Lisbon Treaty II. Ireland votes Yes?!!?

[vilas 473]

i think those who gave production of everything to China should be mutilated instead of have own jets

economy situation is because here were grid people who gave production of good to China and now we cannot make even t-shirt and engineers like me must sit and do not technical job cause there is almost no production

i remember one customs situation when friend stopped contener of Chineese machines (no CE and bad quality) in price lower than price of engine for this machine but made outside China

we cannot accept slave-manufactors , but our rich pigs do it

i want buy Polish socks, Polish tshirt but it is impossible

one woman in 1998 in my block committed suicide because 2 years she couldn't find job after manufacture closed (production in China)

previously Poland had strong industry, now EU says ships industry to stop ? we have some terms to sell our ship-building companies, maaan it is sick, how Bruxels decide wheter we can sell buidling ship company to date A or to date B :/

it is our ship building company , not "their" , lots of people here IF THEY HAD KNOWN what happened after 1989, would be in 1981 against Solidarity, my uncle worked in the same ship-building company in Gdansk and he told that if he had such knowledge in 1980 like he has now, he would be riot-militia himself

we were told that capitalism is "everyone is rich" , noone told capitalism is homeless people, suicides because of economy, unemployment (we had 20% over), corruption, gangs on streets, drugs and violence etc.

EU do not regulate it

of course it is good that EU stops some things from China and i think we should go into some "self european production union" and block dumping prices , slave work and etc.

Edited October 6, 2009 by vilas

[[GLT] Legislator 66]

i wonder if there will be some serious tensions, cause many of us have enough of it all

let they kill rapist, paedophiles and not take care about of fat rich pigs

what is issurection ?

The german government tries to solve this with stop signs :rolleyes:

it is people's will to change wrong goverment which lies and hurts people

Hmmm we tried it a week ago and it didn't work :( It got even worse.

It's that simple ... the world is in the toilet. But who's gonna pull the flush?

[Herbal Influence 10]

i think those who gave production of everything to China should be mutilated instead of have own jets

economy situation is because here were grid people who gave production of good to China and now we cannot make even t-shirt and engineers like me must sit and do not technical job cause there is almost no production

i remember one customs situation when friend stopped contener of Chineese machines (no CE and bad quality) in price lower than price of engine for this machine but made outside China

we cannot accept slave-manufactors , but our rich pigs do it

i want buy Polish socks, Polish tshirt but it is impossible

one woman in 1998 in my block committed suicide because 2 years she couldn't find job after manufacture closed (production in China)

previously Poland had strong industry, now EU says ships industry to stop ? we have some terms to sell our ship-building companies, maaan it is sick, how Bruxels decide wheter we can sell buidling ship company

I understand your point and appreciate you posting it here in all clarity.

But people wouldn't pay the price for a t-shirt made in the EU, when it is so much cheaper to have one from China. And think about what happens if we would forbid to import cheap t-shirts - they would be smuggled into the EU like Afgahn heroin.

But isn't Bohemia Interactive a striking example of what can be done by former communist countries? This small company competes - and wins ! - against, just an example - against "Americas Army" which was financed broadly with millions of dollars by the US government?

And this is due to the many very intelligent and nicely educated people in Europe.

They don't study fast and only for industrial interests - at last german informatic students *have* to do something else also, not just informatics. They *have to* chose other subjects too, like Philosophy, History, Sociology.

This way they aren't as easy to make simply functioning for industry.

They learn to think in a broader sense, not just to sell something as specialist, but to have ideas.

(One result is that Linux is broadly appreciated - it's open and open minded.)

If you compare patent statistics the EU is genious!

But you have to cut software patents and other perverse patents from it!

If you compare export numbers - the EU is genious!

But you have to cut off the licensing fees to Microsoft.

Sure we also need jobs for less genius people. That's true.

And it's really bitter for many people what's going on.

Just take a look at the serial suicides in that big french enterprise ... 19 suicides within a few months - apparently because of rigid measurements to be more profitable.

