FlexiAI (WIP) discussion

[fabrizio_t 58]

Thx for your interest people.

Great to see this work being continued.

Don't like doing this but I love the possibilities of this mod: any chance there are some SLX features to be included?

Solus did a huge work with SLX, a mod grown with a lot of stunning features.

My objective with FlexAI is simply trying to strengthen AI combat performance, that's already an enormous deal for my limited skills.

Was that video to showcase friendly AI? Cause I couldnt see much of the enemy -lol! -good luck!

Yes i'm sorry, videos should let you peek around and see how friendlies behave. See stance, suppression, movement, grenade lobbing ...

So will this replace ZeusAI or be designed to compliment it? I don't mind either way as long as we get AI that are 'intelligent'!

AFAIK ZeusAI core features rely upon a custom CfgAISkill config.

FlexAI does this kind of skill handling dynamically and not by config.

Skill values are rescaled in non-linear fashion to fit gameplay.

The final effect is not much different if compared to ZeusAI settings, but i can retain the advantage to fine-tune the settings directly in-game, plus skill tweaks may be applied per-class at runtime. For example different accuracy presets/patterns may be eventually applied in real-time when switching current weapon to AT, sniper rifle, machinegun or assault rifle ...

So all in all FlexAI is partly planned to do what ZeusAI already does and a bit more: this is the "FlexAI tactical toolkit". It handles skill, stance, formation & movement patterns, suppression fire, incoming fire ballistics, smoke and grenade lobbing, non-critical damage handling (no more sudden death when hit in the foot) and more.

The other half of the mod would be the "FlexAI strategical toolkit" responsible for commanding groups, handling objectives, directing reinforcements, providing artillery support and transportation.

Edited March 14, 2011 by fabrizioT

[kremator 1065]

Well, you got my vote with that explanation mate !

Good on ya. Anything that enhances this game even further is awesome.

The other half of the mod would be the "FlexAI strategical toolkit" responsible for commanding groups, handling objectives, directing reinforcements, providing artillery support and transportation.

OMG YES !

[Voyage 34 10]

The work on the best mod to come resumes! hooray

Keep on this way..(and don't forget your family eheh)

btw did you liked the AI improvement in beta 77706? I think they have a "cleaner" behaviour now when moving, and they also take cover better.

Last question: does your mod improve somehow even the delta and column behaviour (in AI leaded squad obviously)? because the idea of differentiate them from the rest was great, but practically as they are implemented now they are unusable.

[Cytreen 14]

Will look into it as long as i can generate random units from DAC and release them from the DAC system to FlexAI. Like DAC to GL4 but without the anoying markers when running in script mode. Would also like to have a script only version as its too limiting to have people to have an addon. Would also love it to be capable of running server side only and have FlexAI take over released DAC Units but still need the option to be in script form for local hosted with small groups. Also ACE compatibility.

[Grey-Legolas 10]

Thx a lot for your work! In my opinion AI in Arma is the first thing which has to be improved and if your addon fix "stupid AI" particularity of the game it will really became the â„–1 mod among all Arma community. Anyway, i`m sure it was said already here thousands of times so just thank you for you time and work again and god luck!

-GL

[giorgygr 61]

Hey Fab

I was wondering about any enhancements on A.I reaction under fire from Ground Vehicles

and especially Air vehicles..

Either way or another-i strongly believe this mod will transform my team's Coop nights from killing "mindless" A.I ->closer to "adrenaline way"

Regards

[thearies 12]

this are really great news... as said before, vanilla AI is a no go and for me every AI enhancement the most wanted thing in arma2 :)

[kage74 10]

It's about time someone sent the AIs back to basic. They're out there acting like a bunch of artards. It'll be great to see them moving and maneuvering more like real people would under fire in a combat situation. I do have a couple questions though…

Are you going to improve their driving skills as well? The AIs in ArmA 2 have absolutely terrible pathfinding skills. They are forever driving offroad or missing their turn and when they have to turn around they end up making a 10-point road turn instead of a 3-point turn or U-turn. They are always getting stuck in alleys and narrow streets. I think even a 5yo would make a better driver…

The other question relates to how AIs see things or rather spot an enemy. It seems the AIs in ArmA 2 all have hawk eyes when it comes to spotting an enemy at distance. I could be crawling on my belly through waist high grass on a wooded hillside almost a km away and somehow they still manage to spot me. Not only can they spot me, but they can accurately engage me with non-scoped weapons and full-auto weapons. They also don't seem to have the same problems with recoil or fatigue that humans would have.

I realize we're dealing with AIs that have limited intelligence and reasoning skills. All of their actions are just programed responses. They can't of course actually think the way we do. But it just seems to me…if a human couldn't do it, the AI shouldn't be able to either. If a human can do something then an AI should be able to as well. Or at least that should be the goal.

I'm sorry if you've already answered these questions, but the post was 26 pages long and I didn't read the whole thing…

=^.^=,,,

[turin turambar 0]

It's great to see this project active again. After so many months without any post of Fabrizio, i thought he had left the community.

The thing i am more interested with this mod is the improved/more realistic "strategic" AI, instead of the tactical performance (cover to cover movement, supressive fire, etc). Because it's the lacking point of Arma 2, squads in Arma 2 only move from A to B shooting at every enemy they see, without any kind of planning/target assignment/context of what weapons systems they have.

An enemy modern tank and only have pistols? No problems for the AI, they will make the same actions as if the enemy was a cow.

[dernt 0]

Can't wait for FlexAI!! Sooo much good in this video

[fabrizio_t 58]

The work on the best mod to come resumes! hooray

Keep on this way..(and don't forget your family eheh)

btw did you liked the AI improvement in beta 77706? I think they have a "cleaner" behaviour now when moving, and they also take cover better.

Last question: does your mod improve somehow even the delta and column behaviour (in AI leaded squad obviously)? because the idea of differentiate them from the rest was great, but practically as they are implemented now they are unusable.

AI is getting better and better in recent (beta) patches.

Delta and compact column formation are pretty buggy at the moment and close to useless, i agree.

I think we need a proper BIS fix for that.

Hey Fab

I was wondering about any enhancements on A.I reaction under fire from Ground Vehicles

and especially Air vehicles..

Either way or another-i strongly believe this mod will transform my team's Coop nights from killing "mindless" A.I ->closer to "adrenaline way"

Regards

FlexAI has built-in incoming fire detection routines.

That means that theoretically any units may react to bullets flying around, even if fired from a far spot (e.g. sniper shot). They'll eventually drop to ground or move into cover. Actually these expensive routines are restricted to the MAN class in order to keep CPU overhead reasonably low, but the may be extended after better optimization.

It's about time someone sent the AIs back to basic. They're out there acting like a bunch of artards. It'll be great to see them moving and maneuvering more like real people would under fire in a combat situation. I do have a couple questions though…

Are you going to improve their driving skills as well? The AIs in ArmA 2 have absolutely terrible pathfinding skills. They are forever driving offroad or missing their turn and when they have to turn around they end up making a 10-point road turn instead of a 3-point turn or U-turn. They are always getting stuck in alleys and narrow streets. I think even a 5yo would make a better driver…

The other question relates to how AIs see things or rather spot an enemy. It seems the AIs in ArmA 2 all have hawk eyes when it comes to spotting an enemy at distance. I could be crawling on my belly through waist high grass on a wooded hillside almost a km away and somehow they still manage to spot me. Not only can they spot me, but they can accurately engage me with non-scoped weapons and full-auto weapons. They also don't seem to have the same problems with recoil or fatigue that humans would have.

I realize we're dealing with AIs that have limited intelligence and reasoning skills. All of their actions are just programed responses. They can't of course actually think the way we do. But it just seems to me…if a human couldn't do it, the AI shouldn't be able to either. If a human can do something then an AI should be able to as well. Or at least that should be the goal.

I'm sorry if you've already answered these questions, but the post was 26 pages long and I didn't read the whole thing…

I have no clue on how to work out driving/pathfinding, sorry.

AI needs fixes for accuracy and fatigue values in my opinion and both these points have been addressed.

