[60141] AI formation - Thoughts ...

[mrcash2009 0]

Hi,

I notice the most recent deals with more AI formation control. So it prompted me to post a thread on this.

I still notice that after using latest patch I get (still get) the following (and im not suggesting patch has made things worse BTW) ..

1. If Im walking ahead steady and change formation on-the-fly, AI shift into formation well enough.

2. If Im walking and then change formation, and then turn 90 degrees AI will still bunch up and wont shift into there places at all well while walking. Unless I stop still. Then AI will auto think "oops quick into formation" and start jostling for position. If I then move before they all get into position some out of formation will start to follow and not find thier spot while walking .. I stop, and finally those will slot into place.

So .. is there a way, and was the patch supposed to help so doesn't take the leader to stop still each time and wait until they all slot into place for them to work things out?

Its as if AI cant force themselves to find positions as smooth as when leader (me) is walking straight, when turning they then need a "stop and wait for them to work it out moment".

What do others think of this?

Edited November 13, 2009 by mrcash2009

[Fireball 16]

Well, they do adjust after you walk on for a while, it just takes longer

And for some soldiers it's impossible to get into the new formation since they cannot/should not run faster to catch up next or ahead of you for the new postition - do you want an outpowered soldier in the battle just for the sake of a formation change while running?

[the_shadow 0]

i got another formation related "wish" for future patch...

would it be possible to make the AI soldiers trying to keep formation even in battle?

so they DONT run away 300m ahead of you and the other soldiers..

or the entire squad dispersing into a 500x500m area getting killed..

thats just not very realistic..

if they could try to keep within say 20m from the squad mates and trying to stay somewhat in formation (but still moving from cover to cover ofcourse) it would feel a lot better..

AI fighting in formation, now THAT would be realistic and challanging.

[vasmkd 12]

How about a "stay close under any circumstance" command

[sabre4809 0]

What I notice about the formations is,

1. when you make a 'return to formation' command it orientates the squad in the direction you are looking(good).

2.Then While moving forward, say north they constantly orientate towards that direction, if you then turn right to head east they are still orientated north (good imo), but while you continue walking the orientation slowly changes to east(proportional to distance moved, so run=fast change, walk=slow.

3. Then if you stop dead, they seem to sometimes keep orientation but sometimes change to face somewhere else, where and why and don't know(bad).

No. 3 changing/being fixed would be awesome as it really iritates me when I am approaching a enemy position in the woods(close contact) and stop to check things out, check flanks etc, then they go and turn to face somewhere else say 90 deg right and the guy on the far left of the formation is now MUCH closer than I wanted him to be and potentially dead in seconds, while the other side are further and my line or wedge hasd turned into a file, but as soon as I move they try get back again.

[Alex72 1]

I would also like AI in your squad that are in a couple of vehicles to stay together. Ordering your AI into 3 cars where you drive the first will leave the other 2 to their fate lol. If you drive real slow they can catch up, but not if you floor it (or drive with normal speed "W"). The second car manages to keep on a little better than the third wich usually gets lost all the time.

I guess there is no easy solution to this though. Wouldnt really want magical "catch up" system. Hope there will be some improvements around all this though as the game is really getting good. :)

[ACF 0]

If formations are too rigidly enforced the group is going to look too artificial. To counteract the bunching on formation/direction changes, perhaps it would help to:

i) delay the response a bit to give a unit more time to 'think' where it needs to be.

ii) during this pause, units kneel or lie down, not stand and shuffle. This is especially relevant to those on the inside flank of the turn.

From the simulation point of view, confusion and loss of formation is a realistic consequence of formation/direction changes: random wandering gets punished, planning and forethought get rewarded.

Regarding the_shadow's comment on units breaking formation: I do wonder if the 'engage at will' logic is a bit too aggressive compared to 'engage'.

Am I reading this right:

[60129] Fixed: AI subordinates now move faster (use less cover) to catch up when leader is way ahead of them.

The 'suicidal leader' fix is to make the rest of the group more suicidal? Not quite what I had in mind (Bug 2171 > 2551) but it is an improvement.

[walker 0]

Hi all

For the record IMHO the AI maintains formation better than humans. In MP most leaders do not give Line Of March (LOM) often enough. At each waypoint and change of direction the leader should issue the new LOM. The need to pause when changing LOM is as others have said simulated by the AI in the time it takes to change formation. I will say that humans keep up better some of the time, except when they seem to daydream, though their ability to maintain actual formation is sketchy. A Gap in the line is a very human action even with the the map and a marker system. I think the real problem with most human players is a failure to understand the concept of the line.

For AI

Judicious use of the "Aware" and "Danger" states helps maintain formation. If you need the AI to move quickly to formation set them to aware. To counter act the increased risk from using "Aware" in contact tell the AI to "Stay Crouched" after it. Then go back to "Danger".