As far as I know the LT doesn't make better what made me not voting (last months?) for anyone being member of EU parliament: The EU parliament in it's actual and - as far as I know - future design isn't allowed to bring in own laws/statutes ... they can only object to those brought into discussion by the commission.

That's a fake parliament.

I don't vote fake parliament members.

But I feel a common sense in here and that makes this thread as nice to read as many others on this forum: People have a sense of justice. And we have quite a common sense of justice. Everyone of us.

Does the LT reflect our sense of justice?

I found only one small piece in there:

"For the first time, one million citizens from different Member States will also be able to directly request that the Commission brings forward an initiative of interest to them in an area of EU competence."

Even if we gather a million EU people for such an initiative: We are only allowed to bid the EU Commission to deal with it.

They are so afraid of the normal EU citizen!

They are even afraid of their own fake parliament!

But nevertheless, I would vote for it for it strengthens the European Idea which I honestly like. I like to be a European. And that's not because being german was quite difficult because of the many stupid and murderous things Germany did within the last century (WWI, WWII, Holocaust). I like Germany, I like to be german nevertheless, but I also dearly appreciate to be european. I love Europe - it's my homecountry.

If only they would have more trust in their own people.

The LT is so poooooor.

But it's better than no movement in that good "direction" I appreciate.

So my point is: Let us finally vote a real EU parliament!

Let us kick parliament members for listening only to giant enterprises like Microsoft etc. who pay a lot to have their interests - like patents on software which I find perverse.

Let us then kick parliament members who do nothing but waiting for the immense monthly payments they get plus the money they get as lobbyists from industry, even industry from competing countries like the US and Asia.

Let us then kick parliament members who allow risky financial products from US banks that are that dangerous that it is not even allowed to sell them in the US itself! (www.spiegel.de reported lately this has happened routinely).

And I think we cannot go back to yesterday.

To only national politics.

That's just a nice romantical thought.:o

Nations are too small not to be bought by the US, by China, Rich-Oil-Countries, Microsoft, Buffett, Abrahamovic (?) and some other people.

Former US-Foreign-Minister Kissinger said: "EU ? Does it has a telephone number?" to express that the EU still has no weight, no power when it comes to terms.

Therefore the poooooooor LT is a little performance optimization.

We cannot ask BI to optimize code there, but I think we all want better fraps in the EU urgently. :)

But we shall never forget that freedom and responsibilty given to people is a risk also.

Take a look at the mess you find on public servers for AA2 the last months ... ;-)

Sorry for posting that long a text ... but since the DR-thread was closed (due to good reasoning) .. ;-)

Edited October 6, 2009 by Herbal Influence
corrected spelling .. .

[-Snafu- 77]

trickster1982 said:

 

[derk yall 0]

We already have "vote justice" at the Eurovision Song Contest. Every country has an equal vote. It sucks, you get block voting. The same would happen with "vote justice" in the EU. (Relatively) poor countries bunching up to vote to allot themselves huge sums of money while paying for only a fraction of the EUs total budget. That's not how it works, or how it should work. Especially not with the known problems with corruption in many Eastern European countries.

Pay more money, and you get more influence. Perfectly simple that the largest countries are also the most powerful ones, since they can afford to pay for their position in the EU (many inhabitants + modern economy = a lot of income through taxes). What you're suggesting is like a person buying a single share and demanding to have as much of a say as an investment group that has a million shares. That's not how economy works (or democracy for that matter).

As for the military part, I feel any organization that is under the direct influence of a major non-European power (UN Security Council with Russia, China and to some extent the US) is useless in situations where it actually matters (where actual action is required rather than endless talk and sabotage). Still, I don't see much coming from all of this. A few weeks ago at an airport in the Netherlands, 1 of 3 C-117 aircraft landed which were purchased by no less than 12 European countries combined (would have been far too much of a burden to purchase for any single country). Oh yes, and the US also ordered another 190 on top of the vast arsenal it already has. Any European military action needs the support of the US unfortunately. We can't afford things that the US can (of course their deficit is huge), partially because the US is a single entity, while the European countries all have separate armies that all need to have the same capabilities to use for the protection of their own country. If Europe was to ever come up with a single defense policy for all member states and a centralized command, they could save so much money and still have so much more capability.

