Player models for girl gamers?

[gsleighter 0]

@Canukausiuka - Right now, more women are being shot at, shooting back, or dying in direct combat in the US Army than any war before. They're medics, truck drivers, supply personnel, mechanics, and they're all there outside the wire taking bullets and bombs. So to tell me that just because they're not in combat arms MOS's they're not involved in direct combat is a denial of the realities of modern warfare, and a disservice to every woman serving in Iraq or Afghanistan.

[xnodunitx 0]

Sage

<span style='font-size:10pt;line-height:100%'><span style='color:red'>(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST)</span></span>

sageing on my forums? it's more likely then you may think.

And of course females enjoy killing Bushmonkey, (possibly more then the males, I think they do, ever seen a catfight? Their so much more violent then guyfights) society may depict them as the "stay at home soft hearted gentle wife" type but they are humans and all of humanity have violent natures towards something, wether they admit it or not

[CameronMcDonald 146]

From those who haven't heard the Ivan Buchta interview - there won't be any female military characters, per se, for use ingame.

However, Ivan's answer was a bit contradictory in my opinion; if there are female civilian characters with standalone animations, but the whole gamut of animations haven't been done for females - what happens when a female civilian picks up a gun, whether if given via addweapon or if ordered to pick up a gun?

Does this mean that if the above scenario occurs the game will crash out, or we will get a The Thing-like Marian Quandt reaction? And will female civilians be unavailable in the stock editor to prevent such bugs from occurring?

Surely BIS must have considered this eventuality.

[Second 0]

I would advice those who try to play down women in military tone it down. There is no job in the military a fit woman could not do as well as most of the men. Tasks which require a lot of physical strength are the ones in which they can have the most difficulties, but these tasks are very rare according to my experience.

Sissi/recon and ever mighty PST (=antitank) do not take women as far as i can tell, if standarts havent' changed in last few years. These both training branches are pretty regular and big.

Reason is because of over 40-50 kilograms of stuff they are carrying regulary. It's something average woman body (back in particularry) just can't take, they lack alot of strenght from upper body compared to men (like 60% if i remember correct, in lower body i think it was only about 10%). This was explanation given to me at my time. Sure some bodybuilder could be different, but FDF isn't most flexible with these things.

Also i'd guess artillery isn't taking much women to handling guns as i've heard that even men's backs are in hard stress during service.

If you go read from

...

that clearly says that there is no such separation. It clearly says "Every job possible" for women.

If some unit categorically excludes women just because they are women, that is not following the official line of the military.

I saw many relatively weak men at the Anti-tank Company. I cannot understand how a fit woman could not fit to that group. There was no women in that Company while I was at that Brigade, though. The women I saw at the Armoured Brigade were at an Armoured Jaeger Company and I think some were at a tank company.

The biggest guy at the Anti-Tank Company was a bit crazy half-German who was carrying big weapons (PKM + APILAS and a bunch of other stuff...) but he was really strong and I would not put a woman or myself to carry the same amount of stuff. But most jobs in that Company are jobs which a woman can do as well.

Official line is what you told, but atleast when i served the real line of instructors (in my brigade) was what i told, and they do the picking, not feminists. And you know FDF already quite long has been agains that you'd call 'simputus', still it has been going on forever (there is official reality and real reality). And i believe this is case in most brigades still, i havent' met ranger (sissi or recon) or antitank trained woman, or heard about such.

Sure there might be some woman who has gone thru that training. I'm not saying its impossible.

Oh you can't have easy physical antitank training, as good antitank training includes all tasks in antitank platoon (be it ATGM or heavy recoiless rifle Musti). This eventually results in carrying heavy weights. Last 1/3 of training is bit different as some AT-trainees were sent to jaegercompanies forming AT-teams. Maybe armored brigade did things differently.

EDIT: Note also my underline in your quote. Weak men are usually stronger than average women, even if they don't run as much in 12 minutes running test. It's not about being fit, it's about muscles in back able to support back so that back wouldn't break.

Oh! this wasn't offtopic section, but ArmA2 section

[PuFu 4600]

From those who haven't heard the Ivan Buchta interview - there won't be any female military characters, per se, for use ingame.

However, Ivan's answer was a bit contradictory in my opinion; if there are female civilian characters with standalone animations, but the whole gamut of animations haven't been done for females - what happens when a female civilian picks up a gun, whether if given via addweapon or if ordered to pick up a gun?

