Tactical View. Cheating or not…? Rationale ?

[BeerHunter 0]

PREAMBLE:

I’m playing a down loaded SP mission, VETERAN mode, with 4 man squad , one of who is AT.

Encountered an enemy force of unknown strength supported by a BMP.

Trying to asses enemies position and strength to determine if I should attack (might be only 2 or 3 infantry) or try ambushing the BMP elsewhere as I’m sure we’re going to run into it again sooner or later.

Have my squad well hidden in a gully in “STEALTH†, “STOP†and “HOLD FIRE†so they don’t give away our position awhile I try to crawl in STEALTH , using as much concealment as possible , into a position to reconnoitre the objective(s).

PROBLEM:

I can’t see through the damn grass and as soon as I get into a crouching position so I CAN see, the damn enemy AI pick me off. :confused:

My standard movement is to crawl one or two lengths, stop and try to observe but can’t see anything anyway because of the DAMN GRASS. :mad:

I know the AI are supposed to HEAR well (hence the STEALTH mode) but come on, they are at least 100 yds away in the vicinity of a running BMP and not supposed to know we’re even in the area haven’t encountered anything so far..oh wait , we were “observed†by an enemy chopper that I think is still looking for us as it’s still flying around in the vicinity.

Is the AI really that smart? Could the chopper have advised of our presence? :confused: I just assumed it was flying a designated route (waypoint to waypoint) and would attack if it found anything.

QUESTION:

If I go into an overhead view (third person or tactical) , I can see what I’m looking for but this almost seems like..cheating. After all , IRL , you don’t have an overhead view of the battlefield.

What’s your opinion of using the Tactical view and the reasoning behind it? :cool:

[maturin 12]

I use third person to see above the grass when I'm crawling and feel guilty about that (let alone peeking around corners or over ridges), but the tactical mode is like having one of those HuntIR grenades in ACE2 on all the time. Really cheap.

Maybe if you used it in a High Command mission where the markers are inaccurate and you don't do much shooting.

[Nolegs 0]

It's a game. Play it how you want to play it. The way I look at it is because of the fact that we are sitting in a chair with headphones and a monitor we lose alot of the spacial awareness that we would have if we were in the actual situation. Tactical view gives a bit of that awareness back.

People will say that in real life you can't view your world from over your own shoulder and then I'd say but in real life I could just raise my head a little bit above the grass instead of effectively standing up for the enemy to shoot. If tactical view wasn't there then you have no option to allow you to see above that grass without completely exposing yourself.

[-=seany=- 5]

Edit ^pretty much what he said

I find 3rd person view and tactical view very useful. I think they make up for the lack of awareness you have in a game compared to real life. Only the squad leader gets a birds eye view, he still has to designate targets and let the squad members know what he can see. not easy in the heat of battle.

The same can be said for 3rd person view. Like maturin mentioned about the long grass, in real life it's much easier to slightly pop your head up and or look around grass obstacles.

The option is there to turn these advantages off. I think something is only to be considered cheating when you are giving yourself an advantage by using something the developers had not intended you to use, either by exploit or hack.

[maturin 12]

People will say that in real life you can't view your world from over your own shoulder and then I'd say but in real life I could just raise my head a little bit above the grass instead of effectively standing up for the enemy to shoot. If tactical view wasn't there then you have no option to allow you to see above that grass without completely exposing yourself.

I agree. Some uses of third person are completely justified in order to model human abilities. Looking over the top of a ten foot wall while remaining completely safe is not, and tactical view is near-omniscience.

[trooper117 10]

Ok.. you have to get this in perspective.. I teach this stuff for real, and as good as the game is, it has its limitations.

You will never have any game that is exactly like real combat, there are so many variables that the game can't deal with.

However, in your situation, in a real enviroment in todays modern battlefield, you will be getting realtime info constantly via PRR from every man in your team, (bearing in mind that PRR's have their limitations as well), plus, a real enemy will not be able to see you through dense vegitation or when you are making use of dead ground..

