Actual real life cockpit bullet protection for helicopter pilots

[walker 0]

Hi Lamerinio

I think you missed this post.

Hi all

How many more times will we have to correct these know nothings?

The information here would never be classified because all sides have access to the weapons, classifying such intel is an exercise in futility and a waste of money and time.

Unclassified US Marine Corps tests

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dKhMOfaYwvE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w22M1DAQ59I

Single course Brick walls will not stop 7.62 bullets! No if buts or maybes they do not stop them. In fact 7.62 will go through both walls of a house.

In particular to refute the AK47 wont go through brick myth; see from 3.07 onwards.

I do not know how many more times we will have refute this crap; next myth up will be the AKs are inaccurate crap. Where we will have to explain for what will probably be 1000th time that Russians use the AK74 and AK107 not the old AK47. They also fail to understand the AK47 is designed to be used as an SMG not as a rifle. You fire it full auto and walk the rounds on to the target.

As has been pointed out a number of times that only the frontal glass plate of the HIND is armored, the dome is just plexiglass. While a pistol round at 10m would penetrate the 8mm plexiglass the chance of achieving this other when the aircraft is static at 10m distance or less is virtually zero. The armored glass of the HIND is designed to protect the crew from the front where the danger is. Later HINDs have had segmented armored glass replace some of the plexiglass domes; though this was to do with the fragmentation affect of rounds like the stinger, not for Mr Mujahideen firing his pistol into the cockpit from a mile across the valley as they passed at 150 mph plus.

The affects of bullets on the HIND types shown in the ArmA simulation are IMHO correct.

Kind Regards walker

So once again.

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 23, 2009 by walker

[CG Man 0]

Helicopters are bullet proof all over because I have seen that TV show Airwolf. All experts on here are liars because I don't like people knowing more stuff than me.

only joking :)

In Gulf War II an Apache pilot was hit in the neck by an AK-47 round. If it was AK-47 proof all over it would not be able to take off.

Edited November 23, 2009 by CG Man

[Inkompetent 0]

I'd love to see the weight issues when having 30cm+ thick armoured glass all around the canopy ^^

[ajsarge 10]

One thing I'd like to see (and thought that the military would do) is bullet-proof/resistant glass on the humvees. Right now, a humvee is a death trap when encountering small arms fire.

At least on the up-armored version, which should have small-arms proofed sides (seen pictures of soldiers welding at least 1/4in steel onto their humvees) and run-flat tires. I don't think it's realistic for a rifle to destroy a whole tire.

[maturin 12]

I know that if AK would shoot trough a brick then there would be no buildings left in war zones. You wouldnt need artillery or tanks to level buildings, you would just need 50 men with AK shooting building. And regarding videos that proves me wrong its exactly opposite, there are tonns of videos showing that its not going trough brick wall.

Oh damn, I have to go inform the U.S. Army that their experts and servicemen are incorrect. It's a good thing you're here with your youtube to set the record straight.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Suplimentary to previous post the AK47 was a replacement for the PPSh-41 which was the standard issue to Russian infantry in WWII hense the AK's SMG background.

Kind Regards walker

[Yoma 0]

Damn and i thought the AK was a ripoff of the German Sturmgewehr, which was i think first used in action in the Eastern Front during WWII and basically create the term "Assault Rifle"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sturmgewehr_44

It even "looks" like an AK ;)

Allthough that one too was first "marketed" as a SMG, due to a certain dictator's dislike for change. (Well so the story goes)

[walker 0]

Hi Yoma

Yes the AK47 was a copy of the "concept" of the German Sturmgewehr but the doctrinal and manufaturing elements were that it was to replace PPSh-41 in the same role in the Russian Army. Hence its fire selector goes Safe-Full-Semi.

Incedentaly PPSh-41 was the second most popular SMG of Wehrmacht troops too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PPSH-41

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 23, 2009 by walker

[ffs 10]

It even "looks" like an AK ;)

[Beagle 684]

If you ask me, the StGw44 looks more like a early G3.

