Enemy Accuracy way to good.

[no use for a name 0]

alright, I made 2 vids; but for some reason the second is way worse quality then the first; but I think it still gets the point accross. I'm also only using the freeware version of FRAPS, so I only get 30 sec. videos.

Here's a screenshot of the editor:

The first is the battle, I shoot once, ~5 seconds later the AI shoots and kills me. After I die the camera goes into spec mode and even shows the first-person view of the enemy soldier looking right where he shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHbnO5rt5s

Now that was kind of hard to see, so video 2 is just me going to the spot where I placed the AI. I start where I was, then run to where the AI was:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwhrGcs93o&feature=channel_page

[CarlGustaffa 4]

its like to the them(the AI), the buildings and walls do not exist as they will continue firing even when there is some obstruction infront. so there is no point for us to hide behind a wall or building. do you know what i mean?

That's what we want. It's called supression fire and bullet penetration.

dKhMOfaYwvE

[beita 10]

Try the same thing with your Terrain Detail at Very Low (basically, disable the clutter grass). Known fact that the AI sees right through it, so a lot of the "AI shot me through a bush!" is a direct result of this.

[IceShade 0]

Try the same thing with your Terrain Detail at Very Low (basically, disable the clutter grass). Known fact that the AI sees right through it, so a lot of the "AI shot me through a bush!" is a direct result of this.

Exactly.

In fact, players can do the exact same thing, because the grass disappears at a certain distance. Someone lying in thick grass at 500 meters is at a huge disadvantage, because he'll think he's in concealment, but he would in fact be in the wide open to the other. While it doesn't look as pretty, I set the terrain detail to very low in my missions for a reason.

[An-225 0]

Hi all

An-225 please post your experiment so it can be verified and examined. A video on youtube would also help.

How many shots did you fire?

Entry and exit wound and smoke could all give a human in reality your direction of fire. The experience and training an officer would have would also point them to likely attack directions.

There is no such thing as a silencer for rifles. It is a suppressor, it merely suppresses flash, sound and smoke it does not remove them. If you were in the frontal arc when firing or moving or not in proper cover each would lead to a spot.

At what distance where you?

As I said make the mission you are performing the experiment in available so others can test your hypothesis.

Kind Regards walker

I have been busy recently, so I haven't been able to answer to this.

Currently, ArmA is not on my hard drive, so I can't test it (nor can I record because I only have a Pentium 4).

People have told me that there is no such thing as a silencer, and I understand that a gun will never be totally silent. But 500+ meters away behind several hills and buildings with a suppressed M4 using an SD mag? That would be impossible to hear, or see.

The squad leader was behind a relatively tall hill, and the rifleman was located in the center of a small town, so it was impossible to see, or hear.

The frequent communication point is a good one, but the end result was the squad leader turning and facing my exact position. It should only send the leader into an alert state, not give away my position.

Here is an image pinpointing their positions: http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6960/soldierpositions.png

Now, the red dot is the rifleman. He was located in between several buildings in Gulan. The blue dot is the squad leader. He was located over a hill in Somato. If anyone is skeptical of the line of sight issue, fly over the area and look at the obstacles between the two points on the map. I was definitely using SD ammunition.

Edited June 13, 2009 by An-225

[dvolk 10]

Exactly.

In fact, players can do the exact same thing, because the grass disappears at a certain distance. Someone lying in thick grass at 500 meters is at a huge disadvantage, because he'll think he's in concealment, but he would in fact be in the wide open to the other. While it doesn't look as pretty, I set the terrain detail to very low in my missions for a reason.

I was kind of disappointed by this. Didn't they say that in ArmA 1 terrain was supposed to be 'raised' where the grass ends so someone proned far away would literally be under the earth (of course they'd see grass).

I thought that's what they'd do in ArmA 2. What we have now is pretty lame.

[Sonar 0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonar View Post

Wiki is useless

It just so happens that I have a degree in the area of that article and I can confirm that it is accurate enough for your purposes. A psychiatrist can tell you more information on the management of the disorder.

I didnt realise they gave degree's on wiki being usless????? I suspect you probably think you have a degree in ....psychology, only at a guess.

Perhaps you should brush up on your math skills too. Recall we were talking about 4 moa. What is 0.047 * 4? 0.19.

Wait a minute didnt you say 0.18. Sorry but I think YOU need to see a psychiatrist!

I didn't say that the ak74 can shoot 2 moa at 300 meters? Really? Huh. Because, like, when I look back there, I can see quite plainly what I wrote, and I remember explaining where I got that figure. Perhaps you should look again... and maybe work on your memory skills while you work on those other things I suggested.

[/Quote]

You didnt. you said, '...the AK74 SEEMS to be able groupings of 2 MOA. As I said see #153

So, again, dont go quoting stuff at me when you dont even quote yourself correctly.

LOL. Are you fucking shitting me?

End of argument. I have no time for people who cannot have a discussion without reverting to swearing to try and get their point across. Oh btw MOA means Minute of Arc Not bullet dispersion as you would have everyone think.

.....4 moa means 4 inches dispersion every 100 yards

again from#153

I appear to have a better understanding of the word "means" that you do. Your statment of

4 moa means 4 inches dispersion every 100 yards

would be better written as " MOA, as an example 4MOA means......" Remember to some people here english is a second language, so they dont always understand what we are saying.{quote] §13) Write in English

Please write only in English on the public forums. Avoid writing in any other language or any kind of slang or txt speak since the majority of the members most likely won't understand. In private messages you are of course welcome to write in any language you wish.

One of the forum rules I believe.

ta ta and go read your your notes for your degree and see what it says about people who swear.:nener:

Edited June 13, 2009 by Sonar

[whisper 0]

Err.. unless this changed drastically from the previous games the a.i. does not shoot at what they cant "see", they do not blind fire or use supressive fire unless "scripted".

The a.i. isnt capable of blind firing at a wall just because the player's last known position is behind that wall, if they do shoot you thru a wall they know precisely where you are and they will hit you accordingly (deflection thru material might deflect the round).

The a.i. does not shoot in your direction, they shoot at you because they know exactly who you are and where you are.

I've been at it for many years too ;) .

Err... In my version of A2 AI definitely blindly shoots in my general direction at house corners I just stepped behind or through metal barrier and such in my general direction without aiming exactly at me. I've several memories of being suppressed that way facing AI defending towns in Warfare

[USSRsniper 0]

I've seen this too...but it's very inconsistent.

Well for me it is consistent I'm yet to be killed behind a bush with 100% accuracy in single player or MP coop :rolleyes: Even hidden successfully from T-90's behind a bush. And if I use VSS Vintorez from behind a bush AI doesn't even get alerted at close range.

Err... In my version of A2 AI definitely blindly shoots in my general direction at house corners I just stepped behind or through metal barrier and such in my general direction without aiming exactly at me. I've several memories of being suppressed that way facing AI defending towns in Warfare

Same happened to me in Air Cav coop, after killing enemies with M-107, AI MG gunner suppressed me behind the rock while the rest tried to flank me.

About AI knowing where you are exactly behind a wall, in PVP MP mode I managed to kill players through they cover with high accuracy. Simply because I saw enemy run behind a fence and know where to expect them. If player can do it, why AI cheats when they kill you behind cover?

Edited June 13, 2009 by USSRsniper

[Bunkers 0]

I was surprised by the level of the AI when I first tried ArmA2. It soon became clear you have to be more aware and careful this time around. But having played some time with it now I must say I like it much better this way. My general impression is that they are not too good to handle, you're only forced to think through your moves more carefully than before. Definately an improvement from ArmA1.

[LeadCommando65 10]

I don't think the issue in this case is that the enemy AI has to much accuracy/precision by firing their shots. They just have a far too good enemy detection. They see things they shouldn't be able to see, as u take the players vision (full of vegetation) as a reference.

The AI in OFP/ArmA doesn't use the players view to calculate the line of sight. They are using a lower LOD model instead (View Geometry). I think in ArmA2 it didn't change. But the environment changed for the player cause there is a much more detailed vegetation, you have a really hard time to recognize enemies. On the other side, the enemy AI just sees blocks and columns and can easily detect and kill you.

I did not make a vid here to show you this case, because it should be obvious. But the videos of No Use For A Name show what I mean:

The first is the battle, I shoot once, ~5 seconds later the AI shoots and kills me. After I die the camera goes into spec mode and even shows the first-person view of the enemy soldier looking right where he shot:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvHbnO5rt5s

Now that was kind of hard to see, so video 2 is just me going to the spot where I placed the AI. I start where I was, then run to where the AI was:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWwhrGcs93o&feature=channel_page

In this video the player could be easily spotted and shot by the AI. And that's just because he was in line of sight to the AI. But as you see, the player can't even see where the shot was fired from. The AI knew about the player because he shot once, and the precision of the enemies "audio source detection" is just overpowered. I think the enemy soldier wouldn't have shot if he hasn't seen the player.

