Arma 2 like Project Reality?

[evilnate 0]

That is true. I play PR. It is REALLY realistic. Especially when you're in PRT "Project Reality Tournaments" The matches go on for about 2-3 hours.

So, I mean you can't have regular Vanilla play in ArmA2, ArmA2 should have penalties for many things. Such as a penalty if you kill a civvi, penalty if you shoot member obviously, and the Kits are the best thing of Project Reality. How you cannot have a random soldier get in a chopper.

So therefore if in ArmA 2, you are a normal infantry, and can fly a chopper. There is that extreme lack of realism.

The very first coop mission I ever made for arma had civilian death penalties.

The cool thing about the arma series is that you can do almost anything you want without a programing degree.

[Litos 10]

well if there are no borders players can just run off wherever. It'd be a little weird. Besides, there need to be some kind of bases, checkpoints, spawn points..?

[privateguba 0]

If you want them you can set them. But it's a waste of the engine IMO.

If I need to reinforce barriers and limits to the players, I wouldn't want to play with them.

From what I checked, easy, close to the action respawns and imediate revives don't encourage realistic teamplay.

[nodunit 397]

Up to the mission maker.

[Red_Barron 0]

If I need to reinforce barriers and limits to the players, I wouldn't want to play with them.

Barriers and limits can be very useful to a mission maker, and can make an okay mission into an excellent mission. Barriers and Limits give a mission focus.

From what I checked, easy, close to the action respawns and imediate revives don't encourage realistic teamplay.

This is in fact a great example of a good limit. A mission that does not have re-spawn can help to reinforce team play, and is in fact a limit. After all, having only one life in a mission is a huge limit. Under the right circumstances, it could be almost impossible to complete a mission assuming the group doesn't work together and all have one life. On the other hand, if the mission didn't have limits, and therefore unlimited re-spawn, the same group could eventually complete the mission (all dependent on what the objectives are of course).

If you want them you can set them. But it's a waste of the engine IMO.

The openness of the engine is awesome, but the ability to implement almost limitless ways to place barriers and limits in a mission can focus the mission like a laser beam, and potentially make a mission more enjoyable. Of course limits can ruin a mission too. The engine gives us so many tools to work with. It is up to the mission designer to implement them in a positive fashion.

[privateguba 0]

Yeah, I agree completely.

I'm a hipocrite anyway.

Never played MP, never had the connection. But I aways play sp as realisticaly as the AI allows.

With that shameful note I'm otahere.

[Squint 0]

So, I mean you can't have regular Vanilla play in ArmA2, ArmA2 should have penalties for many things. Such as a penalty if you kill a civvi, penalty if you shoot member obviously, and the Kits are the best thing of Project Reality. How you cannot have a random soldier get in a chopper.

So therefore if in ArmA 2, you are a normal infantry, and can fly a chopper. There is that extreme lack of realism.

Everything you've mentioned here can be incorporated into a mission via scripting. By default, however, it's open to anything, because BIS cannot guess at what sort of mission you might want to make. It is better to have a million possibilities and use one than to have one possibility but want a million.

[whisper 0]

well if there are no borders players can just run off wherever. It'd be a little weird. Besides, there need to be some kind of bases, checkpoints, spawn points..?

Again and again, it's up to the mission maker. Who can do whatever he feels like.

Need borders for your mission and limiting players movement? No problem.

Need bases, respawn point? No problem

Need no respawn? No problem

Need to play on the whole island? (Btw Warfare mode takes place on the whole island, fyi) No problem

Want to make a CTF? DO IT!

Want to replicate PR gameplay system? DO IT!

Want to make an objectived Attack/Defense ala Ennemy Territory? DO IT!

It's the motto since OFP : you're free.

I knew it would be hard for some to get when coming from conventionnal shooters :)

Once and for all : there is no fixed gameplay in ArmA

[=wfl= sgt bilko 10]

Well that's really the main difference between ArmA and PRM.

PRM is a mod built on a game engine that really isn't the most mod friendly in the world when it comes to gameplay tweaks, while ArmA is sort of a mod on it's own highly moddable game engine.

Considering what the PRM Devs team have to work with, I'd say they come a long way and improved the gameplay to something that is quite different from arcadic vBF2.

The concept for PRM and ArmA is not the same and user defined mission is afaik impossible in BF2 engine. So it's hard to compare the two.

[dunedain 48]

privateguba, How can you say so much negative things about a game you never played, only arguing with vids, are you omnicient or something ? :confused:

About mission making, the big issue is not what we can do with this engine but what is done.

I'm sure and it has been demonstrated here, that it's possible to do missions/gamemodes well framed which exhort teamplay in Arma like PR does, but it isn't at all what we can see online.

The best would that Bis improves pvp with Arma2, except for "join in progress", they didn't change much things since Ofp ...

This community is full of talented modders, it's a fact, but personnaly i buy a game not an engine, so i would love to see something polished with Arma2, since i'll buy this game for its pvp/coop part. :)

I don't really understand what occur with Arma, on Ofp i could play in an evening bunch of fun maps "nogova virus, theyhunger", CTF maps "hexenkessel, TNT maps" and a massive amount of coops, but with Arma it's only private games and tacticless domination/evolution servers full of lonewolves ...

Edited May 11, 2009 by dunedain

[Litos 10]

Again and again, it's up to the mission maker. Who can do whatever he feels like.

Need borders for your mission and limiting players movement? No problem.

Need bases, respawn point? No problem

Need no respawn? No problem

Need to play on the whole island? (Btw Warfare mode takes place on the whole island, fyi) No problem

Want to make a CTF? DO IT!

Want to replicate PR gameplay system? DO IT!

Want to make an objectived Attack/Defense ala Ennemy Territory? DO IT!

It's the motto since OFP : you're free.

I knew it would be hard for some to get when coming from conventionnal shooters :)

Once and for all : there is no fixed gameplay in ArmA

Alright, thanks for clearing that up. Cheers

[TCEd 0]

As the Chairman of a BF2/PR Tournament & the Admin of an Arma Tournament, I can definitely speak for both sides of the topic.

When speaking to the PR player and seeing PR from his perspective, Arma is like PR without the BF2 limitations or better, what the BF2 engine cannot do, the Arma engine can. Keep in mind that what the PR Dev's have done is quite amazing, to take an Arcade focused game like BF2 and make it more real, the only problem is the BF2 engine only goes so far. Yes PR is the Best/Most popular mod for BF2 & rightly so, but it has limitation.

Those working on the mod had to do some incredible things with BF2 to get it were it's at, but that's really as far as it can go. Our community loves playing PR & what the love about it is the realistic aspects & greater challenge of the mod over vanilla BF2.

To put in terms the PR player can understand, Arma is like PR on steroids, your no longer held back by the limitations of the engine, you want to air lift armor to the front, you can in Arma, you want to have a dynamic campaign with Infantry, Air, Armor, Logistics, ect... you can in Arma, in a much larger scale.

And all this gets a super burst of energy when ARMA2 comes out, which will put the GFX & other features right up there with Crysis & other games known for ingame GFX (Arma suffered a bit in this area, while it dominated in content & user ability, in lacked in overall look & feel).

Also keep in mind that while it's not mentioned as much, BF2 even with PR, is still an Arcade type game, fast pace (of course PR slowed that down to make it more real) even the ingame GFX are more arcadish. Arma, ARMA2 & OFP2 are simulators. What does that mean to the BF2/PR player? You may have to drive to a location instead of magic transportation. You wont have a floating cross hair. You will get killed a lot more because the ingame physics are so accurate. You may not like the way the character moves and turns at first, because your simulating real life movement, not arcade movement which is not realistic.

PR is a great mod for those who enjoy that venue. Same with ARMA2, it's a different mind set, yes they are similar in lots of ways, but the PR player, if he truly enjoys the "reality" portion, will appreciate ARMA2 & enjoy it a great deal. But I warn you as someone who experienced this, when you really fall in love with Arma, PR just wont be the same ever again. This of course goes back to limitations of the games engine.

Enjoy!

Edited May 12, 2009 by TCEd

[nodunit 397]

Well said. *applause* One thing I would like to add on the movement. In both BF2 and PR are generous with their character/gun to wall physics. You can go prone and have your feet sticking out (which has lead to many complaints of wall hacks) As will your gun.

In Arma1 and 2 however if you go prone you (atleast generally) won't clip, the game will force you into a position in which your character isn't sticking through the wall.

If you try going into a doorway sideways with your weapon out you will likely be unable to do so since the weapon has collision geometry of its own and will thus prevent you from going through unless you go in the "right way".

It was Something that several players seemed confused about so I just wanted to address that here.

Edited May 12, 2009 by NodUnit

[sparks50 0]

Yes, most these problems could have been solved without clipping, if BI made it so that the weapon is raised when you are too close to something, avoiding collision and giving you freedom to move in tight spaces. I hope this will be one of the included Arma 2 improvements, because currently moving indoors in Arma is a huge pain.

Sorry about the Offtopic there :)

[White_Hat 0]

I like the teamplay enforcing gameplay mechanics in PR!

Teamplay on public PR servers is waaaaaayyyyy better than on public arma servers. So i guess my ideal game would be the graphics and wast environment of ArmA with the gameplay mechanics of PR.

[maddogx 13]

I like the teamplay enforcing gameplay mechanics in PR!

Could you describe those for us? I'm interested because I'd like to think that something like that could be adapted for Arma 2 missions.

[whisper 0]

Don't know about PR, but for a very good teamplay enforcing gameplay, I would point at Ennemy Territory:Quake Wars.

[nodunit 397]

Could you describe those for us? I'm interested because I'd like to think that something like that could be adapted for Arma 2 missions.

Kit limiting is one of them, people aren't free to go have most of their team as specops, snipers or one particular kit. The amount of special kits issued are limited to how many people are playing (check the manual for more info on that).

To use a vehicle you require atleast to people like in OFP-Arma2, armor and APC's need a driver and gunner.

In order to use armor and special equipment you need crewman kits and if dual/tri operated everyone needs to be in the same squad or death comes swiftly.

You also cannot request any special kits unless you are in a squad (if you switch squads you will need to wait a minute or two). Squad leaders can only carry squad leader kit if they have 2 others in their squad.

Squad leaders (with SL kit) can place rally points (temporary spawns that can easily be destroyed) but only if 2 other squad members are nearby, you can also only place one at a time.

Certain kits also have certain items, for example in construction medics and squad leaders do not have shovels

(squad leader assigns a build order, building of that type comes up and people with shovels are needed to finish building it.)

One of the most important buildings would be the Firebase aka Forward Operating Base. But to build it you need two large crates dropped by either a logistic truck or by a pilot from a transport helo (1 at a time in this case).

All in all there is alot of "you can only do this is someone does this".

Oh and some other things such as ATand AA kits having only 1 missile or rocket so it's not wise to go solo (especially because have to wait 5 minutes to get another kit once to get the first). It also takes alot of time to set these up, snipers work better with spotters and someone to watch their backs (no claymore or anything like that).

There is also the bleeding factor, if shot or wounded somehow (to an extent) you will start bleeding, all army's have field dressing to give 25% health back so on the first bleed it's usually fine (snipers, medics and SL's have 3 or 4 of these). But you're out you're out, after enough bleeding you'll start to black out which means you are going to die very soon..so you'll want a medic nearby or to find one before that happens.

Another vehicle factor is that they don't re-spawn 30 or so seconds later. The simplest of vehicles take 5 minutes, and the most (armor, aircraft) take up to 30 minutes..Tack in that some vehicles are more fragile, especially aircraft. (No taking an AT round and easily surviving like in BF2). even concentrated fire can bring you down,so you don't want to be careless.

Also the idea of dieing isn't so great since there is no 'quick respawn' like in BF2. Default is 30..or 40 seconds, something like that..maybe 60..anyway you can suffer penalties, which will up the time. Tonight as a civilian on the insurgents I had a 260 respawn timer, not quite sure how that happened (they always seem to have high time).

Edited May 13, 2009 by NodUnit

[White_Hat 0]

Kit limiting is one of them, people aren't free to go have most of their team as specops, snipers or one particular kit. The amount of special kits issued are limited to how many people are playing (check the manual for more info on that).

To use a vehicle you require atleast to people like in OFP-Arma2, armor and APC's need a driver and gunner.

In order to use armor and special equipment you need crewman kits and if dual/tri operated everyone needs to be in the same squad or death comes swiftly.

You also cannot request any special kits unless you are in a squad (if you switch squads you will need to wait a minute or two). Squad leaders can only carry squad leader kit if they have 2 others in their squad.

Squad leaders (with SL kit) can place rally points (temporary spawns that can easily be destroyed) but only if 2 other squad members are nearby, you can also only place one at a time.

Certain kits also have certain items, for example in construction medics and squad leaders do not have shovels

(squad leader assigns a build order, building of that type comes up and people with shovels are needed to finish building it.)

One of the most important buildings would be the Firebase aka Forward Operating Base. But to build it you need two large crates dropped by either a logistic truck or by a pilot from a transport helo (1 at a time in this case).

All in all there is alot of "you can only do this is someone does this".

Oh and some other things such as ATand AA kits having only 1 missile or rocket so it's not wise to go solo (especially because have to wait 5 minutes to get another kit once to get the first). It also takes alot of time to set these up, snipers work better with spotters and someone to watch their backs (no claymore or anything like that).

There is also the bleeding factor, if shot or wounded somehow (to an extent) you will start bleeding, all army's have field dressing to give 25% health back so on the first bleed it's usually fine (snipers, medics and SL's have 3 or 4 of these). But you're out you're out, after enough bleeding you'll start to black out which means you are going to die very soon..so you'll want a medic nearby or to find one before that happens.

Another vehicle factor is that they don't re-spawn 30 or so seconds later. The simplest of vehicles take 5 minutes, and the most (armor, aircraft) take up to 30 minutes..Tack in that some vehicles are more fragile, especially aircraft. (No taking an AT round and easily surviving like in BF2). even concentrated fire can bring you down,so you don't want to be careless.

Also the idea of dieing isn't so great since there is no 'quick respawn' like in BF2. Default is 30..or 40 seconds, something like that..maybe 60..anyway you can suffer penalties, which will up the time. Tonight as a civilian on the insurgents I had a 260 respawn timer, not quite sure how that happened (they always seem to have high time).

That sums it up!

The real advantage of restrictive gameplay mechanics like in PR is that the a**hats despise them and don´t play PR! :D

I wish developers of tactical would look into PR and learn from them!

[whisper 0]

ARG!

This is not in ArmA II devs hand, it's in the mission makers (ie anyone buying the game) hands.

In these matters, ArmAII is a sandbox in which you can do whatever you feel like, gameplay wise.

Please don't try to push this task on BI, they have more important things to do! :) (tackling bugs, performance work, campaign design, animation perfecting, physics, AI)

[dr_eyeball 16]

Project Reality mod didn't simply receive the Mod of the Year 2008 award (and 2 times runner up) without good reason.

The mod is known for it's well designed game play concepts. A few people here started trying to compare engine capabilities, which is pointless. So focus on the game play/mode concepts only.

I don't think you can call it "realistic" (it's just better than the average game), plus it's the teamwork requirements that make it challenging. It's something you can play on a nightly basis, while remaining fun without getting stale quickly.

The v0.85 PDF Manual (3mb) pretty much covers all the game modes and capabilities.

[.kju 3244]

So why is there no PR MOD / game modes in ArmA?

Maybe as most people here bash all non 100% realistic stuff?

Gameplay > realism. And realism at times is best gameplay.

Realism by itself is crap. Even more as you cannot portray perfect realism.

Hope ppl to pick up in A2 and make a PR MOD / game mode.

[nodunit 397]

wrong thread.

[TCEd 0]

The thing to keep in mind about PR is that it's on an arcade engine, so no matter how much they try to make it realistic, the engine will only allow them so much room. It's fun for sure, but it appeals to a different style gamer than Arma. I play both in two different tournaments, those who play PR as their main game, enjoy playing Arma because of the step up in realism and ingame freedom. The Arma gamers who have played PR enjoy the arcade feel of the mod.

It would be good to see mission makers build a cool mod that is a decent blend, one that utilizes the greatly expanded usage of the ARMA2 engine & incorporates the highly popular multiplayer aspects of PR.

But here's the key to that being a success, it will take players who play both and understand both & know the differences and what makes each popular among online gamers, then you would have an awesome mod, one that would draw players from both arena's.

Let me know when you guys get it done & I'll download it. :D

[Litos 10]

Many people assume that realism consists only of being shot after 3 bullets, not being able to run for more than 30 seconds, etc. I personally think it's that, but also the appearance of the game, and the animations. Anything from recharging to looking down at your watch (instead of pressing O to pop it up) is realism.

Just my 2 cents.