I think that I havent enough described my statement. I am not saying anything about distributing of money. There is difference in it you see. Example:

there are people in a country, one live in big cities, others in small village, but thanks to the democracy, theyre vote are equal so the can bote happily decide what will be with theyr country. But, even if they vote rights are equal, people in village get less of money, because the do not need so much. This same can be aplied to the EU.

Also there is a difference betwen the system, where each state have the same number of representative and a TV public SMS voting system :j:

And i gratulate you for deproving of everything about the democracy we were told in schools. It shows that the democratic ideology is the same utopia like the communistic idea.:)

about economy, we there are very, very happy of the capitalistic economy system wich destroyed our economy, also destroyed and harmed the economy in Europe, America and wich is undemocratic and use the poornes of people to produce theyr goods. But that's to much OT.

sarcasm

Talk me about coruptions in eastern (corectly it's central and eastern europe) when we see big corruptions in the "almighty" west? /sarcasm

[vilas 473]

Talk me about coruptions in eastern (corectly it's central and eastern europe) when we see big corruptions in the "almighty" west?Talk me about coruptions in eastern (corectly it's central and eastern europe) when we see big corruptions in the "almighty" west?

i don't understand it in english , sorry

but there are different levels of corruption

it is other level when minister sells national company, factory, warehouses and ground for price lower than ground's value to company which wants to close this factory (manufacturer) to avoid competition

and it is other level when policeman takes 50 E, because he earns 400E to close eyes on who caused accident and you have troubles in court cause by police decision you made accident, not guy who made it and gave 50E to policeman

or 250 E (1000 PLN) to judge

and it is other level of reaction on corruption, when in western country judge goes to prison when journalist had secret tape record about corruption

and other when in for example PL, journalists recorded corruption and:

- judge has "immunity" and is not touchable

- secret recording is thrown away "because this person was not informed that he is recorded and it is against this person citizens rights and privacy"

[derk yall 0]

Vilas, I know that the coruption are there exactly the same as you described. Even same laws against these tapes and immunity also. I only wanted to indicate, that we have problems with it, but the west have also problems with it. The recent affairs in britain or the bankers in USA show that it is not perfect anywhere. I wrote that, because I am tired of the endless reading of post by foreigners, how things are bad there. They are bad, I agree on that, corruption is a problem there, but it's mostly the people in power that are. But the way foreigners wrote about it, it seems, like they pointing that we all are corrupted and only money wanting.

[Herbal Influence 10]

Though a bit offtopic ... corruption is a big thread if not the biggest to demoracy.

It needs people to be aware of it all it's forms.

http://www.transparency.org/

[vilas 473]

...........

western people are not understand us, i know

it is because they have other level

imagine "loving" family and "alcoholic"

in loving family : o my god, during argue father slightly hit her wife

in alcoholic: father is in good mood, this week he not raped daughter and beaten to blood wife only twice

for them (westernians) it is crisis "o my good i have to buy car in next year"

for us it is "fuck , what i can eat"

they don't understand choice "legal soft or food" they say about "freedom of speech, freedom of travel" why the hell i need freedom of travel when i don't have money for train ?

they don't understand us , cause their "poor" is for us "luxury"

colour TV , ohhh i had in 1997 in home

computer ? i was 24 years old, it was bought for 2 years credit in bank to finish my MSC degree diploma

shoes ? i buy every 1-2 years, they buy every 2 weeks

EOS digital camera ? i bought after year of saving money and because of our shops - electronics here is 15% more expensive than for them

the same EOS 450D cost westernian for example "500 EU" and me "570" in shop, which is his 0.33 monthly money and for me 1.2 monthly money

ADSL 2 MB internet connection in telecomunication costs here 78 zł ca. 18 Euro

those bankers who took 500 000 000 usd and caused this "crysis" should be... you know what

they don't understand and they will never understand what is looking in eyes of burglar who stole your home and is now free cause judge get money

they don't understand our hate and frustration (heh, what causes me to listen do death metal only)

Edited October 6, 2009 by vilas

[Monkwarrior 0]

Different opinions and cultures are something to cherish.

