“liberation 1941-1945�

[petrtlach 1375]

Ingeneer :

Quite unrealistic details: Kar98k is the pre-war production figures. German uniforms do not meet during 1943-1945, the color images is gray German uniforms were never literally gray, in 1943, the period was slightly more greenish and high boots were marching from 1940, replacing his boots and spine. Shoulder was never the WH black, but green-blue, in addition, in 1939 replaced the shoulder blouse in color, so long could be seen in this color in 1941.

Edited August 1, 2010 by petrtlach

[Sky999 10]

Ingeneer :

Quite unrealistic details: Kar98k is the pre-war production figures. German uniforms do not meet during 1943-1945, the color images is gray German uniforms were never literally gray, in 1943, the period was slightly more greenish and high boots were marching from 1940, replacing his boots and spine. Shoulder was never the WH black, but green-blue, in addition, in 1939 replaced the shoulder blouse in color, so long could be seen in this color in 1941.

Shhhhh, we don't want them to have to start over. FPDR

[KidDynamite 0]

Yes. All info (exept structure scheme - we already have it and camo schemes) for 1-30 august 1944.

Maps, personalities, description of battles.

Here is a Map from the 19th August 1944. At the Top of the map you find the 4. Panzerarmee, and south from this point you find the 16. PD, in the middle of 4. and 17. Armee.

http://www.gutenberg-e.org/esk01/maps/LageOst19Aug44a_lg.jpg

Panzerregiment 2:

Die II. Abteilung ohne 8. Kompanie und von der I. Abteilung die 1. und 4. Kompanie werden als Personaleinheiten Anfang August 1944 in den Raum südlich Krakau verlegt. Es heißt, dass diese Teile des Regiments aufgefrischt und sogar dazu eventuell ins Reich verlegt werden sollen. Aber die Entwicklung nimmt andere Wege und schließlich ist damit die II. Abteilung aus dem Regiment ausgeschieden und kehrt bis Kriegsende nicht mehr zurück. Über ihr weiteres Schicksal wird in einem späteren Kapitel berichtet. Der Feind hatte inzwischen die Weichsel überschritten und einen größeren Brückenkopf westlich Baranow gebildet. Dieser Brückenkopf soll durch einen Angriff am 8. August 1944 beseitigt werden. Die Division verlegt hierzu nach Michow und das Regiment zieht in Wodzislaw, etwa 80 km nördlich Krakau, unter. Der Angriff wird über Pinczow – Chmielnik - Szydlow vorgetragen und sollte über Staczow die Weichsel erreichen. Zu diesem Angriff wird der Division eine Königstiger-Abteilung unter Major von Legat, dem Regiment kein Unbekannter, unterstellt. Trotz zahlreicher Minensperren kommt der Angriff zunächst gut voran, bleibt aber ostwärts Szydlow in einem starken Pakriegel liegen. Der Einsatz der Königstiger ist ein Misserfolg, da sich bei diesen schwere technische Mängel einstellen. Die wenigen Wagen aber, die am Feinde sind richten mit den Panzern des Regiments beim Russen erhebliche Verwirrung an. Zunächst wird hier die Front trotz zahlreicher feindlicher Angriffe gehalten, später die Division herausgelöst und in einem anderen Abschnitt am Brückenkopf eingesetzt. Im Zuge dieser Unternehmungen gelangen die Panzer des Regiments nach mehrmaligem Umziehen Mitte Oktober in den Raum Kielce und beziehen in Orlowiny Stellung, etwa 20 km südöstlich von Kielce. Zu dieser Zeit werden die Panzer von der I. Abteilung geführt, da der Regimentsstab zu einem Sonderunternehmen mit der Personaleinheit der II. Abteilung, von der noch berichtet wird, herausgezogen ist. Der Regimentsstab kehrt erst Ende September 1944 dorthin zurück.

Edited August 1, 2010 by KidDynamite

[FKPLACE 10]

The uniform color and high boots are okay. Although regular german infantry changed some in greenish jacket and shoes, such things were still used till the end of war. We could see high boots in historical photos of 1944 and even 1945 . Of course, they could make some new variation with shoes. But dont think the boots should be totally removed in game. In addition, most officers still took high boots all time.

The color of shoulder board should be changed. Seems that's for Waffen SS.

Edited August 2, 2010 by FKPLACE

[Nephris1 10]

@KidDynamite

Could you plz post the source aswell for your quote?

I checked yesterday the war diary of OKW (High Command of Wehrmacht), but i wasnt successful up to now...but well the diary goes on for around 450 pages from August44 to our bitter end.So perhabs i ll find sth. more.

