*Bang*........*Bang*..... Lets get the AI's ROF sorted out.

[Muzza 0]

You can hear it towards the end of this video, (not the jeep machine gun, i think that was done by player actor)

http://www.arma2.com/cdf-video-2_en.html

When an AI is on for example a tank-mounted machinegun, firing at distant targets, their rate of fire is inversely proportional to their distance from their target, and it is very annoying.

I have no problem with AI targets firing less often at distant targets, but if they utilised short bursts, and the spacing between bursts was inversely proportional the the target distance it would sound much much better!

When driving a Humvee to a target with an M2 machine gun firing, it is obvious how this mechanic works. At a greater distance the gunner fires very slowly.

Bang.............Bang..........Bang.............Bang.

And as the target draws nearer this becomes:

Bang....Bang.....Bang......Bang.....Bang.....Bang

The key to BI's sucess in Arma2 will be creating a gripping environment, changing this artificial and robotic aspect of combat in favour of far superior bursts of fire will add so much to the game's atmosphere.

[W0lle 1050]

I don't know why still everyone comes up with "this must be changed immediately" polls while the game is going to be released in a couple of weeks.

It's way too late now to make changes and add features to the game.

[Muzza 0]

Of all the possible propossed changes i think this is probably one of the most rudamentory and easy to do.

[mr.g-c 6]

Its very easy to do, only the proper definitions for the spcific muzzles are missing in the config files as far as i remember.

In ACE for instace, AI shoots with PK burst at 600m and more without problems and suppressing you heavily.

Also since Arma2 is supposed to have a Suppression-System, they must use bursts from MGs, otherwise it has not the desired effect.

[W0lle 1050]

It's always easy to do when it's something the community wants... :cool:

[S!fkaIaC 10]

I dunno why, but it is somehow how BIS AI worked and workes and will work forever.

The Comanche in OFP had the same, from far it started to fire random bursts and the closer to target, the more often the AI gunner fired a burst until it sounds like full auto always on. Whoever is defending that crap, it is nonsense bull crap, most of the time it is a problem of the addon maker, but the root of the problem is with BIS.

[Stimpak_Addict 0]

I thought it was just like that because the AI is trying to get an accurate shot and not waste ammo.

EDIT: But I never actually noticed it until it was pointed out.

[Muzza 0]

The AI is trying to conserve ammo at longer distances... but can anyone say that being told 'fire the machinegun once every .8 seconds' is realistic? Im not sure myself but i doubt this is a used dicipline with automatic weapons.

[sparks50 0]

Its funny because with grenade launchers they fire it full auto like mad men. I set up a mission once, with an AI grenade launcher on the hill, and 40 attacking AIs. The grenade launcher wasted all hes ammunition for nothing in under a minute or two, and without ammunition, he was quickly overrun.

Edited May 9, 2009 by sparks50

[wipman 1]

Hi, i've voted for: It's necessary and will improve the game. If it's well done then it'll make

the AIs more usefull when the player is in charge or when the AIs are on their own; i'll like

to see the AI vehicles machineguns handling improved. Let's C ya

[That guy 10]

the AI ROF is all wonky in ArmA1. at long range thy use MGs like bolt action rifles, wile at close range ARs are use like machine guns

it urks me that AIs will expend an entire magazine into a single enemy at close range before he even hits the ground. but, i guess that just has to do with AI only detecting "Death" after the anim has finished. i wish the AI would use double tap or controlled pairs at close range rather than full auto or burst. it would be useful to conserve ammo, as it is very difficult to get through even basic missions in Arma with AI with out having to constantly re-arm them

but then again, it would also be cool if the professional soldiers in the US and Russian armies would use controlled accurate single fire for rifles (and short 6-9 round burst for MG), and the untrained CDF ChKZ and NAPA just layed down on the trigger for wild auto fire. but that's probably a bit too hard to do