I use the 3rd person perspective when playing against AI as they have the advantage in a way that you, trying to play 'real' in a 1st person view just won't have..

As stated, its a game, and should be enjoyed as such, so you should make use of the extra views that are available to you to make up for the advantages that the AI enjoy.. :D

[eenter 0]

It's cheating, but if it's enabled in the server i use it.

[BeerHunter 0]

Some very interesting comments.

True not being able to peek over an obstacle or the AI's uncanny ability to spot and target you (even with mods that are supposed to adjust this) put you at a disadvantage in FP view.

So tactical/third person it is,as required, for observation (for me anyway).;)

Txs

[Lauxman 10]

It is the same argument as for having a crosshair, at least a slight one. I can tell roughly where a weapon is pointed when I hold it, although I do feel that the crosshair is a bit too good.

3rd person is necessary, especially with the outrageously hard to see through grass on Chernarus.

[trooper117 10]

It's cheating, but if it's enabled in the server i use it.

lol.. how on earth can it be cheating when it's a feature of the 'game'?

It.s only cheating if someones made a mod that suddenly gives you a 3rd person view that the developers didn't want you to have..

Online its certainly better to stay in 1st person view if all participants are 'live' players with no AI involved, that way everyone has the same constraints, but as soon as you are facing an AI enemy, any 'realism' you are trying to achieve goes straight out the window anyway.. the AI cheat like ten men don't they..:D

[77scout 10]

Its not a matter of cheating or not, but simply how you want to play. If you are trying to simulate real life you will refuse to use tactical view because it is an unrealistic ability If you are playing this as just a 'game' then use what ever aids you like.

If the helicopter has spotted you, then yes, probably all enemies know your position and are looking right in your direction. Your guys have radios and communicate info...so do the bad guys AFAIK.

I believe that the AI view is not blocked by grass, so when you think you are well hidden with only your head showing they actually see you as if you are out on the bald prairie, fully exposed. The grass issue is my biggest peeve in ARMA2, and I had to turn the grass fully off to 'level the playing field', otherwise in the grass you are blind and the AI aren't (i.e. you die every time).

[tsb247 0]

I almost never use it.

Although, I find it useful if I have to garrison a position. It's nice to have an overhead view of my entire team so I can position them accordingly and not have to worry about what direction they are facing.

[dmarkwick 261]

Well, until TrackIR is implemented to allow you to raise your head *ever so slightly* to look over or through obstacles, 3rd person is necessary. IMO you cannot demand "realism" by denying aids that replace natural ingame restrictions. So until stereoscopic 3D view and true 6DoF TrackIR is implemented, crosshairs and 3rd person is OK :)

[Daniel 0]

I think the focus should be on making sure the AI can't see through dense vegetation, and that tall grass is either still rendered or partially hides units at distance, rather than settling for a compromise that lets you look round corners and over walls. And besides, crouching behind hard cover beats lying prone in eye level grass every time.

[trooper117 10]

You don't always have hard cover in real life, you also aren't always encased in a nicely protected Warrior.. you may be advancing across open terrain.. (think of the Falklands for instance) when all you have for protection is long grass (cover from view) and a convenient fold in the ground if you are lucky (cover from fire)..

[jasonnoguchi 11]

Well, I use it from time to time under cover or behind grass for that tactical sense. I think that's the purpose of that function. When in the battlefield, you have a much better tactical sense and situational awareness due to having more senses to work with and the tactical view attempts to make up for the lack of those senses.

[LJF 0]

It all depends:

In SP messing around in the editor, no, of course it's not cheating, I use it all the time too.

In MP PvP or when I'm playing seriously, I never use 3rd person/tactical view, it's a bit of an unrealistic advantage.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Trying to control AI against other AI, this kind of "cheating" is inevitable. The tactical overview becomes my only means of getting and analyzing data from my men in real time, while giving them orders. Naturally you're hiding behind cover while doing this as you are an easy target if you don't. Using the 2-Target system is incredibly dubious.