Edited November 23, 2009 by Beagle

[walker 0]

Hi all

Compare the above photograph of a stripped down AK47 to that of a stripped down PPS43 a later version of the PPSH-41

From this site:

http://www.enemylines.net/weaponsammo.htm

I think from those we can see the lineage of the AK47. That the selector weights the Full auto over Semi automatic points to its usage concept in Russian Doctrine.

I do not dispute that the German Sturmgewehr is the concept the AK was based on, I just point out that it comes with much broader lineage rather than the incorrect concept of it being a clone of the Sturmgewehr.

Kind Regards walker

Edited November 23, 2009 by walker

[Lamerinio 10]

Hi Lamerinio

I think you missed this post.

So once again.

Kind Regards walker

That is good that you are doing your homework. It was interesting to watch clips youve provided, however, on all movies its either wood they are shooting, none cemented strucktures or shooting at 20 meter range and still not penetrating. The only pen ive seen from these movies were either AK on wood or machinegun from 19 meters away on brick.

So in conclusion no, AK wont pen brick wall. Nor it will pen Hinds pilot's cabin.

Next time when I get more time I will post you some stuff about real war pens not some funcky US baby videos. Besides that, in Arma 2 APC explodes from one rpg, in real life, at least russian APC like BTR-80-90 can take more than one RPG shot and be still functional (deppend where they get shot). But that's another story.

[maturin 12]

The only pen ive seen from these movies were either AK on wood or machinegun from 19 meters away on brick.

4:33. AK penetrates brick, block, and sheet rock at a 45 degree angle.

And I've never seen an Arma APC blow up in one RPG hit, except maybe the advanced warhead.

I was shocked to see that M203s will penetrate brick.

[Beagle 684]

Besides that, in Arma 2 APC explodes from one rpg, in real life, at least russian APC like BTR-80-90 can take more than one RPG shot and be still functional (deppend where they get shot). But that's another story.

It is well know that for light APCs and similar light armoured vehicles HMGs are a highter threat than RPGs. The RPG metal jet will just go thru both sides of the APC only affecting whats in its way, just like a HMG projectile.

[max power 21]

That is good that you are doing your homework. It was interesting to watch clips youve provided, however, on all movies its either wood they are shooting, none cemented strucktures or shooting at 20 meter range and still not penetrating. The only pen ive seen from these movies were either AK on wood or machinegun from 19 meters away on brick.

So in conclusion no, AK wont pen brick wall. Nor it will pen Hinds pilot's cabin.

Next time when I get more time I will post you some stuff about real war pens not some funcky US baby videos. Besides that, in Arma 2 APC explodes from one rpg, in real life, at least russian APC like BTR-80-90 can take more than one RPG shot and be still functional (deppend where they get shot). But that's another story.

And if you need to see it again:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NVQPBmhpI-Y

This video tests 9mm, 223, 5.45 soviet, and 7.62 soviet against cinder blocks.

I hope we can now all be on the same page about 7.62 soviet penetrating cinder blocks.

[HyperU2 11]

Sometimes the clueless are so for a reason.

[maturin 12]

Bringing up this old topic.

I was trying to figure out why Hinds are nearly 100% useless against tanks, and will almost always be shot down. Besides drastically less hitpoints (or so it seems to me) than the cobra and a predisposition to engine failure, the pilots are always getting shot.

Other people have shown that the glass bullet protection is realistic for small arms. It is, however, absolutely zero protection from the main machine gun on a tank. This is because the glass doesn't stop the bullet, it simply slows it down so blood spurts from the pilot's head, but he only loses maybe 10% of his hitpoints. The heavy machine gun round, however, does so much damage that the reduction of the glass is not enough to prevent a one-shot fatality. The canopy is intact, but the man is dead as if it was never there.

And I'm talking about the frontal plate, not the bubble.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Helicopters kill tanks by two methods. Static long range and/or pop up guided missile attacks. And high speed rocket or cannon attacks.

The tank can only kill helicopters it can see, or bring its weapons to bear on.

Ideally use the radar and click or tab targeting to target an armor target with long rage pop up guided missile attack. Ideally beyond the range of the armored unit.

If you need to make a direct attack then choose a masked ingress and egress and minimise time over the target. Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) while in ingress and egress is also needed.