[Muzza 0]

the AI ROF is all wonky in ArmA1. at long range thy use MGs like bolt action rifles, wile at close range ARs are use like machine guns

it urks me that AIs will expend an entire magazine into a single enemy at close range before he even hits the ground. but, i guess that just has to do with AI only detecting "Death" after the anim has finished. i wish the AI would use double tap or controlled pairs at close range rather than full auto or burst. it would be useful to conserve ammo, as it is very difficult to get through even basic missions in Arma with AI with out having to constantly re-arm them

but then again, it would also be cool if the professional soldiers in the US and Russian armies would use controlled accurate single fire for rifles (and short 6-9 round burst for MG), and the untrained CDF ChKZ and NAPA just layed down on the trigger for wild auto fire. but that's probably a bit too hard to do

I am no programmer, but it can probably be said that associating fire dicipline with skill level in the way you describe is much much easier to change than for example how the AI percieves enemies.

Compared to the huge problems that BI has had to surmount in terms of artificial intelligence, physics and visual appearance, changing the way a soldier shoots at an enemy after all prerequisates have been resolved is an elementary problem to solve, and in this aspect it will be very easy for BI to improve the game vastly in relatively little time.

It may seem superificial, just changing this one aspect, but i think it would also make players think more highly of the entire AI, instead of sounding like dumb bots firing rediculously at the enemy every 0.68 seconds with a 500rpm machine gun they would actually appear like authentic simulated soldiers.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

IF BIS would have an sophisticated cargo/inventory management in several stages (mag in weapon/vest/next cargo depot) they could adapt AI ROF accordingly.

If AI is "aware" that in addition to his 6 x 30 bullets in vest also 500 rounds waiting in an APC 400m away, he COULD adapt.

[maddogx 13]

IF BIS would have an sophisticated cargo/inventory management in several stages (mag in weapon/vest/next cargo depot) they could adapt AI ROF accordingly.

If AI is "aware" that in addition to his 6 x 30 bullets in vest also 500 rounds waiting in an APC 400m away, he COULD adapt.

That sounds like a novel idea to me and would be seriously awesome. Though considering an APC 400m away might be a bit exaggerated. AI machine gunners could, for example, rely on assistant gunners close by who are carrying ammo. Knowing there is a team mate close by who is carrying extra ammo, the AI could be much more liberal with suppressive fire.

[wipman 1]

Hi, you really wouldn't count that much on the support APC next to you, because it's a bigger

target than your squad laying down and it could blown off at any time by undetected hostiles

or the support squad of the OPFOR squad or group that you're attacking at; so you must count

on your own ammo and once the situation has been solved... then resupply at that APC

or the nearest friendly sector, checkpoint or FARP; this, at open field.

In a urban enviroment then you can count much more on the support vehicles that will

be much closer and there should be more cover for you to move to the APC and get back

to the firing line. Let's C ya

[That guy 10]

it is all those variables that you guys just listed that makes doing such things dynamically so hard

[S!fkaIaC 10]

That sounds like a novel idea to me and would be seriously awesome.

The idea was brought to BIS attention (does not mean their recognition) in 2002 already. That AI is able to go back to any object/subject defined as ammo pick-up point is in service since OFP. The only missing (maybe it is possible already?) is the ability to set the ROF ingame like [do_fire;xxxrounds;ROF=YYYY]. The confirmation by AI should be split in 2 stages, 1st the confirmation of the command and 2nd completion of fire mission with status (succ/nonsucc) as well as the ammo repository after completion. That would give the modder the ability to do his own scripting logic of the "awarness" of the AI about ammo pick-up points and the resulting AI behaviour.

Remarkable is that there must be a limit. AI currently fires the ammo until the bitter end. In my suggestion the command is always limited.

[funnyguy1 0]

I don't know why still everyone comes up with "this must be changed immediately" polls while the game is going to be released in a couple of weeks.

It's way too late now to make changes and add features to the game.

It really improoves the game (realism, immersion etc.), yet requiring some simple config tweaks. It's just a 5 minutes of work. Tweaking the config to addjust more realistic ROF will be the first thing I'll do after realising it's not there.

[mr.g-c 6]

It really improoves the game (realism, immersion etc.), yet requiring some simple config tweaks. It's just a 5 minutes of work. Tweaking the config to addjust more realistic ROF will be the first thing I'll do after realising it's not there.

I agree! Even though its not just 5mins of work, but rather some hours with tweaking and testing.

Still this is a strong must-have when claiming to be a realistic game and especially when you want to simulate Suppression-Effects.

[Second 0]

That sounds like a novel idea to me and would be seriously awesome. Though considering an APC 400m away might be a bit exaggerated. AI machine gunners could, for example, rely on assistant gunners close by who are carrying ammo. Knowing there is a team mate close by who is carrying extra ammo, the AI could be much more liberal with suppressive fire.

It indeed would be nice if AI would understand that okay i have still 80% of ammo left [this including additional ammo from ammo bearers within squad]. Time to burn some powder.

Then: Okay i now have 50% of shots left... Time to start become more careful with burning powder.

And next: I have less than 20% of shots left. Just accurate single shots from now on at "clearly" visible targets.

And finally: I have one mag left (or 30-40 bullets in belt)... This is only for emergency situations.

This has quite deal to do with volume of fire which one can deliver and upkeep. This combined with suppressive effects. Morale tied to these both. Hmm... Gets interesting. Then again ArmA2 will remain as sniper paradise (=not enough cover&concealment) so level off ammo probably won't have much effect to outcome of battle as troops generally can't empty even their first mag before getting killed (if shooting accuracy of AI isn't dropped too low).

[mr.g-c 6]

It indeed would be nice if AI would understand that okay i have still 80% of ammo left [this including additional ammo from ammo bearers within squad]. Time to burn some powder.

Then: Okay i now have 50% of shots left... Time to start become more careful with burning powder.

And next: I have less than 20% of shots left. Just accurate single shots from now on at "clearly" visible targets.

And finally: I have one mag left (or 30-40 bullets in belt)... This is only for emergency situations.

This has quite deal to do with volume of fire which one can deliver and upkeep. This combined with suppressive effects. Morale tied to these both. Hmm... Gets interesting. Then again ArmA2 will remain as sniper paradise (=not enough cover&concealment) so level off ammo probably won't have much effect to outcome of battle as troops generally can't empty even their first mag before getting killed (if shooting accuracy of AI isn't dropped too low).

This would be simply amazing and we should at least remember this for Arma2 later, when it has nice scripting and maybe some cool FSM editing stuff/commands available....

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Whatever the solution is, desired behaviour of AI should be:

- If xx% of ammo (per ammo type, each ammo type treated seperately, the first threshold matters) is left over, stop continue attack if no rearm is "near".

Seek and call for Ammo in zz metres

- Start to retreat if ammo <yy% (YY<XX)

- run away if ammo = 0 :D

[CarlGustaffa 4]

Awesome yes. But let's get the basics in first. If I report 'out of ammo' to my AI leader, he will tell me to rearm at a dead enemy. I'd really like to be able to ream at my assistant gunner or ammo bearer (using ACE), and that he actually puts some ammo on the ground.

[S!fkaIaC 10]

and that he actually puts some ammo on the ground.

It is obvious that you deal to long with OFP/ArmA :D

A decent inventory management would to the job.

You simply declare a truck/APC/box/building as rearm point and AI/AI commander should be able to make use of it.

If I am right, the M3Ax CFV is the "ammobox" of the squad, not the troop carrier any more. Extra ammo + AT weapons are stored there.

In crCTI it works already quite good, infantry and vehicles going to rearm/repair vehicles. But you can also define a peace of fence as a rearm point.

The missing thing IMHO are some definable thresholds so that "ammo low" etc is triggering the right action.

[CarlGustaffa 4]

It's not that simple when you play someone elses mission ;) Also I'm not always the commander anyway to give orders. Without a builtin system for this it becomes a scripted nightmare for addon makers. See how many 'assistants' and ammo bearers there is in ACE that can't do their job.