Also there are some rather big problems with threats detection. I'm trying to find some workarounds to lessen these issues.

Will look into it as long as i can generate random units from DAC and release them from the DAC system to FlexAI. Like DAC to GL4 but without the anoying markers when running in script mode. Would also like to have a script only version as its too limiting to have people to have an addon. Would also love it to be capable of running server side only and have FlexAI take over released DAC Units but still need the option to be in script form for local hosted with small groups. Also ACE compatibility.

Compatibility and MP will be looked in later steps.

[weaponsfree 46]

The video shows some very interesting AI behaviour. Some nice wall hugging, and less of what I can only describe as Vanilla AI's "burst out of cover in a wide running circle".

Any idea what kind of CPU hit the game will take now that you more advanced into development?

Cheers!

[scifer 10]

How did you set houses on fire like in you youtube video?

[Voyage 34 10]

Delta and compact column formation are pretty buggy at the moment and close to useless, i agree.

I think we need a proper BIS fix for that.

Some time ago I tought about opening a ticket for that but I never done it. Can you please tell me what you think about these ideas? (they're not written in a ticket form)

I think the main point for that could be:

-subordinates AI in delta and column never take cover, but just follow the expected position in formation (just like a cat follows the mouse), sometimes watching random directions. In this sense staggered col. works a lot better.

About that I'm not sure:

since subs in delta and column are supposed to stay close to the leader and follow him pretty quickly, going prone is a real obstacle: sometimes all the squad goes prone after a few sec, and since the movement is leader moves, 2 moves, then 3, then 4, etc, by the time each soldier have waited for the previous to stand up, when the last one arrives the war could be over.

Plus goind prone in urban ambient is unrealistic for many reasons that in the game are not calculated (worse peripheral vision, worse turning speed, etc). So, IMO a squad should not go prone, but act more like (for ex.) in close combat: first to fight:

or at least go prone not so often, maybe after some longer time standing (and obviously when under fire).

Finally, combined with the "follow the position" bad behaviour sometimes really gives you the feeling you are commanding a squad of worms.

Sorry for being so long, and thanks for your replies.

Edited March 25, 2011 by Voyage 34

[TOTAL22 0]

Yes! you are back fabrizio!

I'm feeling so great to see this in progress. :)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Some time ago I tought about opening a ticket for that but I never done it. Can you please tell me what you think about these ideas? (they're not written in a ticket form)

I think the main point for that could be:

-subordinates AI in delta and column never take cover, but just follow the expected position in formation (just like a cat follows the mouse), sometimes watching random directions. In this sense staggered col. works a lot better.

About that I'm not sure:

since subs in delta and column are supposed to stay close to the leader and follow him pretty quickly, going prone is a real obstacle: sometimes all the squad goes prone after a few sec, and since the movement is leader moves, 2 moves, then 3, then 4, etc, by the time each soldier have waited for the previous to stand up, when the last one arrives the war could be over.

Plus goind prone in urban ambient is unrealistic for many reasons that in the game are not calculated (worse peripheral vision, worse turning speed, etc). So, IMO a squad should not go prone, but act more like (for ex.) in close combat: first to fight:

or at least go prone not so often, maybe after some longer time standing (and obviously when under fire).

Finally, combined with the "follow the position" bad behaviour sometimes really gives you the feeling you are commanding a squad of worms.

Sorry for being so long, and thanks for your replies.

There are still issues with formation handling in combat mode in my opinion.

What i see is that units don't really follow the leader as intended.

Instead they follow the preceeding unit.

So when a unit slows down or goes prone the following units slow down as well and that leads to pretty dumb behaviour, especially where formation is DIAMOND or COMPACT COLUMN.

This is less noticeable with other formations, but a thing that you'll notice when there are a lot of cover position around is that an entire formation will stop and wait quite some time for a single unit to move into a particular position. That makes urban CQB quite slow. Also groups may be stuck when a single unit is stuck.

Now testing 1.59 to check out any AI improvements.

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

How did you set houses on fire like in you youtube video?

Properly positioned game logics inflamed with BIS_Effects_Burn

.

[Uziyahu--IDF 0]

Any projected release on a working beta? I've been waiting for this since the beginning, but lost track of it. I thought Zeus' was this and have been using that.

Also, will it be possible to switch-on this A.I. for certain units in a mission and not others? Personally, I would like for some OPFOR units to still run around like damn fools.

[Voyage 34 10]

What i see is that units don't really follow the leader as intended.

Instead they follow the preceeding unit.

---------- Post added at 01:04 PM ---------- Previous post was at 01:04 PM ----------

Right. While the movement order (1, 2, 3, ..) is ok in my opinion (i remember time ago, when - as soon as leader moved on - almost all the squad followed him immediatly in a rushy and disordered way), the problem is - as you said - that when they move, the position to reach should be relative to the leader instead to the preceeding unit.

Due to this now squads tend to remain back on the flanks and formation gets somehow "stretched" forward)

[fabrizio_t 58]

Any projected release on a working beta? I've been waiting for this since the beginning, but lost track of it. I thought Zeus' was this and have been using that.

Also, will it be possible to switch-on this A.I. for certain units in a mission and not others? Personally, I would like for some OPFOR units to still run around like damn fools.

You will be able to enable / disable FLEXAI at runtime on a per-unit base if needed.

I'm working on packaging a pre-alpha "showcase" containing a limited set of working "tactical" features. Thats' for SP and infantry vs. infantry only.

The following is (hopefully) adressed:

• shooting accuracy
  
• stance handling
  
• Suppression fire
  
• Firing & bounding
  
• grenade throwing in CQB
  

Regarding this set of features, the overall mechanics are done, yet raw.

Now the point is fine-tuning many parameters to find the "sweet spot" AI wise.

I'm iteratively running automated missions literally hundreds of times against vanillla.

Very time consuming.

---------- Post added at 10:10 AM ---------- Previous post was at 10:07 AM ----------

Right. While the movement order (1, 2, 3, ..) is ok in my opinion (i remember time ago, when - as soon as leader moved on - almost all the squad followed him immediatly in a rushy and disordered way), the problem is - as you said - that when they move, the position to reach should be relative to the leader instead to the preceeding unit.

Due to this now squads tend to remain back on the flanks and formation gets somehow "stretched" forward)

Would you mind to post a ticket on CIT?

I think it would be helpful for BIS devs.

Edited April 4, 2011 by fabrizioT

[Psilocybe 3]

Hey fab, that video you made a long time ago with the troops avoiding the fight, where they assessed and moved around, has your work continued with that at all, or moved away. Thanks.

[Voyage 34 10]

Would you mind to post a ticket on CIT?

I think it would be helpful for BIS devs.

Sure, I'll do it as soon as I have some time.

I'm also thinking that - due to squad leader often moving again before all units have moved on into the new formation position - there could be the problem of ''lateral'' units forced to cover a 2x distance to catch up with the newer formation.

Btw I noticed from recent tests that a unit doesn't completely follow the preceeding everywhere, but only when moving forward. If the preceeding unit strafes left/right, or moves back, the current unit stays where it is.

Just some ideas, nothing important.

[fabrizio_t 58]

Found a severe issue with latest BETA:

http://dev-heaven.net/issues/19156

Please help by voting/supporting this ticket.

Thx.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

This was done on purpose to stop AI taking their sweet arse time when given a move order, the same as when given a "get in" order.

It's frustrating when you tell someone to go stand behind a bush but he takes 50 minutes to move 100 metres due to the fact that he takes a knee every 3 steps.

[fabrizio_t 58]

This was done on purpose to stop AI taking their sweet arse time when given a move order, the same as when given a "get in" order.

It's frustrating when you tell someone to go stand behind a bush but he takes 50 minutes to move 100 metres due to the fact that he takes a knee every 3 steps.

Hmm i think the problem is different here.

Actually units are slower than before. Did you run my repro?

Also this issue affects ArmA2 and ArmA2OA units in different ways ...

Edited April 25, 2011 by fabrizioT

[DeclaredEvol 10]

You should get this mod and the PVP Animations pack to work together, like for instance... get the AI to use some of those animations the player can use.