3rd person versus Egoshootermode

[TRexian 0]

... lollipopping my position away...

[h]

;) :)

[Deathstroke 10]

I should say that it is at least as realistic as playing with the equivalent of a cardboard box over your head with a hole cut into the front.

• 
  1st person feels that way because people who use 3rd dont adapt well to 1st person. Its like wearing a gasmask, if you wear it for 4 hours straight you dont walk into people or feel scared crossing roads anymore, because your brain adjust your headmovement to compensate. If you however pull it off all the time it will remain to feel unnatural
  
• 3rd person allows people to locate their enemies without the use of any realistic form of cover and/or concealment. Any person with any sense for fair play will see this as an exploit, but people wanting to engage their opponent in more realistic firefights will have to play bf3 in order to find this? Its not odd that most shooters are completely 1st person, with the exepcetion of some vehicles to keep a ballance between infantry, armor and air units.
  
• People who see this as an exploit can do little to avoid when playing their favourite missions online as its depending on the admin preferecens whetever its on or not. Its not like if you join a 40+ player server for a certain gametype that there is another server just like it with 3rd on/off. This is therefor just another roadblock in gameplay consistency whereas arcade game offer better cosistency and therefor are more prone to becoming a populair game.
  

So in my eyes the allowance of 3rd for infantry units is a old long outdated concept in the world of fps shooters whetever it being an arcade or milsim.

It allows exploits, negates adaptation to first person mode and ruins consitency in online gaming experience. And the only reason why a person would want to use it because he misinterprets the feeling of safety and relaxation in 3rd mode opposed to unfamiliar feeling in 1st as a postive thing.

[dmarkwick 261]

And the only reason why a person would want to use it because he misinterprets the feeling of safety and relaxation in 3rd mode opposed to unfamiliar feeling in 1st as a postive thing.

This is why this discussion just keeps going round and round endlessly. The assumption that someone who cannot understand a point, believes that he understands it absolutely, and yet still makes an inaccurate assumption. I hardly ever play in 3rd person, but when I need it, I need it. Exploitation is not the reason. The reasons are many and varied, yet are relentlessly overlooked or simply dismissed by those who wish for the option to go.

However, it's an argument I have no real beef with, I'm pretty certain the option will remain, and therefore is consistent with my own preference, which is flexibility.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If you don't like what you see, change servers.

It's that simple.

Not really. At least on the public scene (we have our own private servers), such servers which are also populated are hard to come by. Plenty of "veteran" servers with 3rd and crosshairs enabled, making me waste my time and the server waste its bandwidth on me connecting and immediately disconnecting.

I've already said in other threads the head bobbing is totally unrealistic, for the simple reason that shaking the monitor, when your brain is concerned, is a TOTALLY different effect than shaking your head IRL. Try it yourself. Luckily, we can turn head bob off though so it's no excuse for 3rd person.

I find head bobbing and blur to reduce my abilities to acceptable levels realism wise. Add 20-25kg of gear that is slightly loose and/or uncomfortable, a helmet banging your head (feel free to add NVGs as well), and a loaded rifle or better yet an M240. Jump up and down like running, and try to read the license place of an approaching car while you keep swearing at your load. I'm not as observant in high speed activity wearing full load out as I am standing still and concentrating on what I'm trying to observe. Maybe headbob should be loadout/weight determined? You don't like headbob, then don't carry, and I won't object ;) Only reason I prefer some (but not full) flexibility with a control, is that how the effect is perceived varies greatly with the frame rates you're able to achieve.

But everybody knows that realistic firefights (like in Arma 2) don't happen at fewer than 500 meters. Your argument is invalid!

Strange, I never got the impression that Arma firefights had anything to do with realism. Distances wrong, compositions wrong, not working suppression (AI, although they can be told to suppress in mission scripts), AI and humans way too effective shooters, ammo spent per kill not remotely near realistic levels etc etc etc.

But, I'd like to bring up this one again:

Dont forget less blur so you can actually see things!

I still always play in 3rd person, unless of course its disabled. Personally I think some of the issues can at least be helped by adding some limitations instead of foaming at the mouth and screaming 1st person.