But there is another issue related to the enemies line of sight/sight radius. Today I made multiple AI tests about being hidden in/behind a bush. Here's the vid (sorry for the bad quality):

I don't know how they could spot my soldier, cause they were all looking in the wrong direction. Any ideas?

Edited June 13, 2009 by LeadCommando65

[KeyCat 131]

I was kind of disappointed by this. Didn't they say that in ArmA 1 terrain was supposed to be 'raised' where the grass ends so someone proned far away would literally be under the earth (of course they'd see grass).

I thought that's what they'd do in ArmA 2. What we have now is pretty lame.

I'm pretty sure this will be adressed in a forthcoming patch. It was the same in ArmA, the grasslayer wasn't there at release but added a bit later.

/KC

[walker 0]

I have been busy recently, so I haven't been able to answer to this.

Currently, ArmA is not on my hard drive, so I can't test it (nor can I record because I only have a Pentium 4).

People have told me that there is no such thing as a silencer, and I understand that a gun will never be totally silent. But 500+ meters away behind several hills and buildings with a suppressed M4 using an SD mag? That would be impossible to hear, or see.

The squad leader was behind a relatively tall hill, and the rifleman was located in the center of a small town, so it was impossible to see, or hear.

The frequent communication point is a good one, but the end result was the squad leader turning and facing my exact position. It should only send the leader into an alert state, not give away my position.

Here is an image pinpointing their positions: http://img8.imageshack.us/img8/6960/soldierpositions.png

Now, the red dot is the rifleman. He was located in between several buildings in Gulan. The blue dot is the squad leader. He was located over a hill in Somato. If anyone is skeptical of the line of sight issue, fly over the area and look at the obstacles between the two points on the map. I was definitely using SD ammunition.

Hi all

So let me get this right you have made your claim about ArmA II despite not having the game? In fact your computer is not capable of playing ArmA II. And until now you did not think it relevant to let people know.

In reply to Heatseaker your post seems in similar vein.

Videos of AI suppressing the players and other AI have been shown in this thread and others.

Here is one.

I at least let everyone know I do not have the ArmA II yet and have only used the experiments that others have posted as evidence in my arguments.

As I have said:

The only proper evidense to use in these threads is repeatable experiments.

I think my argument is here proven.

Sadly Walker

Edited June 13, 2009 by walker

[fabrizio_t 58]

Hi, i've just posted elsewhere some informations that incidentally refer to some of the issues discussed in this thread ...

Truth explained about squaddies knowing your position when you kill any AI group members

http://forums.bistudio.com/showpost.php?p=1309068&postcount=259

[Heatseeker 0]

Videos of AI suppressing the players and other AI have been shown in this thread and others.

Here is one.

I at least let everyone know I do not have the ArmA II yet and have only used the experiments that others have posted as evidence in my arguments.

As I have said:

The only proper evidense to use in these threads is repeatable experiments.

I think my argument is here proven.

Sadly Walker

Im in the same boat, still waiting for my pre ordered 505 copy but..

The a.i. doesnt use suppressive fire, if it did BIS wouldnt have made a suppressive fire game logic, in other words supression is scripted and not part of the a.i. behaviour.

The guy in that movie is not being suppressed, he's being directly shot at by a machine gunner (PK). The a.i. performs this way since OPF, units carrying machineguns open fire from further away, the dispersion gives the illusion of supressive fire.

High a.i. detection doesnt necessarily have to be an a.i. problem, it could be a problem with the configuration of the amunition you are shooting (i.e. visibleFire or audibleFire), for example a.i. always detected you instantly when you fire a rocket launcher.. for obvious reasons these values are high for rocket launcher ammunition.

There is just so much to it..

[An-225 0]

What about the AI knowing when one of their group members dies from several hundred meters away?

I tested this in ArmA, using a silenced weapon with subsonic ammunition. Upon killing a group member, the squad leader of that group turned and faced my direction. I think the auto-detection of a downed squad member is quite unrealistic, and can ruin some stealth missions.