Playing with humans against AI, I consider it a cheat. Sure, AI get some magical abilities like seeing through grass etc. But what I see much of out there in coop games, is continuing an attack from an obviously bad location (grass wise), instead of maneuvering to a better location and retry from there. AI gets their bonuses (grass, communications efficiency), us humans get ours - being able to adopt better to the situation and thinking like a, well, human, instead of being driven by slightly random algorithms.

When I'm actually allowed to join a server while I'm running a "no crosshairs" addon, I still have no problems "shooting from the hip" during close combat when the situation gets tense. Having no crosshairs is only problematic to those who are gaming with freezone above zero. Those who play with zero deadzone (myself included) gets another benefit; no weapon heaviness effect. Try to turn with an M107 with zero deadzone and with full deadzone and you'll see the obvious difference. Personally, I'd like this "mouse lag" to be in effect for everyone, even with deadzone turned all the way down. Full deadzone is more realistic in my view (like it was enforced in OFP), I just have a very hard time handling it. But combining zero deadzone and crosshairs, you have turned a really heavy sniper platform into a CQB cannon.

The game is too often played like a regular shooter with a military theme, instead of a tactical military shooter/simulator, where you actually have to think before you act.

For singleplayer, I have no objections as to what kind of "cheat" you use to obtain your battlefield awareness due to lack of being able to communicate with your units. For online, I'd say that most servers are ruined by using far too much player aids instead of relying on communications and teamwork.

The only times I use 3rd person in MP is in certain vehicles, to orient myself. You may not be able to turn out (commander not turned out) so that you can check your compass, and the vehicle may not have an interior view (tanks only have that viewport overlay) so that you can check your compass. In 3rd person you can access your compass.

[ffur2007slx2_5 11]

I use tactical view to find rabbits hiding in the grass.

[BeerHunter 0]

The game is too often played like a regular shooter with a military theme, instead of a tactical military shooter/simulator, where you actually have to think before you act.

I have to agree wholeheartedly with that statement. Took me ages to get over the BF2 style of playing.

Started using the Tactical view as a substitute for conversing with the AI under my command (they don't answer back anyway :p) I don't feel like I'm giving myself an unfair and unrealistic advantage then.

ie AI reports "man... front... far" .A human player would report "spotted something over by that house" , so with the AI report , the Tactical view seems to allow me to gather more info on the object spotted.

Seems fair enough to me.

[cjph 0]

Interesting views - I've always felt that flying helos and driving vehicles impose unrealistic limitations compared to real life, so I have always used third person view to assist to a greater or lesser extent depending on the mission. More recently I have spent time getting familiar with the controls, and now at least try to fly/drive in first person mode.

I recently found myself looking over a wall using third person which I don't normally do - it is a credit to BIS though as I was too scared to peek around it for fear of taking one for the corps.

However, I think the fairest way could be to limit the third person view to a horizontal pane or field of view, with a setting as to how high above the height of the player can be seen. This could be at least an option to turn on, and a small increment would allow you to see over the grass without exposing yourself to fire, but not see over any obstacles. Not sure how feasible it would be technically though.

[Lauxman 10]

The game is too often played like a regular shooter with a military theme, instead of a tactical military shooter/simulator, where you actually have to think before you act.

Unfortunately, that is all this game's multiplayer is, until ACE servers start getting up and running and we have more than Tactical Gamer for good coop and TvT.

[cossack8559 10]

I use 3rd person view for tanks and choppers only... for infantry and planes i always stay in first person view... there has been times though when i am laying in the grass that i will switch to 3rd person when enemies are near by as they have the advantage of being able to spot me through the grass!

[THEKATZ 0]

It is all about situational awareness and how it can/should be used. You have a flat screen in front of you with little to no peripheral vision. What can you expect from this? The added features such as 3pv gives you a broader view of your situation and is a good tool to have.

As someone mentioned earlier, being able to peak over a 10' wall is a little much but the trade off of having a bit more than a flat panel in front of you as your only window to the game is a welcome trade. IMHO