Really? A crosshair for a "realistic" sim?

[JSj 12]

Then why should people who like to jump over buildings be forced to play on the ground? We should demand that a superjump option be added!!

Seriously, I certainly don't care if other people use crosshairs or not, this thread is about whether or not a crosshair has any place in a realistic game at all.

We're just surprised that the developers decided to include such an obviously unrealistic feature in a realistic game like Arma 2, that's all. I'm not demanding that this feature should be removed, nor do I want force everyone to play with crosshairs off.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Johan S

[maddogx 13]

Then why should people who like to jump over buildings be forced to play on the ground? We should demand that a superjump option be added!!

Seriously, I certainly don't care if other people use crosshairs or not, this thread is about whether or not a crosshair has any place in a realistic game at all.

We're just surprised that the developers decided to include such an obviously unrealistic feature in a realistic game like Arma 2, that's all. I'm not demanding that this feature should be removed, nor do I want force everyone to play with crosshairs off.

If this thread isn't about wanting the crosshair option to be removed, why is it in the suggestions forum? If this were merely a discussion about whether or not crosshairs have merit in a simulator like Arma2, surely it would belong in the Arma2 general forum. But that obviously isn't the case. The OP clearly stated that he believes crosshairs should be removed completely, and that is in fact the topic here.

Anyway, this discussion seems to be going in circles. Just take a look at the first pages of this thread, then compare it to what has been said in the last few posts. Let me sum it up:

"Crosshairs are unrealistic and should be removed."

"Why? They are optional, so turn them off if you don't like them."

"But this is a realistic game so there shouldn't be any crosshairs."

"Well, they are here, so just live with it and turn them off."

"But why were they included at all? It's a realistic game, so they should be removed."

"Some people using like them, and they're optional. Just turn them off!"

"I do turn them off, but I still think they should be removed."

...

Look familiar? It's the same argument being regurgitated over and over and over again, ad nauseam. When will it stop?

[Master gamawa 0]

this thread is about whether or not a crosshair has any place in a realistic game at all.

So.. where do you draw the line really? How about being healed in five seconds after you ve been shot in the ass? There are hundreds of examples of unrealistic features that DO work and HAVE a place in this game.

The game is not realistic. It's MORE realistic than most of the games out there. My only gripe with the crosshair is that it is by default too accurate.

Some times you hardcore realism dudes are crazy! CRAZY!

[JSj 12]

Sure, if there is a way to improve the damage and healing system and make it more realistic, I'm all for it. Are there any games out there with a better, more realistic system?

But always having a crosshair on screen is a much bigger thing I think than to quickly be healed rather than needing a long recovery. That really couldn't be done, what should you do, deactivate the game for several months to simulate being in hospital recovering?

On the other hand, there are many games out there that are examples of the fact that a realistic game don't need a crosshair, like for instance WWII Online and Red Orchestra.

Edited December 15, 2009 by Johan S

[whisper 0]

What do you fail to understand in the word "OPTIONAL"?

[JSj 12]

What do you fail to understand in the word "OPTIONAL"?

Oh, so you're returning to point 2 on MadDogs list?

"Crosshairs are unrealistic and should be removed."

"Why? They are optional, so turn them off if you don't like them."

"But this is a realistic game so there shouldn't be any crosshairs."

"Well, they are here, so just live with it and turn them off."

"But why were they included at all? It's a realistic game, so they should be removed."

"Some people using like them, and they're optional. Just turn them off!"

"I do turn them off, but I still think they should be removed."

This really is just going in circles now, might as well move on to other topics.

[whisper 0]

Yes, I'm going back to it, because you keep pounding your "realistic game" motto, when this game is not about realism

You keep wanting to push YOUR point of view into other player's throats, and for no reason, because there's already a completely viable solution that suits everyone's taste. Not all people want to play this game the way you want it, they played it differently since 2001 and have every right to do so.

Edited December 15, 2009 by whisper

[An Fiach 10]

Because BIS wants to make money, that's why. Those other games., while great, do not have the option to move your arms independent of the rest of your body, center is always center.