These differences between people tend to suffer if the EU gets more power.

Hence my NO vote.

Problem is that we in Holland got s****ed by our politicians.

They robbed us of our vote deciding they knew what's best for us .....

And still they wonder why a vast majority of our population doesn't trust a politician ;)

Monk.

[trickster1982 10]

Different opinions and cultures are something to cherish.

These differences between people tend to suffer if the EU gets more power.

Hence my NO vote.

Problem is that we in Holland got s****ed by our politicians.

They robbed us of our vote deciding they knew what's best for us .....

And still they wonder why a vast majority of our population doesn't trust a politician ;)

Monk.

Same here dude, we were forced into it by condescending politicians who didnt believe the public were either intelligent enough or deserved a democratic vote on their own destiny. I've been to your country & several others around Europe, I like the people & respect how we are all different culturally & economically so my opposition to the EU is not xenophobic, I just dont believe in empire building (that also includes the old British empire) & bullying smaller nations into towing the line

[Baff1 0]

Do I smell a hint of nationalism? Anyway, would you mind explaining why fighting for the US or the Russians is better than for the EU? I don't really follow your reasoning. Oh wait... there wasn't any.

That sounds like so much anti-EU propaganda to me, and it's contradictory to top it off. On the one hand you talk about "the status quo that has kept the peace in Europe for the last 60 years", as if the member states should normally all be at each others throats. And then you turn it around and state the EU is basically about creating a new supranational incarnation of the third reich.

You do realize that the EU is still governed by representatives of the member states, right? There is no distant and mystical government trying to abolish our national identities and merge us all into a European superstate. In order for that to happen, the member states would have to be willing to do that. Somehow, I don't see that happening. Makes for a great propaganda story though. OMG we're gonna be ruled by a faceless European regime and MILLIONS will DIE! Quick, abolish the EU before it's too late!

Again, a defty whiff of nationalism. Perhaps I don't visit my home country often enough, but somehow I've never picked up on these strong anti-European sentiments "the British people" seem to have. Or maybe you just don't speak for the British people.

I speak for myself.

If you wish to get a better idea of current British public opinion than just my one voice, I suggest you consult the opinion polls of which there are many.

I believe I have accurately represented their findings.

I cannot imagine why you would think an EU military alliance would be of particular intrest to the UK. What does the EU have to offer us?

I understand why they want us, but it isn't a reciprocal feeling for the most part.

There are some excellent military allies within the EU, but they are small forces only and without the same shared national intrests as our other allies.

I won't name the names of those we honour and those we do not.

Our national intrests stretch far beyond the borders of the EU and far beyond the military capabilites of the other EU members to intervene.

It is useful to us to ally with them within their sphere of influence and useful for us to ally with others in other areas.

Since America has a far greater area of influence than any EU member or indeed all EU members combined, both within and outside Europe, it is clearly a superior ally. We also have strong history of military co-operation with them. A cultural bond.

Further to this America, amongst other countries, has the political will and capability to act. A unity the EU is unable to muster.

I would rather ally with Canada alone than the entire EU combined.

As I said, it's not that we don't wish for military alliance with the EU, it's just that it is not a giant priority for us.

In fact quite alot of the EU members we actively don't want military alliance with.

One of the lessons of two world wars is that too many alliances can lead to a domino effect and propel us into wars that are not in our national intrest.

To elucidate my opinion further, the poster before me claimed that the peace in Europe for the last 60 years was because of the EU.

I did not claim this, I refuted it.

I consider it to be of historical record that the peace in Europe for the last 60 years was achieved by force.

I consider it of historical record too that every single attempt to bring Europe under the dominion of a single flag in the history of mankind has resulted in massive wars thus far.

I do not believe that human nature has fundamentally changed in the last 60 years.

I do not for one minute believe it is the natural state of alternative cultures living in close proximity to exist in a state of protracted peace indefinitely. Once again I believe that history demonstrates the error of that opinion. The idea is simply crass stupidity to my mind.

