WIP: Stuff you are working on 2!

[USSRsniper 0]

IrishDeviant ,

I hope you are aware that Binarization will triangulate your geometry, so whatever you have now just multiply it by 2, and you will have true polygon count. And game limits you to somewhere around 25k polygons(polycount in O2 when Buldozer refuses to render the model). So don't over do the smoothing :rolleyes:

Edited July 19, 2009 by USSRsniper

[IrishDeviant 10]

Max Power, simply put, your a douche. Your comments are unnecessary and obnoxious. I posted one damn comment about saying we needed some OpFor aircraft in addition to the USAF jets being made, and you have taken it upon yourself to become an advocate of "relevant posts only". 99.9% of what I have said (with the exclusion of dealing with you), has been on topic and related to my F-22 Raptor that I am spending my time making for the community. You on the other hand, haven't posted one relevant word in this thread. So STFU! BTW, I'm reporting your post so that hopefully, an admin can tell 'you' to keep it 'on topic'!

By the way, the poly count of my Raptor thus far: 17,100 tris

And, thanks Sniper, but 3DS Max 2010 has a modifier called Pro Optimizer that triangulates and "poly crunches" the mesh. It is absolutely priceless when it comes time for LoD's! But, thanks for the tip.

Edited July 19, 2009 by IrishDeviant

[franze 196]

IrishDeviant and Max Power, this is not the place to have a flame war. Both of you need to take a breather and cool it.

[IrishDeviant 10]

Thank you Franze, ....back on topic. I've started working on the cockpit. With what I have, I'm right at 18,400 tris, and I still have the gear to model. But, I think I'll be able to squeeze in right at 20k tris. (if need be, I can always poly crunch the model a little)

Edited July 19, 2009 by IrishDeviant

[rstratton 0]

you'd make 2 diff cockpit models. low detailed cockpit would be for the external view lod's. high detailed for pilot view lod

[IrishDeviant 10]

you'd make 2 diff cockpit models. low detailed cockpit would be for the external view lod's. high detailed for pilot view lod

Thanks, the cockpit I'm working on is just for the "external view" LoD. I'll make the higher version a bit later. The cockpit I have right now is only 1k tris. Thanks for the info, though. I figured that 2 cockpits we're required, but I hadn't gotten confirmation on it.

[max power 21]

All in all, you'll need to model it something like 10 more times in various LODs with various restrictions, like all tris and no convex shapes in order to give the game everything it needs to run the fighter. The pilot LOD is not just a cockpit but whatever else the pilot can see from his seat. In this jet I don't think there is much, but you'll have to see. This is fortunate because the maximum number of polies / verts the engine can handle is 32k.

[IrishDeviant 10]

Thank you Max Power. So, if I understand you correctly, the LoD-0 has the full cockpit, but only the parts of the exterior than can be seen by the pilot.? Also, the model I'm working on right now will be fine for all the versions except for the collision mesh. Off of this version, I can detail the cockpit and cut off what isn't needed for LoD-0. For LoD-1, I can keep pretty much everything the same. LoD-2 and LoD-3 will simply be poly crunching (10k tris, 5k tris, etc) And, the collision mesh will just be a basic concave mesh that wraps around the aircraft for collisions. What I'm not entirely clear on is whether the null objects (for weapons, effect, etc) need to be in place for each of those versions, whether each version needs to be exported separately, or all in the same scene file, and also what the texture size requirement is. As well as whether materials should be applied to each object individually or through sub-object materials. And, if so, how many is the limit.

Like I've said before, just waiting on RKSL-Rock to release his tutorials. From there, I should have it in the air in around a week. Then, it's on to the B-2B Spirit of Kansas.

--Edit--

Also, are you sure about the 32k poly limit? I've been told that it's either 20k or 25k. 32k would open up a lot of room to add more details. Hell, that would even give me room to get my 40k poly F-16 into Arma II. (crunched down of course)

Edited July 19, 2009 by IrishDeviant

[Serclaes 0]

the poly limit, may it be 20, 25 or 32k is the stuff you can not exceed. However, the should not exceed limit is way below that. I see no sense in having a 32k poly fighter, which you will rarely see closely in action anyhow. 15k tris should be the "guidevalue".

I realise the raptor is not very edgy, but i strongly recommend reducing the polycount.

[IrishDeviant 10]

the poly limit, may it be 20, 25 or 32k is the stuff you can not exceed. However, the should not exceed limit is way below that. I see no sense in having a 32k poly fighter, which you will rarely see closely in action anyhow. 15k tris should be the "guidevalue".

I realise the raptor is not very edgy, but i strongly recommend reducing the polycount.

I don't think that polys are going to be a problem. If users have a computer that is able to run Arma II smoothly, then they shouldn't see more than a 1, possibly 2 frame-per-second difference between a 15k poly model and a 25k poly model (if they even notice a difference). Also, the LoD levels are triggered by the Model Detail setting in the graphics settings. So, if users are having problems with frames, they can try lowering settings a bit. However, I will do some testing to see what the difference is. If for some reason, though I doubt it, the 25k poly version shows any performance problems, then I'll turn it down a bit. Also, the second LoD will only be 10k, so it shouldn't be a big deal.

Although, my rig is running an nVidia GTX 260 (less than $200 I definitely recommend this card, it's inexpensive and fast) and an Intel QX9650 (a bit pricier), and 8 gigs Corsair Dominator RAM. So, when I get that far, I may upload a beta for people to test on different machines to see what others get as well.

Edited July 19, 2009 by IrishDeviant

[Serclaes 0]

Yeah, so they have low detail on all vehicles but yours, which they will never see closely anyhow.

What happens when there are 2 raptors? Thats a 2 to 4 frames drop.

Btw, the resolution LOD polycount has to be 50% of the last LOD. Means if the first LOD has 15000, the second LOD hast 7500, the third 3750, etc.

But in the end it's your model. You have to make it the way you like.

[IrishDeviant 10]

Well, that wasn't really what I was saying. I just meant that if people are having frame rate issues in general, then to lower settings. But, the point was, if you're not having frame rate issues with vanilla Arma II, then I doubt the polys within the poly limits (which are set by the engine developer) will make much of a difference. As for LoDs, typically engine developers follow the 50% rule of thumb. Which influences a variety of factors, such as distance that LoDs are triggered, poly count of vegetation, terrain resolution, etc. However, those limits should be considered as minimums, but you can reduce further if necessary. I've already crunched the Raptor down to see where it stands at the moment, and I'm able to reduce to around 8,500 polys without loosing much quality. At least not quality that would be noticed from 20m away. However, I appreciate the concern on my model. I'm sure you mean well. But, I've made quite a few models before, and am confident that I'll be able to produce a model that the community will enjoy. Also, like I mentioned above, I will actually test the model to make sure it performs well. And, if it turns out that nothing over 16k polys is going to work for everyone in the community. Then, I'll reduce it to 16k.

Also, hardware prices for good, fast hardware have come down dramatically. And, that cheap hardware has been out long enough for game developers to take advantage of the extra bang for the buck. But, that means that gamers who want games that continue to get better will have to upgrade. The average gamer should expect to spend between $200 - $300 per year on their rig keeping it up-to-date. (I spend that much in gas for my car every month) I'm not saying that I think people should upgrade their systems just so I can add some extra polys. What I'm saying is that Arma II is no slouch, so if 4-5k polys on screen is making a big difference on your rig, it's time to update. Again, if vanilla Arma II runs smooth on your system, 5 of my Raptors parked next to each other won't make a bit of difference to your frames. The 1-2 fps that I mentioned was pertaining to people with out-of-date rigs that already have frame rate issues. To put it in perspective, Crysis, at any given point in time, has over 2 million polys on screen. Granted, I doubt Arma II is as well optimized, but 4-5k, that you only see when your are up close to a model, is really nothing. At least when you're talking about current generation games on a current generation system. Also, the only people who are ever going to see those extra polys are the pilots that love to fly these aircraft. Those are the people I'm making it for. I'm not criticizing what you're saying, but in the bigger picture of how many polys are on screen vs how many polys I'm trying to squeeze into the Raptor, it really isn't a system killing proposition. And, again, if by some freak of mathematical phenomena, those extra polys do cause performance issues, I'll cut them back. But, thank you for your feedback. I definitely read all the feedback I get so I can make sure that the model isn't only as good as I want it to be, but also works for everyone else. Anyway, what I'm really looking for are engine specific things such as naming conventions, animation requirements, weapon integration, etc. I'd also like to open up a "Gear" menu when the aircraft are near a vehicle supply crate so that the pilot can change the load out of his armament. Those are the areas that I'd love to get some info on.

Anyway, gonna be out most of the day. I'll be working on the Raptor some more this evening though.

--Hey, Fortran. Remember my mile long posts from CryMod... Nothing changes does it. ;)

Edited July 19, 2009 by IrishDeviant

[DaSquade 0]

Small update:

->Higher res picture: McMillian high res

Still early WIP texture work, but tac50 and CounterSniper scope have normal map (no smdi yet).

*Scubaman/Dasquade colaboration.

99% change we will make a woodland version aswell, maybe even a guilly camouflaged version, but we need to check in what way that could be done.

Offcourse no sniper team is good without a proper laser range finder:

*Pretty high facecount: +-4k tris.

Also pretty WIP (no smdi, no lens effects and some bugging shadow volumes).

Working on an other essentional tool for the sniper team, but this will need some good scriptwork and GUI work.

[IrishDeviant 10]

DaSquade, great work man. When I'm not in the air, I'm behind the scope of an AS50. lol Probably because I'm too much of a wimp to get up close in combat. rofl

Anyway, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by bugging shadow volumes, but I have a feeling that it is probably a smooth group issue. The weird dark shading that you get on the surface of the model is usually a sign of either 2 verts on top of each other that need to be welded, or smooth groups not meshing up. It could also be caused by a degenerated face. Basically a 4 sided polygon that is being twisted. Even though polys have 4 sides, hardware still sees it as 2 triangles. Literally, there are only two differences between tris and polys (or quads): First, obviously, you don't see the diagonal line between the corners of the quad. And second, both triangles that make up the quad are forced onto the same smoothing group. The way to fix it, cut the poly into a tri, and possibly change the smoothing group of one of the sides. However, if this isn't what you meant, then I've got no idea, therefore, ignore everything I've just said. lol

[USSRsniper 0]

I hate making LODs..... finished with 6 LODS in 3 days :eek: Now the fun part begins, texturing

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6274/arma22009071912424066.png

Also is there a way in O2 to scale all LODs at once? Or you really have to scale each LOD individually...

Edited July 19, 2009 by USSRsniper

[DaSquade 0]

Nah, not a resolution model issue but shadowVolume model issue. Not the first this i had this 'clipping' issues, just never found a good solution.

Shadowvolume lod is closed, no texture/material assigned , tris and hard edges.

Anyway, added a desert tan texture version:

EDIT: in the end, the shadow bug on the lens isn't a problem as the glass still needs a material (reflection and remove shadows).

USSRsniper: Check the scale/move/rotate pop-up box. There is an option "apply to all lods".

---------- Post added at 05:42 PM ---------- Previous post was at 04:54 PM ----------

@USSRsniper: good job. Lod reductions suck, but it is almost the most rewarding task (performence).

Good luck on the textures and shaders (don't forget to bake an ambient occlusion and ambient shadow map).

Might want to make a desert tan texture for the scope :) .

Check my previous post regarding the scaling.

Edited July 19, 2009 by DaSquade

[max power 21]

Thank you Max Power. So, if I understand you correctly, the LoD-0 has the full cockpit, but only the parts of the exterior than can be seen by the pilot.? Also, the model I'm working on right now will be fine for all the versions except for the collision mesh. Off of this version, I can detail the cockpit and cut off what isn't needed for LoD-0. For LoD-1, I can keep pretty much everything the same. LoD-2 and LoD-3 will simply be poly crunching (10k tris, 5k tris, etc) And, the collision mesh will just be a basic concave mesh that wraps around the aircraft for collisions. What I'm not entirely clear on is whether the null objects (for weapons, effect, etc) need to be in place for each of those versions, whether each version needs to be exported separately, or all in the same scene file, and also what the texture size requirement is. As well as whether materials should be applied to each object individually or through sub-object materials. And, if so, how many is the limit.

Like I've said before, just waiting on RKSL-Rock to release his tutorials. From there, I should have it in the air in around a week. Then, it's on to the B-2B Spirit of Kansas.

--Edit--

Also, are you sure about the 32k poly limit? I've been told that it's either 20k or 25k. 32k would open up a lot of room to add more details. Hell, that would even give me room to get my 40k poly F-16 into Arma II. (crunched down of course)

LOD-0 is the first external LOD. The LOD we are talking about is called the pilot LOD.

Proxy objects must be created in O2.

I am as positive about the 32k limit as I can be without actually meeting that limit. Adumb is a very reliable source of information.

The collision mesh is what they call the Geo LOD which also houses information for the weight and centre of gravity of the vehicle. Then there is the fire geo LOD, some shadow LODs, etc. The shadow geo LODs must be very simple and all tris. It should not be so tough to do a proper shadow LOD for the raptor since it is not a very complex shape. You just have to make sure the shadow LOD doesn't penetrate the skin of the aircraft or the cockpit, or else you get weird, geometric pools of shadow.

[USSRsniper 0]

The polygon count you see in O2 is not the same as in ArmA 2. I had made a model with 25k triangles. I was never able to get model with 30k triangles to work in ArmA 2.

Edited July 19, 2009 by USSRsniper

[max power 21]

I hate making LODs..... finished with 6 LODS in 3 days :eek: Now the fun part begins, texturing

http://img29.imageshack.us/img29/6274/arma22009071912424066.png

Also is there a way in O2 to scale all LODs at once? Or you really have to scale each LOD individually...

You have to scale them individually AFAIK, but you can use the input box and just keep using the same values. It ain't no thang.

The texture you have on there shows some fairly illogical patterns of wear... and wear that is far too pronounced imo. You should definitely scale that back.

[DaSquade 0]

About the maximum limite of 'faces'....

Shoot me, but isn't it more the amount of used points/vertexes in actual faces. Like a model of lets say 20k tris with all soft edges will have 24k vertexes. If you have modifed the edges into hard edges the vertex count will raise due to the face it will unattach the hard edge and (in O2) invisible add them for the other hard edge. So you will end with 28k vertexes.

Fact is, there is a limite for something. Anything behind that isn't supposed to be supported (afaik the engine hasn't been updated in that part and imho i think it is a fair limite...at least for weapons :p ).

In case you didn't noticed my edit in previous post about the scalling stuff in all lods at once:

Edited July 19, 2009 by DaSquade

[dm 9]

About the maximum limite of 'faces'....

Shoot me, but isn't it more the amount of used points/vertexes in actual faces. Like a model of lets say 20k tris with all soft edges will have 24k vertexes. If you have modifed the edges into hard edges the vertex count will raise due to the face it will unattach the hard edge and (in O2) invisible add them for the other hard edge. So you will end with 28k vertexes.

Fact is, there is a limite for something. Anything behind that isn't supposed to be supported (afaik the engine hasn't been updated in that part and imho i think it is a fair limite...at least for weapons :p ).

This man is correct.

It is a directX limit, absolute number of verts can not exceed ~32000.

[MehMan 0]

32768 basicly. 2^15.

[USSRsniper 0]

You have to scale them individually AFAIK, but you can use the input box and just keep using the same values. It ain't no thang.

The texture you have on there shows some fairly illogical patterns of wear... and wear that is far too pronounced imo. You should definitely scale that back.

Are you talkign about wear that I have on magazine? Because wear on actual gun is just BIS metal detail texture ;) Tips on texturing would really help, it's one area where I'm not that good.

[rstratton 0]

This man is correct.

It is a directX limit, absolute number of verts can not exceed ~32000.

if so how come other directx 9 games i make mods for handle half a million poly models no problem

[adumb 0]

if so how come other directx 9 games i make mods for handle half a million poly models no problem

lol.

Anyways my small project is still going strong, mapped her today.

http://www.suckysuckylongtime.com/very_long_folder_name/vwbugbig.jpg bigger