As a leader tell the AI to advance. It stops you from being the suicidal leader. if you have a large force of AI split them into two groups so you have tactical flexibility. Widening your line by telling one group to flank a couple of times reduces the effectiness of enemy cover, but as always do as the tactical situation and topology of the ground demands.

Kind Regards walker

[AnimalMother92 10]

zGuba's gameplay mods fix this pretty much. it has a feature that makes squads stick together even under combat w/o looking artificial. but a real BIS fix would be nice too

[mr_centipede 31]

zGuba's gameplay mods fix this pretty much. it has a feature that makes squads stick together even under combat w/o looking artificial. but a real BIS fix would be nice too

True to that... if the reason the AI is moving all over the place, thats because the AI leader issuing engage/attack command. So that means his AI subordinate will break formation and find a 'better' firing position.

What zGuba did was using enableAttack false, so the AI will not issue engage command, unless by some calculations the odds for engaging is good, then the AI leader will have enableAttack true again.

[fabrizio_t 58]

True to that... if the reason the AI is moving all over the place, thats because the AI leader issuing engage/attack command. So that means his AI subordinate will break formation and find a 'better' firing position.

What zGuba did was using enableAttack false, so the AI will not issue engage command, unless by some calculations the odds for engaging is good, then the AI leader will have enableAttack true again.

Agree, this workaround help keeping group tight under some circumstances.

[mrcash2009 0]

I think this got lost a little .. I agree under attack but all i was referring to was simple formation keeping while switching formation and walking under "aware" (my first post all refer to under aware mode maybe I should have made that clearer) and me as the leader.

What im trying to point out is .. in this situation while walking straight all is well and they slip into formation well, when turning they bunch .. and yes after time they will get into formation ... but ... and this is the point I was making, they wont "realise they are out of formation" fully until you stop still, only then do they start forming and actually making the move out of the bunching / jump to attention and slip into formation.

So my point about formation fixing is, shouldn't the AI slip into formation and "realise" like they do when you stop still .. without you having to stop still.

Another proof of this is say you stop still ... they start jostling into position ... but, you then walk before they all do ... some not in place will then ignore finding there spot and follow you out of the formation, then, stop still again and those final stragglers realise and hop to it.

Im referring to scenarios of turning and bunching, in a bunched up situation they wont slip into formation as good as straight and you always get into a "stop still to remind them" situation, if they did what they do when you stand still but on the move that = AI fix for formation.

Edited November 15, 2009 by mrcash2009

[Alex72 1]

There is a big problem with this i agree. The biggest problem to me atm is that the slightest slope in the terrain will make the AI not fall into formation based on your heading.

For example if i am on a small slope and looking north, and im telling my AI's to go LINE they will not form to my left and right, but instead from NW to SE so i have units in front of me. This has made me so mad i even shot my own AI and turned missions off. I can tell them GET BACK! and they start to move to the correct places, but then breaks that and moves back to the failed formation. They just dont form the way you look at.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

And I guess you've already noticed how "in front of" is now to whatever direction their formation is? AI reports makes no sense after this bug kicks in. And when it does kick it, I seem to have no means of getting it back to normal.

But no, I think it is normal that they don't adjust to the way you look, only to the way you were last walking. And by walking, you have to walk longer than you might expect. But when the bug kicks in, you can walk forever and formationDir will appear to be stuck or something.

Annoying as hell.

[fabrizio_t 58]

I think this got lost a little .. I agree under attack but all i was referring to was simple formation keeping while switching formation and walking under "aware" (my first post all refer to under aware mode maybe I should have made that clearer) and me as the leader.

What im trying to point out is .. in this situation while walking straight all is well and they slip into formation well, when turning they bunch .. and yes after time they will get into formation ... but ... and this is the point I was making, they wont "realise they are out of formation" fully until you stop still, only then do they start forming and actually making the move out of the bunching / jump to attention and slip into formation.

So my point about formation fixing is, shouldn't the AI slip into formation and "realise" like they do when you stop still .. without you having to stop still.

Another proof of this is say you stop still ... they start jostling into position ... but, you then walk before they all do ... some not in place will then ignore finding there spot and follow you out of the formation, then, stop still again and those final stragglers realise and hop to it.

Im referring to scenarios of turning and bunching, in a bunched up situation they wont slip into formation as good as straight and you always get into a "stop still to remind them" situation, if they did what they do when you stand still but on the move that = AI fix for formation.

Sorry, i previously misunderstood the probem.

While a group is moving while not in COMBAT or STEALTH mode i'd like too to see formation constantly constrained to direction of movement vector.

The behaviour you described is very likely to be a bug.

Would you mind to post the issue onto the bugtracker ?

---------- Post added at 03:35 PM ---------- Previous post was at 03:26 PM ----------

They just dont form the way you look at.