[Master gamawa 0]

because you keep pounding your "realistic game" motto, when this game is not about realism

Thank you good sir!

Maybe we should put this in great capital neon letters!

Realism is just ONE of the fine aspects of this game. It's realistic in the regard that you don't carry a crowbar, dual pistols, shotgun, smg, assault rifle, sniper rifle, bazooka and all asorted ammo AT THE SAME TIME. It's realistic in the regard that you can't take five hundred bullets in the face and survive by 'eating' floating medkits. It's realistic because you get tired when you run and you don't bunnyhop around like a spaz.

That's not the most important thing though...

What makes this game great, is the adjustability. Freedom. Options. Mods. Replayability. Size. Freedom to use all vehicles, aircraft, armored vehicles, to play during the day, during the night, in a storm, in the desert, in the jungle... Options goddammit!

Like the option of allowing players to choose if they wanna play with crosshair or not, preferably without accusing BI that they did it for the money!

That's like having the most beautiful, smart, sexy and amazing woman ever and complaining because she had make-up on when you met her!

[boneboys 0]

The game becomes a little more realistic if you turn the cross-hairs off.

I play on normal without cross-hairs.

The only games I know without cross-hairs is Red Orchestra & Killing Floor. TWI do not allow cross-hairs in their games, which is fine by me, but it doesn't make the games anymore realistic because of that particularity.

They build the game with IS in mind, so it works very well.

This is not the case for BIS.

[Daniel 0]

A better overall suggestion would be:

Please give us the option to remove crosshairs without removing any other important indicators such as target locks. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

[whisper 0]

Daniel;1515843']A better overall suggestion would be:

Please give us the option to remove crosshairs without removing any other important indicators such as target locks. I don't think anyone can argue with that.

I made the suggestion a few pages back. Apparently' date=' this is not acceptable for the "realism" crowd.

The good suggestion would be to have more customizable crosshair configuration. Like having crosshair optional per simulation type. You could be able to switch crosshair on/off for "shot" type weapons, "missile" type weapons, "thrown" type weapons. And I think that would suit your need while not going against the game.

/end of OT

[paul1290 10]

I like the idea playing FPS games without crosshairs, but it doesn't feel as comfortable in ArmA as it should.

I think the way in which players aim weapons in ArmA needs to be improved significantly before removing crosshairs would make sense.

One thing that really bugs me is that the way which you see your weapon in first person when not looking through the sights isn't exactly ideal for working out where it is pointing. You don't really fire from the hip in ArmA, so you should have some reasonable degree of accuracy even if you aren't looking directly down the sights. Right now when you turn off crosshairs, you're either using ironsights or resorting to a lot of guessing, and there's not much in between. You could practice your way through it, but that seems like a brute force approach that shouldn't be as necessary to begin with (you could also learn to drive with left foot).

It would be more comfortable to aim without crosshairs if the weapon was closer to your eyes and closer to the center like in Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, but that would very annoying in ArmA if it was like that all the time since the weapon would obstruct a large portion of your view.

Come to think of it, we already have a focus/zoom that works whether you're looking down the sights or not. The way it is now it already helps you aim by narrowing your view, it would be nice to take it a step further. Perhaps instead of zooming in, holding the right mouse button without looking down the sights could bring the weapon closer to your eyes while keeping the weapon pointed at or close to the center of your view. It would not only make playing without crosshairs more comfortable and provide a bit of a compromise between eyeballing it and looking down the sights, but it would also makes sense as far as "realism" goes.

Edited December 15, 2009 by paul1290

[HyperU2 11]

To me the crosshair is one of the more realistic of the many unrealistic aspects of ARMA.

[nkenny 1051]

<snip>

It would be more comfortable to aim without crosshairs if the weapon was closer to your eyes and closer to the center like in Rainbow Six 3: Raven Shield, but that would very annoying in ArmA if it was like that all the time since the weapon would obstruct a large portion of your view.

<snip>

Good first post and welcome to the board. :)

Your reasoning is entirely accurate. The animations are actually quite off-center and rather unrealistic. Look at the animations from the third person, you will see that the rifle is shouldered way to far out to the right. Particularly noticable when equipped with a holosight. This also goes a long way in explaining why it appears that your weapon is 'hipped' in first person. (when it is absolutely not)

Also when entering Ironsights mode, your actual point of view shifts from your eyes and to a new 'camera' centered on ironsights. This centers the ironsights in your view; but isn't represented in the animations. Again producing an important disconnect between what you see and what is actually happening.

Reworking some of the 3rd/1st person animations would go a long way in making crosshair-less play more comfortable! As is I doubt BIS has neither the will nor the resources to rework animations for OA. So the effort will undoubtably have to come from the community. (if at all possible)

-k

[76 0]

Crosshairs, as well as 3rd person, is off by default (and is impossible to turn on) if you play on Expert difficulty. However most people seem to want to play COD with driveable tanks and airplanes so most servers are on the lowest (or 2nd lowest) difficulty, where those arcady realism-wrecking options are available.

Player VS player servers often turn off 3rd person, though, as it allows you to look around obstacles which is practically cheating, but often still allow crosshairs, again to appeal to the masses who prefer COD-style gaming.

Everything you've written here is dead on... which I personally don't have a problem with, in PvP I like crosshairs as I still get realism in regards of the weapons, units, sounds, terrain, single shot deaths, etc etc etc etc etc

And if I want to go full tactical... I can, there are servers to accommodate every flavour of ArmA :)

[galzohar 31]

there are servers to accommodate every flavour of ArmA :)

Unfortunately that is not true unless you're willing to play with very specific people on very specific times of day, and often even that is not enough - you'll actually have to go through their training (which may or may not have anything to do with either RL tactics or in-game tactics) and other kinds of BS that ruin the fun in the game without adding any actual realism.

Try to find a public server that runs a mission with no respawns (heck finding a passworded server with no respawns would be hard as well). If you thought that was hard, then try finding one that is actually populated when you actually have time to play.

I think if default difficulty for online play would've had unrealistic options turned off (and any server could still set whatever difficulty they want, but if they didn't bother to change it then default would apply) we'd be much better off. I think a lot of servers simply leave stuff on default rather than actually prefering those settings.

[enforcer1975 0]

If you don't want crosshairs just put some of this on it. :p

[MulleDK19 21]

This is why people play on EXPERT!

Pointless thread is pointless.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

@Enforcer1975:

A minimum of 5-10% free float zone should be enforced. That way you get rid off the screen marking accurate "aimpoint".

@MulleDK19:

I take it you do not play BMP3 side gunner a lot, in urban areas? Or pick any other weapon/vehicle without proper aim/lock indication. Like Javelin. Stinger. SOFLAM. That's why I play on lower difficulties, but with addons to remove the most horrid weapon cursors.

Completely agree with galzohar. Default values for server settings should be tweaked, so that "copy & paste" servers wouldn't be horribly aid oriented. Many servers I join, when they are running regular difficulty, usually everything is enabled. Hardware oriented missions, like most of the mainstream missions, become too painful for me for the reasons mentioned above, when run at veteran or expert. Infantry based missions work good though, except AI tends to be horribly good. Just old age kicking in I guess. :)

[johncage 30]

hi, it is cheating. officially removal is preferable. thank you.

[enforcer1975 0]

hi, it is cheating. officially removal is preferable. thank you.

[HyperU2 11]

Is the right mouse button zoom view still realistic?

[galzohar 31]

Considering the zoom doesn't let you see anything you wouldn't be able to see IRL I wouldn't consider the zoom unrealistic. In fact the zoom is not enough, as even with the zoom it is very hard to see enemies that you would've been able to see IRL.

[jw custom 56]

@MulleDK19:

I take it you do not play BMP3 side gunner a lot, in urban areas? Or pick any other weapon/vehicle without proper aim/lock indication. Like Javelin. Stinger. SOFLAM. That's why I play on lower difficulties, but with addons to remove the most horrid weapon cursors.

Erhhm maybe i'm missunderstanding you but you can edit the difficulty setting, like selecting regular and then edit it so you got no crosshair!