Will ArmA 2 support FreeTrack?!

[Hyp3rdyn3 10]

TrackIR is a six axis joystick. Arguing that TrackIR exclusivity is OK is no different to arguing that, say, Saitek joystick exclusivity is OK. Assuming this were the case, just because Saitek put effort into producing their own API and convincing developers to exclusively support it in favor of open standards like DirectInput does not make it any more justifiable.

FSX does not officially support TrackIR, yet it has TrackIR support by way of its own special API called SimConnect that can be used to get and set a whole bunch of simulation parameters, including the view. This means anyone can use it with whatever head tracking program they have. FSX obviously cannot claim to have TrackIR support so cannot use it for promotional purposes but it hardly needs to, being the juggernaut that it is. On the other hand ArmA may squeeze out a few more sales with 'official TrackIR support' slapped on the box.

The contractual limitations that cover this particular six axis joystick are unprecedented for a game controller. ED showed it puts pressure on developers to restrict functionality to ensure exclusivity and to closely moderate forums to limit any bad vibes directed towards it. If a developer doesn't like this the only option would be to reject the terms of the contract, remove the TrackIR API and use an alternative. It would be unlikely that NP would boycott an alternative API if the game is popular enough but it seems most developers are unprepared to take this risk.

DirectInput has a device type specifically intended for head tracking devices:

'DI8DEVTYPE1STPERSON_SIXDOF

Device with six degrees of freedom; that is, three lateral axes and three rotational axes.'

http://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/bb219639(VS.85).aspx

With this, the game could easily search for joystick devices that match DI8DEVTYPE1STPERSON_SIXDOF and automatically assign the first one it finds to view control. This would probably be easier than using custom APIs and would ensure everyone can come to the party.

[kegetys 2]

With this, the game could easily search for joystick devices that match DI8DEVTYPE1STPERSON_SIXDOF and automatically assign the first one it finds to view control. This would probably be easier than using custom APIs and would ensure everyone can come to the party.

Actually I think in ArmA already you can bind joystick axes into the "TrackIR" look axes. So any tracking system that would appear as a standard DirectInput/HID joystick should work (dunno if FreeTrack can do this currently). That is assuming the ArmA joystick code has finally been fixed to support more than one joystick...

[S!fkaIaC 10]

Are you sure that such a contract exists, or are you just speculating?

Speculating, but it is necessary to know before making a possibly useless attempt to get it right for ArmA2 for Freetrack.

[bionic 10]

Actually I think in ArmA already you can bind joystick axes into the "TrackIR" look axes. So any tracking system that would appear as a standard DirectInput/HID joystick should work (dunno if FreeTrack can do this currently). That is assuming the ArmA joystick code has finally been fixed to support more than one joystick...

I know to little about this but i think there is something called PPJOY you can use with Free Track do you mean something like this?

http://www.free-track.net/fichiers/PPJoy.pdf

Edit: I read that ppjoy wouldn´t work on Vista and Win 7 64bit so ppjoy would not be an option:(

Edited May 7, 2009 by bionic

[Squint 0]

Rest assured, official support means a contract between two parties. There are too many legal and financial matters at stake to believe otherwise. If FreeTrack wants official support, they would need a contract with BIS. BIS, however, is under no obligation to entertain any company or group's appeal for support, much less sign with them.

BIS will not come forward with an official word on FreeTrack until FreeTrack is signed with them. As Placebo said, it is on FreeTrack to provide whatever BIS requires of them, including liability for their software.

[Bad Pilot 0]

I've added a poll in the arma2 general forum. if u use headtracking, plz vote.

My opinion is that NaturalPoint should go to hell if they want exclusivity in game support. It could be a deal breaker for me - ArmA is great but holding me hostage is not going to work out well for the hostage-taker.

See sig :D

Edited May 7, 2009 by Mr Fenix
accidentally put it in arma2 forum instead of arma1 grr

[Jorge.PT 10]

Rest assured, official support means a contract between two parties. There are too many legal and financial matters at stake to believe otherwise. If FreeTrack wants official support, they would need a contract with BIS. BIS, however, is under no obligation to entertain any company or group's appeal for support, much less sign with them.

BIS will not come forward with an official word on FreeTrack until FreeTrack is signed with them. As Placebo said, it is on FreeTrack to provide whatever BIS requires of them, including liability for their software.

I don't care if it's official my dear Squint, I just want support for my free software and 30€ webcam.

[Statikzx 0]

I don't care if it's official ** **** *****, I just want support for my free software and 30€ webcam.

I agree 100% and would like to show my support for ALL camps. Personally, I like the DIY part and enjoy using the fruits of my labor.

P.S. Quote edited to remove individualization.

[LJF 0]

I've just built a FreeTrack setup, it works ... OK. Does anyone use any filters over the lens of their webcams? Mine freaks out when there is any light and my monitor makes the sun look dim so that isn't good for it either (have to turn it down to 17% brightness before it actually works). The times it has worked it's been brilliant, although a little blocky like there is low FPS.

... sry, a bit off topic.

I really do hope I can still use my (cardboard :D) headset for A2 though.

[andersson 285]

So you want official support for a DIY kit..?

[Squint 0]

I don't care if it's official my dear Squint, I just want support for my free software and 30€ webcam.