Boot size,colour variation of uniforms or button forms and srew size, dont bother me too much. Means i want to play the mod online and am not that fanatic in absolute correctness of each unit.

As there are also a few points to take into account like "colour correction" modules ingame, varieties in uniforms due a mix of different soldiers from different divisions,group or regiments.E.g. in 44 already Luftwaffe Field units got transfered to the front wearing their uniforms etc.

However,I guess if ya would start rechecking each screw, or colour etc for absolute historical correctness, not any mod would come to an end, as there are always different sources and different meanings.

I think there are things with much more priority for a mod.

I am sure you are doin´ a great job, and me looking forward to the demo!

[Ingeneer 10]

Ingeneer :

Quite unrealistic details: Kar98k is the pre-war production figures. German uniforms do not meet during 1943-1945, the color images is gray German uniforms were never literally gray, in 1943, the period was slightly more greenish and high boots were marching from 1940, replacing his boots and spine. Shoulder was never the WH black, but green-blue, in addition, in 1939 replaced the shoulder blouse in color, so long could be seen in this color in 1941.

Thank you for our opinion. Can you post also proofimages in order to understand everything right?

Edited August 3, 2010 by Ingeneer

[Nephris1 10]

Feldbluse by Elite Division "Großdeutschland"

Added Iron Cross II

Ribbon of the Frozen Meat Medal (Winter 1941)

Injury Medal in Gold (5/6 injuries)

Infantry Assault Medal

Feldbluse was created before 1944, noticeable on the straight pocket flaps.

Feldbluse M43 (prod. since 1943)

The colour may varie a bit between a "grey-green" to "green".

Main features:

- 4 pockets without stiched wrinkels, means the pocket flap was straight.

- corned buttons

- 6 buttons , to keep the form due to less material in the past war years.

- the reason for changing colours (from green to grey) was its miserable production and material condition.Just a little part was wool.The remainig material was made of synthetics and off the shredder.

Here is an image from the back

Additional examples of M43 here and here with EKII.

The upper image shows shoulder flaps in black, that were used imho by SS units only.

But on this image the pioneer uses black shoulder flaps, and he isnt in SS. Furthermore this image (made awhile the invasion of norway in 04/1940) also shows a Landser with black shoulder flaps, not being SS unit.

I guess the flaps are green-blue (early war years) and the image just makes it appear black.

More to shoulder flaps below.

This is the well designed "Feldmütze M43" in same elegant and fluffy style fitted to the jacket:

And to complete the dress the trouser M43

To be honest the difference from the colour didnt occur to me, since petrtlach mentioned it.

I saw several M43 pieces that were more grey than green, but well.

This,this or this picture is evt. a indication, why grey uniforms were suggested to be used (besides from movie myths).

Note:M39 to M44 were no official labels.Means noone in those times knew the uniform parts under that names.These labels were created by militaria collectors.

In 1944 the serie M44 was still produced, but just too late for the new series of M44 to change the appearance of the Wehrmacht anymore.

K98

The carbine problem is not that easy in my opinion.

As a lot of captured carbines were used and older ones were not destroyed, even if new ones were delivered.I read several diaries of german soldiers,that prefered the old K98 as long as they were not equipped with Stgw43.

However,the main carbine since 1941 was the K98/40 cal. 7.92mm.

The K98k was created with a lenght of 1250mm,gun barell was 600mm @3,9kg/4,2 kg (depending on the wood).v0 was 755m/sec;bajonet possible.

In 10/1941 the K98k got an update in Hungary,which was actually a rebuild of the hun. Model 35 (System Mannlicher).The main feature was the stock with mountable sealing cap and a lenght of 1110mm @4.1kg.The update was called K98/40 and used the same ammo as K98k and K98b with 7,92mm.

This is a list of german production numbers for Wehrmacht only (captured weapons not included):

source:Lexikon der WM

G24t: nearly same build than K98 but the gun barrel was 590mm long (K98k 600mm), from a manufacture in Böhmen-Mähren (Bohemia... ;-) )

G29:identically constructed as K98k but polish

G33/40: for Gebirgsjäger (elite mountain division); lenght 998 mm; gun barrel: 490mm

G40k: made by Mauser, shorten version of K98k with 110mm less; no serial production due less velocity @730m/s

K98ZF41-43: since Barbarossa produced;lenght 160mm or 220mm (zf43 @ 1,6kg); FOV 4x.

G41m:gun barrel 550; v0=745m/s;10rd/mag;no serial product.

G41w:by Walther;lenght 1138mm@4.7kg;g.b. = 550mm;serial prod, but troop disliked it.

G43:idol was Simonov & Tokarev;1120mm long@4.1kg;.magazine loaded from below @ 10rds/mag;empty mag 230gr;In 1944 the official label was Karabiner 43.Its last edition shortened the gun barrel from 550 to 500mm @ 3,6kg.