SEAD can be very complex including HE, anti armor, and fire in the form of WP that also performs the function of providing smoke. All of which force armor to button up reducing the enemies situational awareness and fire capabilities. Smoke both marks the target and obscures the vision needed for non radar controlled weapons. Other weapons firing on a target increases the number of threats it must assess as well as the disruption and shock suppression they supply.

The idea that a helicopter is some kind of god that wonders invulnerable around the battlefield is frankly ill informed.

A helicopter is an asset like any other it has vulnerabilities weaknesses and strengths. The strongest warrior on the field can be laid low by a child with a slingshot.

Kind Regards walker

[maturin 12]

Hi all

Helicopters kill tanks by two methods. Static long range and/or pop up guided missile attacks. And high speed rocket or cannon attacks.

The tank can only kill helicopters it can see, or bring its weapons to bear on.

Ideally use the radar and click or tab targeting to target an armor target with long rage pop up guided missile attack. Ideally beyond the range of the armored unit.

If you need to make a direct attack then choose a masked ingress and egress and minimise time over the target. Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) while in ingress and egress is also needed.

SEAD can be very complex including HE, anti armor, and fire in the form of WP that also performs the function of providing smoke. All of which force armor to button up reducing the enemies situational awareness and fire capabilities. Smoke both marks the target and obscures the vision needed for non radar controlled weapons. Other weapons firing on a target increases the number of threats it must assess as well as the disruption and shock suppression they supply.

The idea that a helicopter is some kind of god that wonders invulnerable around the battlefield is frankly ill informed.

A helicopter is an asset like any other it has vulnerabilities weaknesses and strengths. The strongest warrior on the field can be laid low by a child with a slingshot.

Kind Regards walker

But the thing is, when I use the AH-1z I can get away with careening about the sky over enemy tanks and it's like they're firing rubber bullets at me. They can almost never shoot me down. With a Hind, which is much more durable in real life, doing the same thing gets you killed.

Which is a problem because the ATGMs carried by the P and V variants are worthless.

Doesn't the front plate offer *some* protection from an HMG?

Edit: AI Hinds actually refuse to use their ATGMs, and perform rocket attacks almost always.

Edited December 11, 2009 by maturin

[Jennik 0]

Hi all

Helicopters kill tanks by two methods. Static long range and/or pop up guided missile attacks. And high speed rocket or cannon attacks.

The tank can only kill helicopters it can see, or bring its weapons to bear on.

Ideally use the radar and click or tab targeting to target an armor target with long rage pop up guided missile attack. Ideally beyond the range of the armored unit.

If you need to make a direct attack then choose a masked ingress and egress and minimise time over the target. Suppression of Enemy Air Defense (SEAD) while in ingress and egress is also needed.

SEAD can be very complex including HE, anti armor, and fire in the form of WP that also performs the function of providing smoke. All of which force armor to button up reducing the enemies situational awareness and fire capabilities. Smoke both marks the target and obscures the vision needed for non radar controlled weapons. Other weapons firing on a target increases the number of threats it must assess as well as the disruption and shock suppression they supply.

The idea that a helicopter is some kind of god that wonders invulnerable around the battlefield is frankly ill informed.

A helicopter is an asset like any other it has vulnerabilities weaknesses and strengths. The strongest warrior on the field can be laid low by a child with a slingshot.

Kind Regards walker

I do agree with you absolutely.

I'm not the military neither have I worked in military. I'm just a kind of fan of everything flyable and helicopters in particular. I have bought and read several books written by Vietnam veteran pilots of Loaches, Cobras and Hueys, I have spoken to several real world military pilots flying Mi-24 and some jets too just to learn how to fight with the helicopter. And, everything I have learned was that the most essencial condition to survive as helicopter pilot was these two things:

1. The damn good luck
   
2. The perfect flying skills and tactic
   

Here are few examples what to do, if you want to be shut down flying helicopter in real life. Please, compare it to your flying in ARMA 2:

• Fly low and slow
  
• Expose yourself to enemy fire (even small firearms) for more than few seconds while flying below 1000m
  
• Fly your attack run stright and narrow to the target in the predictable way being visible long time before you push the trigger
  
• After your attack run, make a high and slow turn, being perfect slow and harmless target for a long time
  
• Return to the hot zone in predictable way, if possible from the same direction you left it last time.
  
• Try to shot down something hovering face-to-face just 100m of the target
  

One would say he would never fly like this. But, I must say, I see people flying helicopters in ARMA2 in exactly the same way during MP sessions I play every week. I even catch myself sometime doing the same mistakes again and again. And that's it. Any armor and armanent doesn't have any sense or efficiency if you didn't use it properly.

Edited December 11, 2009 by Jennik
Typo

[maturin 12]

• Fly low and slow
  
• Expose yourself to enemy fire (even small firearms) for more than few seconds while flying below 1000m
  
• Fly your attack run stright and narrow to the target in the predictable way being visible long time before you push the trigger
  
• After your attack run, make a high and slow turn, being perfect slow and harmless target for a long time
  
• Return to the hot zone in predictable way, if possible from the same direction you left it last time.
  
• Try to shot down something hovering face-to-face just 100m of the target
  

In short, precisely what the AI will do every time, even if they have Hellfires and VIKHRs and can engage from miles away.

[Alex72 1]

In short, precisely what the AI will do every time, even if they have Hellfires and VIKHRs and can engage from miles away.

That is true, but i think ARMA2 works different from ArmA regarding View Distance Fog. In ArmA AI could shoot at things they didnt see - out in the fog. But in ARMA2 i noticed an aircraft will not do anything until he comes into your set VD. This to make it fair. So that we dont get shot by AI's we cant see. So the "miles away" is scrapped unless you play with big VD. I notice my helicopters do attack from far - but they do fly in over the eAI and mess up a lot. However i dont think its easy to make them behave like players. Good players that is lol... :)

[maturin 12]

That is true, but i think ARMA2 works different from ArmA regarding View Distance Fog. In ArmA AI could shoot at things they didnt see - out in the fog. But in ARMA2 i noticed an aircraft will not do anything until he comes into your set VD. This to make it fair. So that we dont get shot by AI's we cant see. So the "miles away" is scrapped unless you play with big VD. I notice my helicopters do attack from far - but they do fly in over the eAI and mess up a lot. However i dont think its easy to make them behave like players. Good players that is lol... :)

That's a factor, but not the issue. Helicopters behave like planes, performing attack runs over the enemy's head, then circling back around. They will advance at full speed while shooting hellfires and VIKHRs (or, if they have the misfortune to be flying a Hind, ignoring their Falanga and Ataka missiles).

Shouldn't they be hovering or slowly advancing/strafing at the edge of view distance, firing their precision guided munitions from a safe distance? Or at least doing the slow leapfrog the AI use while on patrol? It might make them more vulnerable to MANPADs and AA cannons, but it wouldn't expose them to close range, frontal small arms fire.

[krycek 349]

Here are few examples what to do, if you want to be shut down flying helicopter in real life. Please, compare it to your flying in ARMA 2:

• Fly low and slow
  
• Expose yourself to enemy fire (even small firearms) for more than few seconds while flying below 1000m
  
• Fly your attack run stright and narrow to the target in the predictable way being visible long time before you push the trigger
  
• After your attack run, make a high and slow turn, being perfect slow and harmless target for a long time
  
• Return to the hot zone in predictable way, if possible from the same direction you left it last time.
  
• Try to shot down something hovering face-to-face just 100m of the target
  

Usually I don't like to fly alone,I'm not fond of the "one chopper to rule them all" idea,so I always have with me 1-2 AI choppers.Well that little guide you wrote let me tell you that the AI is following some points from there very fanatically.

Yes it's very realistic to keep the distance from that tank(and very obvious in my opinion) and not to charge that armor like a flying catapult from 50-100 meters yelling "Banzai" but first let's try to educate the AI,then we'll talk what is realistic or not.

Human pilots can learn but everything wrote here about realistic flying pales when AI takes these gunships to the sky.

[randir14 10]

I've noticed in ACE 2 that airplane and helicopter canopies are now immune to smaller calibers like 9mm and 5.56, anything bigger will penetrate. IMO this is better than the vanilla system.