3rd person versus Egoshootermode

[Herbal Influence 10]

3rd person view versus egoshootermode

I just played the crcti on ArmA2 and I was fascinated.

I just start straight away no need do download anything.

My only frustration was (beside the known, excusable bugs):

3rd view was deactivated by the admin.

But my topic is something for all MP-Missons taken aside the doomlike-egoshooter-maps where you run around buildings ...

Not to read again and again what I have heard in numerous online games where I asked not to deactivate 3rd-persons-view:

(1) The "shoot-over-the-hill"-possibility - you can watch a nice demonstration on youtube.

(2) "Flying" over the shoulders is real only after death - at least following some being-clinically-death-reports.

(3) Using the <alt> - key - feature with mouse moving to turn your head.

But !

While you read this text you focus on your monitor screen.

Nevertheless you realize something moving that is 90 degree aside from your viewing line onto the screen - to the left and to the right.

Try yourself!

That's a viewing angle of about a 180 degrees!

And that's not for nothing. Anything else - kills ! ;-)

And scientists found out that the borders of our "viewing field" are even more contrast-sensitive than the rest of the eyefields, because or for this they do no sense colours but only black and white. A result of the evolution of the eyes for it was always very important to realize a wild animal or any other danger from aside of your position.

In other words:

No-third-view or "egoshootermode" as I like to call it is quite unrealistic in a very basic and an very important sense. It steals important information like as if - and many will remember this argument - you were wearing a gasmask (or diving mask on your face).

To illustrate this: I once was diving in the Red Sea (near Israel, Jordania, Egypt) which is famous for its richness of sharks. While I was inspecting a big nice coral reef under water with my back to the dark blue sea I couldn't see two sharks that were coming up from behind. I didn't even notice them while they were swimming aside of me because a diving mask makes you look through a "tunnel" only, the better the mask the lesser this effect.

After the shark-experience I began to compensate by turning my head nervously and steadily to the right and to the left - you may imagine me as a frightened person ;-)

And this constant head turning is what you can do with the <alt> - key, but that is far from realistic: Neither do you constantly behave like that without a diving mask on your face, nor do you like to hit the <alt> key in real life ... ;-), especially when you need all your hands on your weapons etc.

Indeed it seems to be the only way to "realize" the real viewing field with that "flying over the shoulders" effect of third view "on".

The fact that "shooting-over-the-hill" is possible - is undeniable and I do yet NOT know how to disable that. But ... in my experience of a hundred ctis per year within the last 8 years nobody ever did ever use that "cheat".

What, instead of 3rd view, really should be deactivatable is the strategic view (<,> on the num-pad).

By the by:

I thank the Oldfreakz-Clan very much to have 3rd on all the time "on" their server.

This is my opinion. You may have another - but please give reasons. And please do not simply reiterate the known reasons I quoted above. Thanx !

Edited June 18, 2009 by Herbal Influence
mistypes

[whisper 0]

OTOH 3rd person view brings in even worse unrealistic feature, seeing past an obstacle without having to move any part of your body out of said cover. You can know who is behind this wall without having to actually go see it. Even worse when you're commander of a squad.

If you don't use it while playing, you're putting yourself at a huge disadvantage, trust me. I can't count the number of helpless IA I got using this

[nobrainer 0]

I read what your saying, but as an admin, I'm not going to enable 3rd person view.

EVER...

[nedley 10]

I read what your saying, but as an admin, I'm not going to enable 3rd person view.

EVER...

Wants to see more of this train of thought in servers!

[BaseJumper 10]

You can have better peripheral vision (meaning you can have 180 degrees of vision), if you use 3 monitors and the Matrox TripleHead2Go

http://www.matrox.com/graphics/en/products/gxm/

Its going to cost you a lot of money for this though :D

[Herbal Influence 10]

@whisper:

I understand.

But you can't you see it this way too:

You don't have the same size/tallness as before. You are about a 100 cm taller than without 3rd view. And therefore you may look over a wall which is not higher than that.

In reality the tallness of men differ from about 150 cm to 237 cm ... roughly estimated. The tall ones are no cheaters though they can overlook a wall the small ones can't. ;-)

@BaseJumper:

yeah, and you can use this IR-thing which makes your avatars head turning like your own, real head ... but it's only like turning around with a gasmask on your face ... no fun ... making me seasick.

[whisper 0]

@whisper:

I understand.

But you can't you see it this way too:

You don't have the same size/tallness as before. You are about a 100 cm taller than without 3rd view. And therefore you may look over a wall which is not higher than that.

In reality the tallness of men differ from about 150 cm to 237 cm ... roughly estimated. The tall ones are no cheaters though they can overlook a wall the small ones can't. ;-)

It's not a question of size! at all, it's not only because my view point is above me!

It's because my view point is external and can move

Switch to 3rd person, use your ALT key and you can see people when it's physically absolutely not possible to see him, and not only by looking above obstacles.

Want to check if someone awaits you after this house corner? Approache, stops 3m before, go in 3rd person view, press Alt and look at the house, wait for the guy to looke elswhere and surprise him.

Now, as I said, even worse, when squad leader, go in commanding mode, zoom out to the max, and move your camera to check inside houses, behind vehicles, etc... That's far more than "looking above your shoulder"

[Herbal Influence 10]

when squad leader, go in commanding mode, zoom out to the max, and move your camera to check inside houses, behind vehicles, etc...

Ok ... understood. But what is the "commanding mode"?

Maybe I am using it all the time and we only use different words.

Do you mean strategic view? (<,> - key on the numpad)

But you can use that anytime without being squad leader?

[whisper 0]

Yup it's the "." of numpad, and only usable when squad leader

[dvolk 10]

3rd person view is a bit unrealistic, but I think it's acceptable when playing against AI since they ignore grass and apparently some obstacles.

[whisper 0]

3rd person view is a bit unrealistic, but I think it's acceptable when playing against AI since they ignore grass and apparently some obstacles.

This is the only reason I'd put back 3rd person view in place, waiting for BI to implement the grass layer.

But I'm currently more into trying to make the server disable grass automatically. Not found yet as seemingly the old ArmA1 technic doesn't work :(

If I still can't do it, 3rd PoV will be put back in place on my server

[Herbal Influence 10]

Ok - but there is still no solution to the "shark-problem".

At least none without steady head-shaking .... :-(

[Defunkt 431]

To hell with triple-head, I want THIS:

[Herbal Influence 10]

TMHO - that would work ... !

But only if your distance to the monitor is shorter than about a 50 cm .... and thats bad for the eyes ... :-((

Other ideas to the problems of sharks attacking directly from the side ?

For remembrance:

Natural view: you see, at least: notice! them.

Egoshooterview: you don't see them without turning your head steadily, nervously from side to side !

TMHO:

Egoshooterview is not the "realistic" viewingmode.

At least not more realistic than 3rd view.

Both produce

- a lack or (egoshooterview)

- an overflow of information (3rd view).

By the by:

Does anybody know whether the use of three monitors with triplehead (or so) does make sense in this regard? Whether ArmA is build to be used with it?

Edited June 19, 2009 by Herbal Influence
yes ;-)

[nomdeplume 0]

Doesn't ARMA 2 have "peripheral vision dots" at the screen edges to indicate the presence of people and vehicles that your character can "sense" or otherwise knows about but can't see?

Perhaps an improvement of this system would be a better solution for Herbal Influence's "tunnel vision" problem, without giving people magical abilities to look over walls and around corners. Coupled with headtracking it should provide a realistic system; the pips let you know "something" is there, and if it's not expected you can easily look at it to identify it.

[monty67t 0]

I agree that 3rd person view should not be available while playing the role of an infantryman. However, even though alot of people don't use it, I believe it should be available to pilots. I was a crew chief in a Blackhawk for several years in real life. The view and perspective you get in the cockpit view is nothing close to the real thing. In real life you have crew chiefs on both sides of your aircraft telling you where you are, calling you into LZs, etc. The only way I will fly a helicopter is in 3rd person view. If I had track ir and a full crew who knew how to perform crew chief duties like airspace surveillance and stuff then I would consider it. You just can't see shit when flying in 1st person view, you have no peripheral vision and in my opinion its far from realistic.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

I also agree that 3rd person mode should be completely out of the question for all but the lowest difficulty (maybe even hardcoded), especially so in multiplayer. However, it is a great tool while debugging a mission, even multiplayer.

I agree that 3rd person might be helpful for spatial awareness in some cases, like helo flying, truck driving, and maybe even tank driving. However, the 3rd person view should not add any situational awareness to those using it. The way to implement it is via a very top down view, just slightly oriented forward, and no freelook. You'll know the position of your vehicle, like in being able to shift position in your seat and do stuff with your body that you can't ingame. But you don't get any battle information that you shouldn't get while in this view.

[whisper 0]

I agree that 3rd person view should not be available while playing the role of an infantryman. However, even though alot of people don't use it, I believe it should be available to pilots. I was a crew chief in a Blackhawk for several years in real life. The view and perspective you get in the cockpit view is nothing close to the real thing. In real life you have crew chiefs on both sides of your aircraft telling you where you are, calling you into LZs, etc. The only way I will fly a helicopter is in 3rd person view. If I had track ir and a full crew who knew how to perform crew chief duties like airspace surveillance and stuff then I would consider it. You just can't see shit when flying in 1st person view, you have no peripheral vision and in my opinion its far from realistic.

I used to push Alt and turn my virtual head when needing to check obstacles on sides and such in choppers. The only issue is trying to auto-lock in this case :D => Alt-TAB == going out of game! I keep forgetting it

Thing is, I think for ground vehicle, the 3rd person view gives you too much. I like the impression of confinement when driving from the inside. Makes you feel uncertain

[galzohar 31]

Change your keybindings...

[whisper 0]

Thank you, Captain Obvious :)

[galzohar 31]

Too many people religiously insist on keeping default keybindings ;)

[horror1 10]

i support 3rd person except in pvp.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

If I have to choose between the current 3rd person view and only 1st person, I have to go with 1st person only.

[whisper 0]

Too many people religiously insist on keeping default keybindings ;)

Nah, it's not religion... Well, unless you call laziness a religion :)

[DJSeanIT 10]

I read what your saying, but as an admin, I'm not going to enable 3rd person view.

EVER...

May I ask how you disabled it so I can do it on our network?

Cheers :bounce3: