockpit. ;)

[Decerto 10]

Here are the details of the ambush I mentioned, one pilot got hit in the neck but doesn't say where the round penetrated through the tub or the glass:

http://wapedia.mobi/en/2003_Attack_on_Karbala

[Inkompetent 0]

The Apache's canopy is indeed rated to be bulletproof against 12.7mm (.50 cal), but even then it doesn't mean it can't be shot to bits. Just means that each window should survive X number of .50 rounds. I'm not surprised that close range AK fire (i.e. heavy bullets coming fast) in some cases would manage to get through if enough rounds hit the same window.

[Tozmeister 0]

There's quite a bit of spin from the old Iraqi regime about small arms fire downing Apaches as a way of getting militia's motivated.

This Wiki articlehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Najaf_%282003%29 including that same encounter from 24th March 2003. Note the mentioning of "Heavy antiaircraft" as well as small arms fire coming from the town.

A follow up attack on the 26th accounted for "7 anti-aircraft guns, 5 radars, 3 artillery pieces and 25 other vehicles"

[cmorris975 10]

Hmmm... interesting, thanks for the responses. My source was Boeing for the 12.7mm resistant cockpit as well as 23mm survivability from other directions.

---------- Post added at 02:02 AM ---------- Previous post was at 02:01 AM ----------

The Apache's canopy is indeed rated to be bulletproof against 12.7mm (.50 cal), but even then it doesn't mean it can't be shot to bits. Just means that each window should survive X number of .50 rounds. I'm not surprised that close range AK fire (i.e. heavy bullets coming fast) in some cases would manage to get through if enough rounds hit the same window.

In my case I fired one shot on a newly spawned AH-64D through the glass and killed the gunner. Same thing with the hind.

[Inkompetent 0]

In my case I fired one shot on a newly spawned AH-64D through the glass and killed the gunner. Same thing with the hind.

For the Hind it should be like that. You need about a magazine to get through the windshield on the Hind with an AK-74 in ArmA2, but all the glass on the sides in the canpoy are only plexiglass and thus not bullet proof at all.

[max power 21]

I would guess that the flat plate glass in the front is armoured glass and the bubble glass to the sides is not so resistant to bullets.

[cmorris975 10]

Fair enough. The front glass resisted a few hits so I am happy hehe.

[Muahaha 10]

Here are the details of the ambush I mentioned, one pilot got hit in the neck but doesn't say where the round penetrated through the tub or the glass:

http://wapedia.mobi/en/2003_Attack_on_Karbala

Maybe one of the mission designer should do a re-enactment of this battle.

Brno rifle shooting down an apache... That 1 hell of a shooter if it's true...

[Decerto 10]

I don't know what to believe about it anymore. I've read three different accounts now, and they are all inconsistent about exactly what weapons were used. I saw a documentary re-enactment of it on the History channel a while ago and I think it would make an amazing film. I still marvel at the simplicity and audacity of the ambush.

[TechThings 22]

Im Pretty Damn sure the normal CPG and Pilot windows are just plexiglass as we use old AH windows on the shop floor as Non-Metallic Scrapers. You can snap it with your hands. Atleast thats on the British AH

Infact i can remember having to do a door window change because a UT (Technician Under Training) dropped a hammer on one and cracked it.

Its the Sheat of glass that sits inbetween the pilot and the copilot (Blast Screen) that has a degree of bullet resistance as this is to ensure that the one crew member can survive if a round enters the crew space and ricochets.

Edited October 26, 2010 by John Doe

[Daniel 0]

Yeah, the real armour plating is either side below the windows. If you read books where Apaches take fire, the pilots often seem to want to be lower in their seats away from the windows.

[franze 196]

The cockpit armor for AH-64A's is listed here. This would suggest the canopy has little to no armor value.

That being said, shooting through unarmored glass doesn't mean you'll hit the object behind it, especially with small arms. Given the surface hardness, most small arms will deflect rather than go straight and true after hitting glass - or most any solid object for that matter. The physics notwithstanding, it's a whole other ballgame to actually make the kind of shot required to kill the crew while the aircraft is in motion.

[warrior2seven 10]

Just another account here...The side windows are plexiglass, I can push them in with my fingers...the Front, Top, and the window that seperates the Pilot/CPG stations are supposedly rated to with stand 12.7mm...A pilot brought one in a few months ago that he "acquired" from an "A" model and was able to pierce it with both 5.56 and 7.62, but this was an old piece and in a uncontrolled environment...so it is what it is.

[max power 21]

I think that in that case they are saying that it is proof against a 12.7mm from a typical engagement range, and not from say 10 feet or what have you.

[suhsjake 1]

All tests done to figure out how impervious an object is, is done under laboratory situations, not combat. What looks good on paper in the lab is not the same as when it goes to combat.