31st NORMANDY MOD - WW2 Â -BETA RELEASE

[oldbear 390]

I am quite understanding your point on the map subject, and I must add I am quite astonished about the work you have done ... having myself get near nervous breakdown trying to build my own map  

about wheat fields : of course, there are wheat fields, but more often barley and rye fields ... Normandy Peninsula or "Cotentin" is not Brie or Beauce areas with large wheat fields, that's what I was meaning. Because this area is an area of very small farms, and during the 40' era there were still in an self-sustaining mode concerning cereals culture.

about hedgerows : I believe it's not possible to get a decent hedgerow ground simulation in ArmA due to games limitations, as it's not possible to have small ditches. But perhaps it will be possible to build a standalone hedgerow model as there are wall models. A hedgerow is a very clean thing ... with edges pruned. Here is an interesting source on hedgerow fight in Normandy from

Combat Lessons N°4 : Cross Section of Typical Normandy Hedgerow.

[Aqu 0]

I made a quick test with a hedgerow model. (pic)

It is 2m high (6.5 ft), 2-3m wide (at the base). The ditches are 0.3-0.5m deep (the bottom goes bit under the ground level at the pic). The model goes still 5m wider than the ditch centers so that the ditches wouldn't seem to go above the ground level. This piece is 5-7m long, but in this 2 pieces are put in line partly overlapping (when put in line, one line piece occupies c 5m section even it is technically 7m)

To make it look better some plants and small trees should be placed on it. I tryed to use proxies, but the problem is that they are too big (there seems to be some scale issue? = plants seem bigger in O2 than in game).

This size is just about the limit that only after some 'jogging' against the wall you are able to climb it, but you really have to some work for it. With tanks...not a chance. You cannot see over it from the ground level and especially if it has vegetation on it, it will be hard from a vehicle too.

[ArmaVidz 0]

... it's not possible to have small ditches.

It is possible. To do this a mapmaker would have to paint ditches into the heightmap in a slightly darker color than the ditches surrounding. Not an easy task - but it is possible.

[MehMan 0]

Not with a 75m grid cell. It's quite impossible to do it when points are 75m apart...

[rip31st 98]

I made a quick test with a hedgerow model. (pic)

It is 2m high (6.5 ft), 2-3m wide (at the base). The ditches are 0.3-0.5m deep (the bottom goes bit under the ground level at the pic). The model goes still 5m wider than the ditch centers so that the ditches wouldn't seem to go above the ground level. This piece is 5-7m long, but in this 2 pieces are put in line partly overlapping (when put in line, one line piece occupies c 5m section even it is technically 7m)

To make it look better some plants and small trees should be placed on it. I tryed to use proxies, but the problem is that they are too big (there seems to be some scale issue? = plants seem bigger in O2 than in game).

This size is just about the limit that only after some 'jogging' against the wall you are able to climb it, but you really have to some work for it. With tanks...not a chance. You cannot see over it from the ground level and especially if it has vegetation on it, it will be hard from a vehicle too.

That looks nice.

[oldbear 390]

This model looks great !

Of course, I believe we can't get too much objects added ... but it's a nice improvement if they can be placed on the map in some areas.

Edit : for those interested in maps and historical documents, here are 2 maps from Perry-Castaneda Library Map Collection - Texas University - Austin : D Days maps

- Omaha Beach-East

- Omaha Beach-West

I have also found a map on a Russian web site (Partizenskaia Baza) featuring terrain behind Omaha Beach in a simple way : Terrain inland from Omaha beach

[ht-57 0]

Thank you! great job thus far! Keep it coming,I can't get enough of the ww2 era!

This may have been mentioned before,My apologies if it is redundant. Can the speed in which the tanks turn be slowed down, or is that just the way the arma engine is?

I am fully aware that this mod is about playability not rivet counting,....But....

It would be awsome if someone could "skin" some of the models. Kinda like CMBB. I know two diffrent beasts. I can dream can't I?

anyway THANKS again!

[rip31st 98]

Thank you! great job thus far! Keep it coming,I can't get enough of the ww2 era!

This may have been mentioned before,My apologies if it is redundant. Can the speed in which the tanks turn be slowed down, or is that just the way the arma engine is?

  I am fully aware that this mod is about playability not rivet counting,....But....

 It would be awsome if someone could "skin"  some of the models. Kinda like CMBB. I know two diffrent beasts. I can dream can't I?

anyway THANKS again!

Tanks turning fast is a ArmA problem. I know, it's irritating when WWII tanks turn on a dime in like one second.

Yeah if there are talented artist out there that want to skin some of the tanks, they can inquire about it by sending me a PM. The current artist is slacking ( nudges enigma ).

[Aqu 0]

I made bit further testing after I got fond of the idea. Put some textures and added some vegetation from BIS examples. It can be made look quite good without too many faces. The earth wall section takes 100-200 faces and the vegetation maybe 200-1000 per bush/tree (depending on the size). Although I think it would be better to place the vegetation in Visitor as separate objects, because otherwise it doesn't move with wind.

It blocks the view to the other side very well and can hide big objects. Climbing the wall is so noisy and messy that once you get on the top there could be a whole army pointing you with a gun on the other side. (pic) 

[Enigma85 2]

The current artist is slacking ( nudges enigma ).

got stuff going on at the minute.

will get started when stuff has leveled out a bit

[rip31st 98]

I made bit further testing after I got fond of the idea. Put some textures and added some vegetation from BIS examples. It can be made look quite good without too many faces. The earth wall section takes 100-200 faces and the vegetation maybe 200-1000 per bush/tree (depending on the size). Although I think it would be better to place the vegetation in Visitor as separate objects, because otherwise it doesn't move with wind.

It blocks the view to the other side very well and can hide big objects. Climbing the wall is so noisy and messy that once you get on the top there could be a whole army pointing you with a gun on the other side. (pic) 

Those are very nice! Maybe add some downed trees and more greens to it. You could also do some trenches!

[oldbear 390]

Yes, it's really a good move !

It need only now to look more as a hedge with bushes and trees, because it's the secret of this feature. It looks like a hedge but in fact it's a wall.

Here an extract from Busting the Bocage:American Combined Arms Operations in France 6 June--31 July 1944

Quote[/b] ] For centuries, Norman farmers had followed the practice of enclosing the plots of their arable land, pastures as well as orchards, with thick hedgerows. The hedgerow country in the U.S. sector started about ten miles inland from the Normandy beaches and extended in a wide swath from Caumont on the American left to the western coast of the Cotentin Peninsula. The hedgerows are sturdy embankments, half earth, half hedge. At their base, they resemble dirt parapets and vary in thickness from one to four feet, with heights that range from three to fifteen feet. Growing out of this earthen wall is a hedge that consists of small trees and tangles of vines and brush. This vegetation has a thickness of between one to three feet and varies in height from three to fifteen feet. Originally intended to serve as fences to mark land boundaries, to keep in livestock, and to prevent the erosion of the the land by sea winds, the hedgerows surround each field, breaking the terrain into numerous walled enclosures. Because the fields are small, about 200 by 400 yards in size, and usually irregular in shape, the hedgerows are numerous and set in no logical pattern. Each field has an opening in the hedgerow that permits access for humans, livestock, and farm equipment. For passage to fields that are not adjacent to regular highways, numerous wagon trails run through the hedgerows.

The military features of the Bocage are obvious. The hedgerows divide the country into tiny compartments. The hedgerows in each field provide excellent cover and concealment to the defender and present a formidable obstacle to the attacker. Numerous adjoining fields can be organized to form a natural defensive position echeloned in depth. The thick vegetation provides excellent camouflage and limits the deployment of units. The hedgerows also restrict observation, making the effective use of heavy-caliber direct-fire weapons almost impossible and hampering the adjustment of artillery fire. Anyone occupying a high place that afforded good fields of observation and a clear view of the surrounding countryside would have a distinct advantage.

[rip31st 98]

Yes, it's really a good move !

It need only now to look more as a hedge with bushes and trees, because it's the secret of this feature. It looks like a hedge but in fact it's a wall.

Here an extract from Busting the Bocage:American Combined Arms Operations in France 6 June--31 July 1944

Quote[/b] ] For centuries, Norman farmers had followed the practice of enclosing the plots of their arable land, pastures as well as orchards, with thick hedgerows. The hedgerow country in the U.S. sector started about ten miles inland from the Normandy beaches and extended in a wide swath from Caumont on the American left to the western coast of the Cotentin Peninsula. The hedgerows are sturdy embankments, half earth, half hedge. At their base, they resemble dirt parapets and vary in thickness from one to four feet, with heights that range from three to fifteen feet. Growing out of this earthen wall is a hedge that consists of small trees and tangles of vines and brush. This vegetation has a thickness of between one to three feet and varies in height from three to fifteen feet. Originally intended to serve as fences to mark land boundaries, to keep in livestock, and to prevent the erosion of the the land by sea winds, the hedgerows surround each field, breaking the terrain into numerous walled enclosures. Because the fields are small, about 200 by 400 yards in size, and usually irregular in shape, the hedgerows are numerous and set in no logical pattern. Each field has an opening in the hedgerow that permits access for humans, livestock, and farm equipment. For passage to fields that are not adjacent to regular highways, numerous wagon trails run through the hedgerows.

The military features of the Bocage are obvious. The hedgerows divide the country into tiny compartments. The hedgerows in each field provide excellent cover and concealment to the defender and present a formidable obstacle to the attacker. Numerous adjoining fields can be organized to form a natural defensive position echeloned in depth. The thick vegetation provides excellent camouflage and limits the deployment of units. The hedgerows also restrict observation, making the effective use of heavy-caliber direct-fire weapons almost impossible and hampering the adjustment of artillery fire. Anyone occupying a high place that afforded good fields of observation and a clear view of the surrounding countryside would have a distinct advantage.

So I don't need to do hedgerows from Caumont north eh? YAY!

[oldbear 390]

There were hedges everywhere in the Cotentin peninsula and I believe you will spend all your life trying to put all hedges on the map  

There were places with no hedges or few or low hedges :

- in the bog/polders areas

- around Caen because it's an area of larger open fields

Along the West coast it was a mix of "bocage areas" - with hedges- and openfield areas without not so much hedges.

The fights around St Lo, known as the "Hedgerows battle", were intense because here the Germans had time to build up a defensive line using hedgerows as fortifications.

Hedges near St Mere l'Eglise (a copy /paste from an interesting study about Normandy landscapes ... in French, the green lines are the hedges !

[Aqu 0]

Good post about the nature and origin of the hedgerows Old Bear.

I remember playing a game years ago (I think it was 101st airborne or something) which featured the hedgerows quite well I think. Climbing over the 'walls' was slow and risky, but traveling the paths and finding those openings was like trying find a way in a maze.

About adding more plants to the walls... I agree that they need more plants than what I had put in the pic. But let me quote myself...

Quote[/b] ]

"I think it would be better to place the vegetation in Visitor as separate objects, because otherwise it doesn't move with wind".

That would be easier and also you could manage with maybe only 1 wall section! If you integrate the plants to the wall then you need several sections so that it doesn't start to look repetetive. In a nut shell...

Seperate plants on visitor

------------------------

+ need only few wall sections

+ Vegetation is truly unique and hedgerows are not copies

+ wind movement for plants

- when the wall section is breached/destroyed the plants remain floating in the air?

(-) can you even place plants over walls/buildings in visitor?

plants integrated into the wall

-----------------------------

+ no floating plants after destroyed/breached

+ easier to construct lines in visitor when not needing to place vegetation afterwards on it.

- more work to do for several wall sections

- each section needs several reso lods that it doesn't kill the fps in the bocage country (like the northern Sahrani forests)

- You cannot use the special shading flags etc used for plants (named properties in O2) (or can you?)

- No wind movement

So how to implement it needs some testing. I have no experience making maps so maybe somebody with both map making and model making skills could continue? *cough*, *cough* Rip?

P.S. I can send the WIP model I have made

[beton 2]

For the Hedgerows...

i think about three different parts (1,5,10 meters) and two corners should be enough. When you put plants on it you can change the apperance of the hedgerow. And by the way... isn´t there a kind of addon which makes plants destructable by tanks?

Aqu, this would be a great addition for mapping...

[rip31st 98]

Aqu - I will place them in visitor on the normandy map when you are done making them.  Or when you want to send them over for me to finish them up.

Beton has put together a nice smaller map that I will be adding to the mod when it's complete.  I will post some screenshots later.

-Bear - Good info.  I already placed 99% of the vegetation on the Penninsula.  - Crazy me!  I used similar maps to place them. What I do need to know is about these open field areas. Where they are at and what towns they are around. They must be mainly by the beach areas?

[frostwyrm333 1]

Nice looking developments, some towns even sound familiar from other FPS games.

[Aqu 0]

For the Hedgerows...

i think about three different parts (1,5,10 meters) and two corners should be enough. When you put plants on it you can change the apperance of the hedgerow. And by the way... isn´t there a kind of addon which makes plants destructable by tanks?

I don't know about that sort of add-on. Could be, but it doesn't remove the floating plant problem.

If you put the plants into the hedge section then you definately need more than one vegetation version. E.g the 5m straight part needs to be in several vegetation versions (some having only bushes, some having also a tree or two, etc). You cannot make them very much if you also plan to make the hedgerow in different lengths and shapes (e.g 2,5,10m straight and 90 degree corner,T cross and + cross). Actually the 10m section is too long, because if you destroy that one it creates a 10m hole in the line. The corner parts could be left out too if you use the straight parts in angles.

[rip31st 98]

I could make 8-10 versions of hedgerows to make it appear more random.

[oldbear 390]

I have found a rather modern map showing agricultural products in Normandy, but I believe you can use it as a base to build various areas on your map.

"Bocage" : area with fields producing hay surrounded by hedges, with here and there apple orchards.

"Grandes cultures" : areas with large ploughed fields, cereals/alfalfa/fallow, remains of hedges sometimes only lines of poplars.

"Polyculture et elevage" : areas with large fields and a mix of ploughed fields and pasture only remains of hedges here and there.

"Agglomeration" = Town

"Foret" = Forest

"Marais et Polders " : areas of marshes and semi-dried marshes, open areas along rivers, ditches along rectangular open fields.

"Maraichage et verger" : area with apple orchards and a mix of pastures and ploughed fields.

I will add that there are a lot of different features in Normandy landscapes, even a district called "Suisse Normande" = Normandy Switzerland south of Caen, it's a rather hilly place 30km south of Caen along the Orne river.

[rip31st 98]

looks good!

thx!

[beton 2]

For the Hedgerows...

i think about three different parts (1,5,10 meters) and two corners should be enough. When you put plants on it you can change the apperance of the hedgerow. And by the way... isn´t there a kind of addon which makes plants destructable by tanks?

I don't know about that sort of add-on. Could be, but it doesn't remove the floating plant problem.

If you put the plants into the hedge section then you definately need more than one vegetation version. E.g the 5m straight part needs to be in several vegetation versions (some having only bushes, some having also a tree or two, etc). You cannot make them very much if you also plan to make the hedgerow in different lengths and shapes (e.g 2,5,10m straight and 90 degree corner,T cross and + cross). Actually the 10m section is too long, because if you destroy that one it creates a 10m hole in the line. The corner parts could be left out too if you use the straight parts in angles.

Well, i was thinking of building just the earthwall and placing the plants afterwards in visitor. The height of the plants can be adjusted...i think Nicolas bell did the same in his Schmalfelden map. Just letting trees sink down in the ground.

Plants, at least trees, should be destructable by tanks or artillery. So if the earthwall ist destroyed, the plants should be aswell. The addon i meant was the Proper plants addon 1.0 which was released just a few days ago.

Concerning the big hole in the line, maybe you can just make small parts like one or two meters of length. They can be copied and pasted in visitor and put together to make longer parts. Its a bit more work when making a map but its the way to go around the Problem with the big holes.

Would be worth a try, i think

[rip31st 98]

Yes he is right they can be placed in Visitor after the fact.

Here's a little tid-bit for ya.  Still WIP.  Experimenting with larger models with built in trenches.

Pointe du Hoc WIP video clip #2.  

BTW I wrote "tenches" in the video, so don't even go there!  

[Waxbutter 6]

That looks great Rip31st !!

Pointe Du Hoc will be a tough area to assault with all the trenches and bunkers.

Thanks for all WIP vids and Pics :-)