The sniper edition was used with ZF4 (scope).

Boots

A few original images for boot and uniform colour references

1,2,3,4,5,6,

Picture 4 is my favourite ....

Shoulder Flaps

The following links lead to some shoulder flaps for the troop.

Unteroffz. PanzerGren.

Infanterie Regiment 12

Early shoulder in blue green;Infantry

Infantry Reg 46; early blue green coloured

Infantry

Infantry

Infantry

Infantry

Cav. Regiment 3

Panzer

Panzer

Panzer

Panzer

Artillery

The following links lead to some shoulder flaps for officers

Hauptmann Infantrie

Major Infanterie

Major Artillerie

Leutnant Infanterie Infaterie Reg. 20

Leutnant Panzer

Leutnant Pioniere

Stabsarzt (medic officer)

diverse Infantrie

Leutnant Gebirgsjäger

As already mentioned above, and one of the initial point of discussion by petrtlach, the black shoulder flaps were used by SS only.If images show black appearing flaps at Wehrmacht soldiers, the flaps are supposed to be early ones blue-green coloured. But due to picture taking techniques or images age etc the colour seems to be black....imho.

Collar Mirror

The following links lead to collar mirror for the troop

Troop

Since 06/1940 the collar mirror was used consistent without any grey base layer

The following link lead to collar mirrors for officers

Infantrie

Infantrie since 1944 (!)

left Ari, middle Infanterie, right Support

Panzer

Brustadler

The following link leads to "Brustadler" (chest eagle)

Eagle 1

Eagle 2

Hope that helps a bit.

Although i am sure some of the informations are just useless for the mod, nevertheless it can explain a few nexuses perhabs (e.g. the K98 line).

If I could help ya with more "live" images pm me.

Edited August 3, 2010 by Nephris1

[Darkhorse 1-6 16]

Nephris, I believe we need to appoint you the official forum historian.

Is your area of expertise just WWII? If not I could use some help tracking down some pictures for PRACS. PM me if your interested.

[Ingeneer 10]

Nephris1, thank you a lot!

[topas 1]

@Nephris1

Excuse my ignorance, but just wanted to ask;

as the Feldmuetze you've shown is labeled M43; does it mean that the Germans didn't use fieldcaps with visor prior to 1943, only forage caps like this one?

[Ingeneer 10]

In big quantities M43 Feldmutze was present at Eastern Front since winter 1943-1944.

[topas 1]

I'm a bit surprised then.

Maybe they did not think of inventing something like this before they started to experience cold winters in Russia...

(Plus; maybe they didn't 'invent' it but rather 'borrowed'. Seems that the design is somewhat similar to this 1935 fieldcap - just with buttons and 'corners' cut. This may sound a bit far fetched; but again; Germans were known for adopting some foreign designs they found better than their own, like the VIS pistol, they manufactured under designation P35. Wonder what was the story behind the design)

[Ingeneer 10]

Mountain units has it (at the nord of Norway for expl.) with longer visor. But about common infantry... Really don't know.

[Nephris1 10]

I can absolute understand the confusion, as i ve also to reread again the parts for Wehrmacht uniforms and its norms, which were actually very strict compared to the problems the Reich actually had.

We have to difference several types of headgear in the Wehrmacht between 1933 - 1945.

In generell we got 5 different headgears in the Wehrmacht.

1. The helmet M35 was introduced in 1935 with a weight of 1000gr to 1200gr.Although i am sure i ve seen different helmets on several images and documentation, it seem to be the only one developed until 1945.Troop (camo) , Luftwaffe, new one

The M35 was a replacement of the M18/M16 steel helmets, which were around 200gr heavier and reached, depending to your neck, almost to the shoulders.Although it spend more protection, the helmet was changed.

But to be honest it looked shite compared to the M35.

2. The "Schutzmütze" (protecting cap/barret) was used by tank crews only.It was coloured black only.The production was stopped in 1941 already, although i ve got images at home from 1943 and 1944 that show the Schutzmütze for tank crews.

3. Schirmmütze;actually officers used it only, although it was planned for each rank.The officer cap got a silver drawstring, generals a golden one.

4. The "Schiffchen" (little ship), was introduced 1935 as "Feldmütze M35".Since 1938 it changed a few details and got called "Feldmütze M38".In 1942 it was changed to its finale state up to its end in 1943 and called "Feldmütze M42" (surprise, surpirse). The cap was used by all ranks.Officers used a silver drawstering on top around it.After the tank crews´ "Schmutzmütze" was stopped in 1941 ,the official cap was the black "Schiffchen".Its production seemed to stop in 1943.The "Schiffchen" was actually founded in Scotland , and been used further more in the "Reichswehr" and "Wehrmacht" since 1917/18.