This is a whole different story in my opinion, as CarlGustaffa already pointed out.

Personally i am definetely NOT wishing to have units aligning in formation depending on the direction i am LOOKING AT, i am wishing them to align based on the direction i am acually MOVING towards. So no movement = no further formation adaptation.

Imagine the case you, as a leader, just rotate 180° to look back: are you sure your squaddies are supposed to rotate around you as well ?

Best solution to handle formation direction when NOT moving would probably be having a proper menu command (we have a "watch" command working on unit level, we need one working on group level).

Edited November 18, 2009 by fabrizio_T

[BeerHunter 0]

I know it's a minor thing but the voice commands the game issues sometimes are confusing. Maybe a little consistency in some of them?

Don't know how many times I've issued a "regroup" command and heard "fall back" (which usually means a retreat under fire).

Other than that so far I've been quit satisfied with the way the AI seems to obey commands.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Best implementation would be a command that changes formation direction based on the direction you are facing. I don't want my AI to constantly change depending on where I'm looking, but sometimes I want them to. Say i.e. the tactical situation have changed and we have multiple contacts coming in far to our right. I select the command, and our line defense changes direction, without the need to move quite far to achieve it. And without micromanaging each AIs position.

[sabre4809 0]

Best implementation would be a command that changes formation direction based on the direction you are facing. I don't want my AI to constantly change depending on where I'm looking, but sometimes I want them to. Say i.e. the tactical situation have changed and we have multiple contacts coming in far to our right. I select the command, and our line defense changes direction, without the need to move quite far to achieve it. And without micromanaging each AIs position.

Return to formation does just that.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Yes, or is supposed to. When the bug kicks in, the command fails. They will return, then go back to messed up formation dir. I wasn't aware that it was supposed to work that way. Guess most of the time when I've tried it, the formation dir has become messed up. Works as you say when I try it from the editor with nothing else going on.

[mr_centipede 31]

Yes, or is supposed to. When the bug kicks in, the command fails. They will return, then go back to messed up formation dir. I wasn't aware that it was supposed to work that way. Guess most of the time when I've tried it, the formation dir has become messed up. Works as you say when I try it from the editor with nothing else going on.

It's not really a bug (maybe it is), but rather that the AI 'knows' the enemy is at the direction they are facing. Giving them "NO TARGET" order will sometime cancel the effect. But sometimes, esp if the enemy is a helo far-far away, they will turn to 'meet' this enemy again. Yes, it is annoying as hell

[fabrizio_t 58]

Best implementation would be a command that changes formation direction based on the direction you are facing. I don't want my AI to constantly change depending on where I'm looking, but sometimes I want them to. Say i.e. the tactical situation have changed and we have multiple contacts coming in far to our right. I select the command, and our line defense changes direction, without the need to move quite far to achieve it. And without micromanaging each AIs position.

Exactly ...

[Alex72 1]

So i didnt explain myself well as you say (CG and Fabrizio) that i was wrong somehow.

The way im moving, have moved and are facing. Im facing the direction we are at that time moving. I stop. I tell my AI to form LINE (or any formation - doesnt matter) but they cannot form because we are on a slope. The slope can be heavy and therefor would be logical that the AI might get a bit messed up thanks to that, but im talking slight slope. Nothing-to-talk-about-slopes, and the AI will not form ON ME. Im the friggin leader and im telling them to get into a LINE formation based on the way im heading. But they cant.

When i move a little bit away from any ground that is sloped - flat ground - they do exactlly as i say.

Is that something I do wrong? Cant really see how that would be. Conclusion: There is a problem for AI and forming on leader thanks to sloping ground. Ground that is not perfectlly flat.

EDIT: HA! Problem fixed in 60295! No more wrong formations on slopes. Always perfect formations so far in my tests. Stock islands and custom ones. BIS does it again. :)

Edited November 20, 2009 by Alex72

[Scrub 0]

EDIT: HA! Problem fixed in 60295! No more wrong formations on slopes. Always perfect formations so far in my tests. Stock islands and custom ones. BIS does it again. :)

wOOt!

(I love it when problems become non-issues)

[mrcash2009 0]

Until .......

http://forums.bistudio.com/showthread.php?t=90642

[f2k sel 164]

Is the "none" command broken in the "Edit Menu Special" or has it always been this way.

You can position your men anywhere you like "grouped" but as soon as you start the game they all move back to formation.

I find this really annoying, I've had to go back to 60141 because of crashes is it still the same in 60295?

Another problem for me is that if I have my men set to column compact and I send them to a specific location bush, shed, vehicle ect they abandon the column compact formation resulting in only one man at the exact location the others are spread out in the open again.

Maybe a double click when pointing to a location to move to could be used to force them all to keep a close formation.

Edited November 22, 2009 by F2k Sel