Willful ignorance of history.

There is no distant and mystical government trying to abolish our national identities and merge us all into a European superstate.

I believe this to be untrue.

If you were to dismiss other peoples concerns about EU integration as the over imaginations and boogeymen of uneducated people alone, you would be demonstrating the same very clear contempt for the intelligence and wishes of your fellow man that the EU and UK parliament does.

It is this inability to take other peoples heartfelt concerns and wishes seriously that drives the world to violence.

If putting words like "The Third Reich" into my mouth allows you to dismiss my concerns out of hand, you go right ahead because when push comes to shove, those aren't my words and words alone aren't the only tools at my disposal to maintain my freedom from your political aspirations.

You don't have to agree with these sentiments yourself but if you are unwilling to respect that they are held by many others, you are not a person that can be dealt with by rational discourse alone.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Baff1

[ProfTournesol 956]

One of the lessons of two world wars is that too many alliances can lead to a domino effect and propel us into wars that are not in our national intrest.

(1) Do you honestly think that you could have stayed away from both world wars ?

(2) Domino effect is however true, we've recently seen this in the Irakian tragedy.

To elucidate my opinion further, the poster before me claimed that the peace in Europe for the last 60 years was because of the EU.

I did not claim this, I refuted it.

I consider it to be of historical record that the peace in Europe for the last 60 years was achieved by force.

I consider it of historical record too that every single attempt to bring Europe under the rule of a single flag in the history of mankind has resulted in massive wars thus far.

I do not believe that human nature has fundamentally changed in the last 60 years.

Yes, that was me, and it is very obvious that building the EU and economical and somehow cultural links between our countries was the best way to avoid war between us. Was it nice when France and GB fought against each other for centuries ? Was it nice when France and Germany (including others of course) fought against each other three times in less than 30 years (1870, 1914 and 1939) ?

But anyway i think that Europe cannot be built without European peoples' will. EU is such an easy scapegoat of economical and social troubles, but vicerally eurosceptic countries should be able to withdraw from it.

[Baff1 0]

I not only think it was not possible for us to avoid those wars, I think it will not be possible for us to avoid the next one.

We didn't "enjoy" war with France.

We don't enjoy war.

No amount of "cultural or trade links" has prevented war between us in the past.

The best way for us to maintain peace in Europe is to keep our tanks there.

It's worked for the last 60 years.

For us the problem is that the EU isn't what we joined. It has become something else.

We joined the EEC, a free trade area within Europe of our closest partners.

It has already gone way beyond it's mandate and is attempting to go further.

It's not what we signed up for.

Equally I might say and with just as much validity, if you want the EU to become something new, just start something new.

Why not just give everyone in Europe a vote and if those that want closer political union, can have it?

I suspect because countries like yours (didn't the french all vote "non"?) don't want political union with just Belgium, Latvia and Ireland at all. They want it with countries that have something more to offer them. Countries like mine and Germany.

By your own preference, given that the French people voted no, shouldn't you have all left the EU yourselves?

Do you agree with many of the other posters in this thread that the reason France didn't is because politicians typically refuse to represent the democratic intrests of their people above their own personal agendas?

Edited October 6, 2009 by Baff1

[maddogx 13]

You don't have to agree with these sentiments yourself but if you are unwilling to respect that they are held by many others, you are not a person that can be dealt with by rational discourse alone.

To sum it up: I don't agree with you, therefore I must be totally irrational. Ad hominem much? :rolleyes:

Let me put it this way: I, as a Brit, am offended by your use of the words "we" and "us" to encompass the entirety of Britain into what I percieve to be a very right-wing point of view.

Other than that, I think you are wrong on several points. Mainly:

... every single attempt to bring Europe under the dominion of a single flag in the history of mankind has resulted in massive wars thus far.

You mean like when the Romans concquered most of Europe? Or when the Nazis tried to do the same? The key word here is "dominion", I think. How exactly does a union of nations compare to an empire trying to dominate the entire continent? You're essentially equating "conquest" with "cooperation". Makes no sense to me.