- move it closer just a notch (ie reduce the view)

- limit vertical movement downwards (no point in aiming at the ground anyway, this will help peeking over walls)

- go to 1st person when clicking free-look

- remove the aimpoint in 3rd person regardless of difficulty setting (after all, its hard to see where your aiming when you're outside your head).

Anything else?

At least here is one user, 3rd lover even, that wants to and have suggestions to reduce the ridiculousness in the current 3rd implementation, with sensible reasoning behind it as well. I'm all for these changes to the 3rd system.

[humvee28 10]

The only thing that´s keeping me playing in 1st Person is Track IR.

It doesn´t widen your LOS, or corrects the View to Humans View (Eyes and their Movement),

but you don´t have to mess with Keyboard Steerings for Headmovement anymore, and you

will be able to behave more natural in every Situation. If i would not own Track IR, i would switch to 3rd also.

Just my two Cents. :)

[Deathstroke 10]

This is why this discussion just keeps going round and round endlessly. The assumption that someone who cannot understand a point, believes that he understands it absolutely, and yet still makes an inaccurate assumption......

....However, it's an argument I have no real beef with, I'm pretty certain the option will remain, and therefore is consistent with my own preference, which is flexibility.

Well this discussion would not affect the outcome anyway as it has already been shown that arma 3 will have 3rd person. But conversations on the internet are mostly out motivation by frustation anyway and should the highly unlikely chance arise that some dev would read this and remove 3rd then :bounce3:

I am just trying to make a point to you, there is not a forum discussion about 3rd on 1st person games being it from cod or games even with vehicles such as red ochestra 2. There are discussions about 3rd on games like this and battlefield, only because its there. Lot of conversations about the bf3 having no cursors in 3rd anymore and that the camera is 2 close.

So my assumption to say that people using 3rd only do it for the feeling that 3rd gives them remains unchallenged. Because otherwise conversations like this would arise in other games as well.

Why I dont take comments pro-3rd seriously is because I use 3rd to when I "need" and I know that its just to be able to look at something, see how well you are positioned, see if your located well in a bush, how you are located between friendly units, how your chopper is touching down, quick overview of a town etc. and when that happens my brain gives me a bit of endorfine when I realise my surroundings and safety, because thats in my nature,

And to achieve that in 1st person you need to look around franticly like a bird and thats the moment you enter finger starts to itch like a smoker on break.

It doesnt matter if you use 3rd a lot indication of addiction is there once you feel unconformtable when its not there.

And this is just an aspect of 3rd, my previous post indicates the negative effects of it besides ruining fair play in pvp.

Any idea that makes the game more consistent and exploit free is in my eyes a good idea. So I am not always pro flexibillity.

Flexibillity was definantly there in the days of ofp but was restrained to low number programmers so the consistency in gameplay helped grow of clans within communities. Since arma1 consitency is not even there on a single server so clan forming only really happens in the coop enviroment. Maybe there are some cases i havent been envolved with but compared to the 3 tourneys for each game type like in the ofp days is long gone.

Edited November 3, 2011 by Deathstroke

[dmarkwick 261]

Well this discussion would not affect the outcome anyway as it has already been shown that arma 3 will have 3rd person. But conversations on the internet are mostly out motivation by frustation anyway and should the highly unlikely chance arise that some dev would read this and remove 3rd then :bounce3:

I am just trying to make a point to you, there is not a forum discussion about 3rd on 1st person games being it from cod or games even with vehicles such as red ochestra 2. There are discussions about 3rd on games like this and battlefield, only because its there. Lot of conversations about the bf3 having no cursors in 3rd anymore and that the camera is 2 close.

So my assumption to say that people using 3rd only do it for the feeling that 3rd gives them remains unchallenged. Because otherwise conversations like this would arise in other games as well.

Why I dont take comments pro-3rd seriously is because I use 3rd to when I "need" and I know that its just to be able to look at something, see how well you are positioned, see if your located well in a bush, how you are located between friendly units, how your chopper is touching down, quick overview of a town etc. and when that happens my brain gives me a bit of endorfine when I realise my surroundings and safety, because thats in my nature,

And to achieve that in 1st person you need to look around franticly like a bird and thats the moment you enter finger starts to itch like a smoker on break.

It doesnt matter if you use 3rd a lot indication of addiction is there once you feel unconformtable when its not there.

And this is just an aspect of 3rd, my previous post indicates the negative effects of it besides ruining fair play in pvp.

Any idea that makes the game more consistent and exploit free is in my eyes a good idea. So I am not always pro flexibillity.

Flexibillity was definantly there in the days of ofp but was restrained to low number programmers so the consistency in gameplay helped grow of clans within communities. Since arma1 consitency is not even there on a single server so clan forming only really happens in the coop enviroment. Maybe there are some cases i havent been envolved with but compared to the 3 tourneys for each game type like in the ofp days is long gone.

Indeed, however the complaints of the no-3rd viewers have at least one, huge massive solution, that is to option it off. That it is not done is the *actual* complaint IMO, so it becomes not one of feature, but one of server setup.

I might make the suggestion that 3rd person views are disabled by default on MP games, meaning that if it is actively enabled, then it was the result of an actual genuine preference by the server admin and therefore a gameplay feature actively desired.

[galzohar 31]

3rd being an option would have been fine if default was 3rd person off. After all, it only makes sense that the default options in a game that can be played against other players will be the one with least exploit potential.

Right now for hosts/admins that don't understand the importance or are too lazy to figure out what each setting does, 3rd is not an option, it is enforced. Would have been much better if it was the other way around.

If people want exploits in their games, they should be allowed to have them, but don't force it on people who are unaware of the exploits.

[Herbal Influence 10]

If you wanna annoy a lot of people and make them stay away from BIS-games: reduce freedom by less free server settings and make it more 'special' and reduced. And then you can feel really hardcore!

Hardcore, but unrealistic - noone of us would enter real war with 1st-person-tunnelview ...

The reduction of environmental awareness is extreme and deadly.

Another thing that I look on with big sorrow, as I see numbers of players decreasing (http://arma2.swec.se/server/list): Add more and more mods so that a newcomer will need hours of additonal installing mods, missions and islands. I love mods but at the moment (espc. with BF3 coming out) as far as I can see it's quite unconvenient for a newcomer. Even I, doing BIS games since 2001, cannot explain which variant and composition of OA/Arma2, Combined Operations etc. you need to really find an enjoyable server. For newbies it must be a nightmare ...

Add both of us big number of mods and reduce to tunnelview: You will feel very private soon. Unique even. Hardcore even. But you will feel very alone with your elaborated maps and missions ... on a vast map.

[Atkins 10]

How hard it is to understand that both 1st and 3rd person views are unrealistic. The matter boils down to summing up upsides and downsides of these 2 viewmodes and afaik most ppl choose the 1st person cos 3rd person is basically cheating as it has been stated many times before with _good_ arguments. In a PvP gameplay it is kinda important that no one gets to cheat. Shooting-bots-servers should not care about such matter.

You can always play Tomb Raider or Mario Kart if u are unhappy :D

If people want exploits in their games, they should be allowed to have them, but don't force it on people who are unaware of the exploits.

QFT

[colosseum 34]

I just like the ability to see my player model, weapon, backpack etc...

[themaster303 22]

why you call that tunnel view ??

use alt+mouse and look around. OR use trackir / freetrack.

no more tunnelview.

i call it pussy mode to play in 3rd person. its also a cheatmode. you can look

over walls/other things you wouldn´t do in 1st person.

my point of view.

[hund 0]

Pussymode, eh? I guess that makes me the pussymeister, which is not at all a bad vocation!

Tunnelview pertains to your field of view, not to any rigidity of the shoulders and neck region. Put a box on your head and look around; you are now looking around with tunnelview.

:D

[DieselJC 196]

Personally I like the 3rd person...great for vehicles when backing up or getting them parked into tight spots..also if I use 1st person too much I get a bad headache..dont know if its an orientation thing or some type of vertigo but I cant play 1st person for more than a few minutes so I am constantly changing back and forth.

JC

[roguetrooper 2]

its also a cheatmode

What everybody in MP can use/exploit is not a cheat, I would say.

However I am also under the (personal) impression that you miss something of the environment playing in 1st person in comparison to real life's view.