5.The Feldmütze M43 was the consitent cap since 06/1943.The tank crew was using black ones again of course.I am not sure but i think that cap was already used since 1939 by the elite mountain troops "Gebirgsjäger",with an "Edelweiss" sign on side, but i ve to check that again.

Edited August 4, 2010 by Nephris1

[Florklin 10]

The germans used a cap with visor since the early 30s, and was based on caps worn by Austrian Mountain Troops in World War One. It was used by Gebirgsjaeger, Ski troops and so on, and later inspired both the tropical field cap and the general issue "M43" cap.

[Nephris1 10]

Well regarding the pistols, it is similar to the carbines.

The more countries the Wehrmacht occupied , the more differnent pistols were delivered to the troop and police.

The so called P vz.35 was actually a polish Radom one and produced to 10/1944, its actual replacement wasnt very beloved by the troop, and thus the P35 kept producing.I dont know the production number of P38, although this is the most famous german pistol used in each ww2 movie.

The P35, Pvz.24 and the Pistol 640b was imho the most produced one around 310 000 - 400 000 each.

Other countries like Austria, Spain and Norway delivered others, but the productions counts were below 100 000.

But I am not very familar with pistol history and development.

[Ingeneer 10]

I am not sure but i think that cap was already used since 1939 by the elite mountain troops "Gebirgsjäger",with an "Edelweiss" sign on side, but i ve to check that again.

It wasn't exactly the same as Feldmuetze 43. There's some little differances.

[topas 1]

Nephris, Florklin, thanks for very informative posts. This answers my questions completely ;)

[scars09 9]

the m43 is a redesign of the austrian bergmütze (mountain cap) first issued in 1868, redesigned 1871.

the cap was pretty popular in germany after WWI for civilian use, mountain movies were popular which made it a stylish headgear. Gebirgsjäger were equipped with these caps shortly before 2nd world war started, 1941 Africa Korps was equipped with the cap. 1943 it replaced the Schiffchen as standard headgear in the wehrmacht, thats why its called the m43. as far i know there were no redesign between 1939 and 1943, but there were surly differences in small details like material, buttons, colour and so on.

[belgerot 33]

An exerpt from wiki:

The design of the fieldcap was based on the German Gebirgsjäger's ski cap, the only differences being the bill was slightly extended and the top panel of the hat had a smaller circumference, giving it slightly sloped in sides

[KidDynamite 0]

@KidDynamite

Could you plz post the source aswell for your quote?

Sure: http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerregimenter/PR2-R.htm

We could see high boots in historical photos of 1944 and even 1945 . Of course, they could make some new variation with shoes. But dont think the boots should be totally removed in game. In addition, most officers still took high boots all time.

The color of shoulder board should be changed. Seems that's for Waffen SS.

Right. As you can see at this photos, both types of shoes were worn during the war between '43 and '45.

This Picture was made in July '43

and this in May '44

Edited August 5, 2010 by KidDynamite

[Ingeneer 10]

This Picture was made in July '43

And also note different types of feldmuetzen.

[FKPLACE 10]

Look at above pics, historical picutures show both high boots and shoes were used even in 1944, same cases as well in 1945 till the end of war. So current Liberation german stuff should be right but could add some variation of soliders in shoes if they could find more time on their Mod.

[dimitri_harkov 10]

Yeah, people often forget that most units were never equiped as they should be on paper (except in some ''Lehr' Divisions maybe), resulting in a wild mix of equipment.

Which reminds me: The most important German transport 'vehicle' was... the horse (and in many other armies too). Now that would be a nice addition! A harnessed horse team to tow artillery pieces would make for some very nice scenes in a 'desperate German retreat'-type scenario.

Something like this:

Very hard to do I guess, but still...

Keep it up!

D.

Edited August 6, 2010 by Dimitri_Harkov

[Sky999 10]

Yeah, people often forget that most units were never equiped as they should be on paper (except in some ''Lehr' Divisions maybe), resulting in a wild mix of equipment.

Which reminds me: The most important German transport 'vehicle' was... the horse (and in many other armies too). Now that would be a nice addition! A harnessed horse team to tow artillery pieces would make for some very nice scenes in a 'desperate German retreat'-type scenario.

Something like this:

Very hard to do I guess, but still...

Keep it up!

D.

Not as hard as you might think. There is already a horse mod out, and I see no reason why the maker would object to it's use in Lib.

Also attaching a cart probably isn't as difficult as you'd think. It's a lot easier than making the tanks the devs have. ;)