If you were to dismiss other peoples concerns about EU integration as the over imaginations and boogeymen of uneducated people alone, you would be demonstrating the same very clear contempt for the intelligence and wishes of your fellow man that the EU and UK parliament does.

Wow. I guess I can tick "straw man" off the fallacy list. Again: The EU is governed by representatives of member states - read Europeans. That's pretty much all I was saying.

It is this inability to take other peoples heartfelt concerns and wishes seriously that drives the world to violence.

If putting words like "The Third Reich" into my mouth allows you to dismiss my concerns out of hand, you go right ahead because when push comes to shove, those aren't my words and words alone aren't the only tools at my disposal to maintain my freedom from your political aspirations.

Okay, so you didn't use the words "Third Reich", but your description of what you thought the EU could become sounded pretty close. You even make it sound like I personally plan to conquer the UK and take away your freedom. May I politely inquire as to what the fuck you're getting at?

I think I'll leave it at that.

[Baff1 0]

To sum it up: I don't agree with you, therefore I must be totally irrational. Ad hominem much? :rolleyes:

Let me put it this way: I, as a Brit, am offended by your use of the words "we" and "us" to encompass the entirety of Britain into what I percieve to be a very right-wing point of view.

Other than that, I think you are wrong on several points. Mainly:

You mean like when the Romans concquered most of Europe? Or when the Nazis tried to do the same? The key word here is "dominion", I think. How exactly does a union of nations compare to an empire trying to dominate the entire continent? You're essentially equating "conquest" with "cooperation". Makes no sense to me.

Wow. I guess I can tick "straw man" off the fallacy list. Again: The EU is governed by representatives of member states - read Europeans. That's pretty much all I was saying.

Okay, so you didn't use the words "Third Reich", but your description of what you thought the EU could become sounded pretty close. You even make it sound like I personally plan to conquer the UK and take away your freedom. May I politely inquire as to what the fuck you're getting at?

I think I'll leave it at that.

The majority of Brits don't want it. You, a british citizen may want it, but the British people do not.

Your views are neither representative of the majority of Brits posting in this thread, nor the majority of those living in this country.

I would however feel it is correct to say that there is a very significant minority who agree in part with your views. Polls suggest 30% of Brits do not want to leave the EU. (Although perhaps only about 10% are in favour of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum).

That you take offence so easily is quite frankly not worthy of any apology.

I chose my words very carefully. Dominion.

Not every member of the Roman Empire was conquered. Most joined peacefully.

Those that refused were conquered!

And yes mate if you wish to politely ask me what I am getting it, you may.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Baff1

[trickster1982 10]

I chose my words very carefully. Dominion.

Not every member of the Roman Empire was conquered. Most joined peacefully.

Those that refused were conquered!

As were things in the Third Reich, there was quite a large portion of Europe & beyond who collaborated with the Nazis & agreed with Hitlers plans for a united Europe, & didnt mind their own country surrendering to a single European government which is essentially what the third reich was.

[maddogx 13]

The majority of Brits don't want it. You, a british citizen may want it, but the British people do not.

Your views are neither representative of the majority of Brits posting in this thread, nor the majority of those living in this country.

I never said my views were representative. In fact, a single view is never representative, which is the point I was trying to make. As far as apologies go, I neither asked for nor expected one. The way you present your point of view is enough to tell me that I should expect no kind of concession from you.

I would however feel it is correct to say that there is a very significant minority who agree in part with your views. Polls suggest 30% of Brits do not want to leave the EU. (Although perhaps only about 10% are in favour of ratifying the Lisbon Treaty without a referendum).

I don't believe I've elaborated on my views. We've been talking about yours.

I chose my words very carefully. Dominion.

Not every member of the Roman Empire was conquered. Most joined peacefully.

Those that refused were conquered!

I can see where this is going, but I won't bite (again).

And yes mate if you wish to politely ask me what I am getting it, you may.

Thanks, but I think I'll pass. And I'm not your mate, friend.

[Baff1 0]

No mate, you are just an angry troll.

As were things in the Third Reich, there was quite a large portion of Europe & beyond who collaborated with the Nazis & agreed with Hitlers plans for a united Europe, & didnt mind their own country surrendering to a single European government which is essentially what the third reich was.

While I agree in principle, The Third Reich has rather inflammatory connatations. It's not a comparison I would choose by preference.

Really I'm not old enough to wish to keep beating the Germans with the history stick. That wasn't my war and none of my German friends were alive at that time either.

I think the same comparisons are equally true about Napolean and Caesar etc. and less likely to derail the topic or fall foul of the "you are a racist/nationalist/xenophobic/bigot/fanatic" trap.

I do however believe the 20th century history of Europe to be a contribuatory factor in peoples thinking.

I don't feel it's lost on British people that millions of people have died to prevent a unified European state.

In living memory. In fact the very concept of it is to some extent distasteful given those events.

I think it's pretty obvious the Czechs do too.

Maddog described voting on the Lisbon treaty as a mainly right wing agenda, I think the right wing in Britain have made it pretty clear this week that there will be no vote under their rule either.

To my mind until they do no government holds mandate to negotiate the matter on our behalf.

Words would fail me if the made Blair EU president! Rofllmao. I think if that ever happened someone would have to publicly shoot him.

Edited October 6, 2009 by Baff1

[trickster1982 10]

While I agree in principle, The Third Reich has rather inflammatory connatations. It's not a comparison I would choose by preference.

Really I'm not old enough to wish to keep beating the Germans with the history stick. That wasn't my war.

I think the same comparisons are equally true about Napolean and Caesar etc. and less likely to derail the topic or fall foul of the "you are a racist/nationalist/xenophobic/bigot/fanatic" trap.

Yeah, when I said that I didnt mean that all the people who collaborated with the Nazi's were actually Nazis themselves, but they did tow the line with Hitlers plans to unite Europe under one regime, just as the former soviet block did when Russia was in its prime after the war

Collaboration ranged from urging the civilian population to remain calm and accept foreign occupation without conflict, organizing trade, production, financial and economic support to joining various branches of the armed forces of Axis powers or special "national" military units fighting under their command.

[vilas 473]

people in many countries want right to say yes or no

while we have no right, politicians, president signs treaty, not people !!!!!!!!!!

liberals choosen by 20% of people afraid to be voted no

[trickster1982 10]

Words would fail me if the made Blair EU president! Rofllmao. I think if that ever happened someone would have to publicly shoot him.

I quite agree! Im not sure why he seems to be Europes golden boy tipped for the top when he's already proved in British politics that he's a smarmy lying power mad git, who makes promises he has no intention of keeping & refuses to listen to what the electorate want, then clears off & leaves his mess for someone else to sort out when he's had enough. If he didnt let the people of Britain have a say on joining Europe then what makes the people of Europe think he's going to let them have a say on how the EU is run? Surely even the most dedicated pro-european cant be stupid enough to want that man in charge? :eek:

[ProfTournesol 956]

I think the same comparisons are equally true about Napolean and Caesar etc. and less likely to derail the topic or fall foul of the "you are a racist/nationalist/xenophobic/bigot/fanatic" trap.

Agreed. Such ridiculous comparison with Hitlerian regim should be avoided to keep this topic at an acceptable level of discussion.

[trickster1982 10]

Agreed. Such ridiculous comparison with Hitlerian regim should be avoided to keep this topic at an acceptable level of discussion.

Dont worry I wasnt trying to bait with my comparison, though im sure others would treat it that way. Im too old for pointless flaming of forums, but I do have my opinions & I will stick to them even if they put your blood pressure up

[ProfTournesol 956]

Dont worry I wasnt trying to bait with my comparison, though im sure others would treat it that way. Im too old for pointless flaming of forums, but I do have my opinions & I will stick to them even if they put your blood pressure up

I haven't got any trouble with your opinions, i don't share them but that makes this discussion interesting. And as i may be older than you (if 1982 is your birth date, if not a remembrance of Malvinas war), i'm avoiding any flaming too, because of my "blood pressure" :rolleyes: