Recoil (again)

[akd42 10]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

You must have mods affecting your game, as this is not at all what I am experiencing. MGs are far, far more manageable prone than crouching. While prone, I find it easy to keep short M240 bursts on a car-sized target at 500m and house-sized target at 800m. This is perfectly realistic. Changing to crouch it is very difficult to due the same. Again, realistic, except we need to be able to rest our MGs on objects.

Trust me, it feels really wrong. Aiming is already something weird in this game due to control lag etc.

Did some tests with the old recoil system and it was way better.

If some ppl like to feel like uncoordinated or drunk soldier it's not a problem for me but pls think about the rest of us as well by making all these things optional just like the headbob.

No, the new system is much closer to reality. Only a mechanical shooting rest could achieve the performance of the old recoil system.

Edited August 25, 2010 by akd42

[Greez 10]

In general I'm in favour of the recoil system, but in a lot of situations it's overdone, using a machine gun while prone for example. With the current recoil, I am so affected by it that I can only fire one or two rounds with any sort of accuracy while prone, which gives me exactly no advantage over being crouched (other than being less visible). Obviously this is wrong, as a machine gunner you should have a significant advantage for being prone.

we are playing different games ?

latest beta patch

vXrX64PBAhY

[Beagle 684]

People should stop running mods in conjunction with Betas. Wierd recoils are know to happen with some recoil or weapon mods and Beta.

[That guy 10]

you guys dont realize how good you have it. the game automatically gives you perfect breath control, perfect trigger squeeze, perfect stock weld, perfect posture, weightless weapons, and perfect concentration. at all times

go cry a river

[Beagle 684]

It also gives us autoaim if we want. But obviously thats not what the majority wants.

[HyperU2 11]

you guys dont realize how good you have it. the game automatically gives you perfect breath control, perfect trigger squeeze, perfect stock weld, perfect posture, weightless weapons, and perfect concentration. at all times

go cry a river

Not entirely, when you're stressed your aim is all over the place.

I've noticed far too often that when I have a "clear" shot on a target but inadvertently shoot the wall I couldn't see at the tip of my muzzle it stresses my aim as if it was incoming.

[50.cal 10]

Beagle is right!

I had a go with the latest beta yesterday (did not test all weapons) and it was very good with the mk16...

When I had those weird results I did probably use a modded shortcut instead...my bad :S

And moreover now I can run the game with nearly all graph settings maxed out! A pure joy :-)

Now HyperU2 is still right concerning the stamina problem when we shoot a bullet accidentally near us.. since it's not incoming fire it shouldn't affect the stamina.

Going back for more testing now

[megagoth1702 252]

Solution for all your problems...

Dynamic Recoil

[Logan9773 10]

If your looking for recoil, use the latest ACE mod. They do recoil very well.

[b00tsy 28]

I

I think when prone your aim should auto-center (since the weapon is laying on the ground), so you can at least get some decent groups with bursts. I wanted to also suggest making it shake your screen a little more so it's a little harder to follow your target; but still possible to hit them (trying to simulate the gun kicking back more than up while prone).

However I really like the standing and kneeling recoil; seems pretty accurate.

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always. I am not a big fan of the recoil. I tmay be not all to annoying when you play it with 60+ frames a second, but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot, that kinda sucks. I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

No, the new system is much closer to reality. Only a mechanical shooting rest could achieve the performance of the old recoil system.

Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

[50.cal 10]

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always. I am not a big fan of the recoil. I tmay be not all to annoying when you play it with 60+ frames a second, but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot, that kinda sucks. I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

---------- Post added at 10:58 PM ---------- Previous post was at 10:54 PM ----------

Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

I think that concentrating on very small details like the recoil is not the correct way to solve the problem.

From my point of view we should instead look at the general weapon handling and efficiency.

Here are the main problems which need to be solved in order to achieve this goal:

1) Control lag

This problem as always been there since arma 1 and as result it takes way to much time to align you sight on target. It's not direct enough and you feel disconnected from the weapon. Of course low FPS=worst experience.

2) Non lethal hits doesn't affect AI in any noticeable way..

It's like ON/OFF. They are either dead or perfect combatants.

Sometimes I can hit an AI 4 times and it keeps running or eventually start to crawl. No fear, no pain, no morale, nothing stops them except death.

Instead they should retreat, seek cover, go down in agony, lose consciousness etc.

3) Weapon and rounds clipping into objects

Often you'll have your target in the collimator but whatever you do you'll keep shooting in that wall/rock/ground/dead body/AI "gun shield" or any little (visible or not) clipping object in front you (which results in a severe stamina penalty) until the AI puts an end of your misery.

Don't take me wrong, this is not a rant but from my point of view it's more the above described combinations that makes weapons feel wrong in game than just the recoil itself.

[stilpu 0]

1) Turn mouse smoothness off in options.

2) They used to flee back in ArmA1, not sure if this was kept in ArmA2 as well. Agree that more reactions would be useful here.

3) The bullet leaves from the barrel. Even if you can see the target perfectly, due to the height difference of the optics you might still hit a wall. This was more visible in OFP, since the weapon would visibly clip inside objects even in 1st person and you could tell you won't be able to shoot. Also some objects can have misaligned fire geometry, causing you to hit invisible walls, which is probably the fault of the modeler, not the game. Proper weapon collision with walls might help in both cases.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I think the there should be an option to have auto center on always.

For obvious reasons, that won't happen. I think the majority wants it this way too.

but with high 10 / low 20 fps it is pretty annoying. It takes like a socond or more to re aim my weapon after one shot

That's the fps range I'm typically at. As the recoil is consistent upwards, we can anticipate it and start correcting immediately after shot was fired. I can shoot about the same pace as I did, but they may not be as accurate. It does take time to aim your weapon. And in the real life, most shots at these distances are fired with suppressive intent.

I liked ArmA 2 more then OA on that matter.

And for me, it was one of the pet hates. There was no firefights, only kills.

Reality is one thing, playability is the second thing. If it is well balanced then fine, but I think the recoil is over done compared to playability.

So recenter to 100% exact location (full playability) and absolutely no need to reaim your weapon (no realism) is balance to you? I think the balance is perfect. 50% playability (can anticipate where it goes and correct for it), and 50% realism (you have to aim to deliver accurate shots).

[b00tsy 28]

Well of course it just a matter of opinion and taste. The recoil is not bad for close range fire fights, but trying to snipe a guy or with any scoped rifle the gun/scope moves up like 3 meters above your original aim point. In fact there are plenty occasions where I was aiming for a guy at 300 to 500 meters and after 1 shot I totally lost the guy, because my scope was aiming somewhere in the sky. I litterly had to find the ground again and then trying to find the guy again.

The longer the range the worse it gets. I never fired a rifle for real in my life, but I cant imagine that a real sniper is pointing his rifle somewhere in the sky after 1 shot.

[Imperator[TFD] 444]

Well of course it just a matter of opinion and taste. The recoil is not bad for close range fire fights, but trying to snipe a guy or with any scoped rifle the gun/scope moves up like 3 meters above your original aim point. In fact there are plenty occasions where I was aiming for a guy at 300 to 500 meters and after 1 shot I totally lost the guy, because my scope was aiming somewhere in the sky. I litterly had to find the ground again and then trying to find the guy again.

The longer the range the worse it gets. I never fired a rifle for real in my life, but I cant imagine that a real sniper is pointing his rifle somewhere in the sky after 1 shot.

Either something is extremely wrong with your game mate or you're exaggerating.

[That guy 10]

that happens with powerful rounds and powerful scopes from unsupported positions. deal with it

course in real life we have these things "mass" and "gravity" which make the rifle go up, and then down in an unexpected place until you can gain control of it again, and reaim

[whisper 0]

Either something is extremely wrong with your game mate or you're exaggerating.

Or he's shooting from standing position

[50.cal 10]

1) Turn mouse smoothness off in options.

2) They used to flee back in ArmA1, not sure if this was kept in ArmA2 as well. Agree that more reactions would be useful here.

3) The bullet leaves from the barrel. Even if you can see the target perfectly, due to the height difference of the optics you might still hit a wall. This was more visible in OFP, since the weapon would visibly clip inside objects even in 1st person and you could tell you won't be able to shoot. Also some objects can have misaligned fire geometry, causing you to hit invisible walls, which is probably the fault of the modeler, not the game. Proper weapon collision with walls might help in both cases.

1) This just skips frames and kill all mouse precision. To make it simple it doesn't work.

2) There never was any noticeable AI reaction when being shot at expect going prone or die after taking to much damage.

3) I know that but let me tell you I've shot many times with various rifles and I never found myself clipping into a walls nor did I ever shot at a wall because I was aiming lol...anyway.

And now I'm adding a new one. Bullets can't go trough a leg. I've just been tring to kill an AI lying behind an dead unit. I've put about 20 rounds in that leg and none went trough...warf:D...

To Bootsy:

You're probably using a high caliber weapon. Try going prone when using those one. They are not meant to be used unsupported...too much recoil.

Edited September 23, 2010 by 50.cal

[b00tsy 28]

Ok made a quick example vid of it. Dont mind the low 3D res, did that to compensate for the recorder (eats fps)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UVl_CU_HT8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2UVl_CU_HT8

[50.cal 10]

you're using a mod

[b00tsy 28]

1)

To Bootsy:

You're probably using a high caliber weapon. Try going prone when using those one. They are not meant to be used unsupported...too much recoil.

Yeah mainly talking about sniper rifles, but when prone though. And that the scope is in the sky happens mostly when you try to kill guys on the horizon like in my vid, but it does show that it takes quite some time to re aim.

---------- Post added at 01:23 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:23 PM ----------

you're using a mod

Not sure if that was ment for me, but I am using AO vanilla.

[50.cal 10]

which version?

[b00tsy 28]

I am using the latest beta in the vid

[50.cal 10]

I am using the latest beta in the vid

lol then you messed up big time with your addon folder :D

[CarlGustaffa 4]

That does not happen for me. Vanilla latest beta, stra_debug only addon. It doesn't get that bad even if I shoot from standing. Well it goes high up, then it comes back again approximately half way, leaving target in the bottom end of the scope (while zoomed in).