I understand this. You and others have made it very clear. I am trying to explain why you might not get this support, official or otherwise.

"Support" entails more than just nodding and agreeing to put the API in. There is the professional side to it; support means accountability, liability. FreeTrack does not have a professional presence. By "professional," I don't mean that their software doesn't work, or is made poorly. It simply means that FreeTrack is not a company, and that makes their offering unattractive to actual registered companies such as BIS. With half of Free Track functionality relying upon hardware that is made by the end user, you find yourself in a minefield of liability. You simply cannot support a DIY job.

I said this in earlier posts which were dismissed because it was me posting them, but the best chance FreeTrack has of getting official support is to become something it's not, which would defeat the purpose of FreeTrack in the first place. It's not impossible, even now, but you have to look at it from BIS's perspective and understand why they might be reluctant to say that they're bringing FreeTrack on board.

[Jorge.PT 10]

But Squint, free track is not a DIY, it's a software that as a licence and does the interface between arma and my tracking devise (thats DIY).

When you talk about "support" your are putting it again in terms of something that's official and between 2 companies. But you are forgetting that free track is released under GNU license and it's a open source, all that BI as to do is incorporate free track API or release a patch that allows us to use it.

Edited May 8, 2009 by Jorge.PT
typos

[Hyp3rdyn3 10]

And you can also use TrackIR stuff in which case there is no DIY at all.

DirectInput has a standard software disclaimer with no warranty/liability/support/fitness but this has not limited its widespread use. The best industry standards are the open non-commercial ones.

[bravo 6 0]

I just think if the FreeTrack works for ArmA2 it is great!

I don't agree that BIS have to waste time in order to make FreeTrack compatible if somehow something does not work properly.

Edited May 8, 2009 by bravo 6
typo

[Jorge.PT 10]

I don't agree that BIS have to waste time in order to make FreeTrack compatible if somehow something does not work properly.

But they don't have to waste time to make it compatible. The code is done, they just have to add it.

[bravo 6 0]

well if so, i see no reason why not to do it.

I would think as one of the tools that BIS already released for free, but in this case i wouldn't expect any release for improvements, in FreeTrack concern.

The problem, maybe, is what if they have to make it better for ArmA2, what if they have to Support it... in that case i completely disagree that the have obligation to improve if the case recalls.

[EDcase 87]

Not to hijack the thread but it would be great if ArmAII could support this:http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_vr920.html

Not very hires at 1024x768 but this is where the future really is...

[Jorge.PT 10]

Not to hijack the thread but it would be great if ArmAII could support this:http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_vr920.html

Not very hires at 1024x768 but this is where the future really is...

I remember to try a thing like that when I was young, with doom... that's not new technology.

[EDcase 87]

I never said it was new tech but its the first time a VR headset has been available with head tracking aimed at consumer level (cheap)

Edited May 8, 2009 by EDcase

[Jorge.PT 10]

I never said it was new tech but its the first time a VR headset has been available with head tracking aimed at consumer level (cheap)

Sorry then.

[MamiyaOtaru 1]

Not to hijack the thread but it would be great if ArmAII could support this:http://www.vuzix.com/iwear/products_vr920.html

Not very hires at 1024x768

It's worse than you think. "Twin high-resolution 640x480 (920,000 pixels) LCD displays"

The 1024x768 appears to be the max resolution supported on the input signal, but whatever you feed it, it won't display more than 640*480, as that's all it has.

[ndepal 10]

hey guys

i was of course rather disappointed to hear about freetrack not being usable in the future, since i was really excited about this and wanted to build one for myself.

i was just thinking how this problem could be circumvented and I had an idea. i have no experience or knowledge in programing, so this might not be at all possible. i was thinking that maybe a program could be written, which takes the videofeed and processes ist, outputting the data that the TrackIR Device sends to the TrackIR software. you could then have that program running at the same time as the TrackIR software, which would think that you are actually using TrackIR hardware. that way there would be no compatilility issues and you could play any game with TrackIR support with your DIY-rig.

what do you guys think? does this have any chance of working?

[mr.g-c 6]

No idea here too to be honest. But for Black-Shark they made a "hack" for this so that Free-Track works again, however i have no clue what they did changed there.

I stick to the base motto "Nothing is impossible" here.... ;p

[ndepal 10]

i know that they tried sth with a hack or whatever but thats not all that satisfactory. as far as i know it took quite a while untill FreeTrack was finally supported and when it was it was onld 3DOF...

if my idea worked then you wouldnt need freetrack anymore at all...

[maddogx 13]

hey guys

i was of course rather disappointed to hear about freetrack not being usable in the future, since i was really excited about this and wanted to build one for myself.

i was just thinking how this problem could be circumvented and I had an idea. i have no experience or knowledge in programing, so this might not be at all possible. i was thinking that maybe a program could be written, which takes the videofeed and processes ist, outputting the data that the TrackIR Device sends to the TrackIR software. you could then have that program running at the same time as the TrackIR software, which would think that you are actually using TrackIR hardware. that way there would be no compatilility issues and you could play any game with TrackIR support with your DIY-rig.

what do you guys think? does this have any chance of working?

Even if that worked, you would still need the actual TrackIR in the first place before you can "hijack" the signal... I believe the point of a DIY rig is not having to buy the original TrackIR.