I'm afraid you misunderstood me Walker, although upon rereading it, it does seem a little cryptic.

I stated that I tested it in ArmA, not ArmA 2, and I was asking if it was still the same.

I don't see what my PC specs have to do with it. I'm fine with flying around Utes in a C-130/V-22 until I get a new PC. ;)

[easty 0]

There are obvious problems with the AI. in some form I find it impressive, while in others I find it a step back from ARMA 2. I'm hoping there are bugs and not intended play.

Biggest gripe at the moment is that AI don't just attain your position when firing but also from satchels. try hiding in the tree's at max range perpendicular from an intended ambush with laden mine and satchels.. Even at max remote range any remaining Armour will instantly turn to your position and fire. That takes a bloody good tank commander to spot you in a second and direct fire.

I do play on expert and at the moment find this the only real problem apart from AI pinball driving as I love to be involved in a good ambush.

[Hell_Toupee 0]

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sonar View Post

Wiki is useless

I didnt realise they gave degree's on wiki being usless????? I suspect you probably think you have a degree in ....psychology, only at a guess.

Except wiki is not useless, its a tool like any other, just because there are idiots out there who can not utilise a tool properlly does not make it useless.

Wait a minute didnt you say 0.18. Sorry but I think YOU need to see a psychiatrist!

well it works out to be 0.188, 0.19 is a rounded figure.

End of argument. I have no time for people who cannot have a discussion without reverting to swearing to try and get their point across. Oh btw MOA means Minute of Arc Not bullet dispersion as you would have everyone think.

again from#153

*facepalm* x 1000

What do you think the MOA measurement is of forcrysakes.

I appear to have a better understanding of the word "means" that you do. Your statment of would be better written as " MOA, as an example 4MOA means......" Remember to some people here english is a second language, so they dont always understand what we are saying.{quote] §13) Write in English

I would say you do not, English is my first language and i have trouble reading your sentences, walkers explaination of what 4MOA means is short and to the point, what a second language reader needs.

[whisper 0]

Im in the same boat, still waiting for my pre ordered 505 copy but..

The a.i. doesnt use suppressive fire, if it did BIS wouldnt have made a suppressive fire game logic, in other words supression is scripted and not part of the a.i. behaviour.

The guy in that movie is not being suppressed, he's being directly shot at by a machine gunner (PK). The a.i. performs this way since OPF, units carrying machineguns open fire from further away, the dispersion gives the illusion of supressive fire.

High a.i. detection doesnt necessarily have to be an a.i. problem, it could be a problem with the configuration of the amunition you are shooting (i.e. visibleFire or audibleFire), for example a.i. always detected you instantly when you fire a rocket launcher.. for obvious reasons these values are high for rocket launcher ammunition.

There is just so much to it..

No, Heatseeker, guaranteed, the AI can use suppression fire from the get go, I've seen it at work and I garantee you if they were firing at me, they'd be awefully bad at it. They were firing in my direction, not at me, or at the house corner where I just disapeared, even though I had moved away

2nd thing : there is no suppression game logic in the editor. They do it by themselves

[Hell_Toupee 0]

Yep they suppress usually shooting up your last known location, its a bit different tho to AI that detect and locate you from behind bushes.

[USSRsniper 0]

Instead of testing AI first try to become AI for a moment. because you will be surprised sometime how easy it is to see someone behind a bush....

[whisper 0]

Yep they suppress usually shooting up your last known location, its a bit different tho to AI that detect and locate you from behind bushes.

From behind grass ;)

[USSRsniper 0]

From behind grass ;)

No, AI does not see the grass, grass only appears around player :p

[Alex72 1]

Biggest gripe at the moment is that AI don't just attain your position when firing but also from satchels. try hiding in the tree's at max range perpendicular from an intended ambush with laden mine and satchels.. Even at max remote range any remaining Armour will instantly turn to your position and fire. That takes a bloody good tank commander to spot you in a second and direct fire..

Hmm that was in ArmA1 as well before a patch. When they made the AI better now something must have reset lol. Before (not sure wich patch it was) in ArmA1 when you added a satchel or mine - enemy instantly knew where you were. The good part? BIS already fixed this problem before so it must been overlooked or just not implemented yet. I have hopes for that one as it was a immersion braker a la grandeur.

BIS will get it sorted. :)

Alex

[fabrizio_t 58]

2nd thing : there is no suppression game logic in the editor.

True.