Does this mean that if the above scenario occurs the game will crash out, or we will get a The Thing-like Marian Quandt reaction? And will female civilians be unavailable in the stock editor to prevent such bugs from occurring?

Surely BIS must have considered this eventuality.

I was about to ask the same thing....Even if the females are locked in the editor (in a small vid a saw featuring civilian women, they seem NOT to have Marian Quandt paralytic syndrome), someone will surely open those for use...And i fail to see why they would need other animations (maybe because of their body size) since, from what i have seen, they are using the same walk/run animations as any other male civilian....

[kavoven 4]

We had a debate about women joining the SEK and the GSG9 here in Germany, but the commanders of the units said that women simply can't get through the test because of their physical condition.

[baddo 0]

I can very well understand that if some women don't pass a physical test, then they don't pass it. But it should be the same for men and women. If they don't pass a test, they don't pass it. If they pass it, then fine, they can join.

A lot of comments here sound like "women can't do that because they just can't do that."

You shouldn't exclude people from a job based on some assumption like that their upper body strength is not enough. You need to measure that per each individual before you decide if they can join or not.

If the commanders of the units say "women can't pass the tests", well, there is an easy way to find out if they actually do or don't: let them do to the tests. Don't exclude them before they have gotten to show what they can do. If only 1 woman out of 10 women passes the test, compared to 9 men out of 10 men passes the test, then I think justice served, everyone happy, at least everyone got a chance to show what they can do.

[kavoven 4]

I didn't express myself well:

They're allowed to do the test and I think some indeed tried, but until there was no one who made it through.

[baddo 0]

Well, it's the right way to go, let them do the tests.

[max power 21]

Well, Ivan Buchta has now stated in an interview that there will be no female combatants in ArmA 2, citing that it would unnecessarily complicate development.

[rundll.exe 12]

Well, Ivan Buchta has now stated in an interview that there will be no female combatants in ArmA 2, citing that it would unnecessarily complicate development.

Hello Sherlock

Anyway, if its only ofr the animations (wich should be there lik e CameronMcDonald said) and the voices, I would be happy if they just take te male voice and put the pitch up etc. Hell you can even make OFP soldiers sound girly when you put it up all the way.

[max power 21]

Why did BIS put a "Amy" female voice in ArmA if there were no female faces for the game?

For mod makers, perhaps? Novelty?

Who knows.

EDIT: Platiff is a very smart person.

I speel god to.

[xnodunitx 0]

Why did BIS put a "Amy" female voice in ArmA if there were no female faces for the game?

For mod makers, perhaps? Novelty?

Who knows.

EDIT: Platiff is a very smart person.

Originally planned for the female news reporter shown in the first few video's but was later removed due to...who knows what.

@plaintiff1- I giggled

[danimalhanke 0]

There are a few female unit addons out there. look around.

[wipman 1]

Hi, in my opinion, it's a shame for the gamers, the equal rights and

from the proffit side, to don't have female character soldiers; it's

even pointless and stupid, from the commercial point of view.

I think that will be pimp and usefull to include a Female Units class

in the editor, if they don't gonna do a campaign that play with

female soldiers... at least allow the mission makers to select the

gender of the units that they want to allow the players to play with.

But at this dates... we can cry all what we want that BIS gonna

keep that stupid segregatory commercial policy that goes clearly

againist the proffit oportunities of the company, the recreation of

the USMC and the joy of the females that may want to play to this

game. For me it's pointless to left aside this wide range of potential

customers; stupid, pointless and a complete nonsense. Let's C ya

[zinc 0]

I agree, women spend many hours on games these days. It would be a shame not to have them represented in Arma2. I mean, it is the 21st Century ffs. It's like the old argument about having kids as part of the civillian population in Arma, you may as well remove the old gits as well then. God forbid that some old granny will accidentally get killed by a stray bullet or squashed by a tank.

I think excluding important details from a game makes for a shallow experience, especially common details which people are bound to eventually notice.

I don't see a problem with having women represented in-game, it would be nice maybe see an all-female clan whipping some male arses around here eventually (not in the literal sense lol).

[wamingo 1]

If female characters actually attract female gamers to games is unproven. I think it attracts morbid behavour if anything.

I'll admit it... I think women and kids, severed limbs, torture, execution and such, is generally detrimental to games outside of less serious games and scripted sequences.

I don't believe gender equality holds any bearing in games whatsoever and it's certainly not BIS's job to set or safe keep moral standards.

The "war is ugly" phrase used with OFP and ArmA has been taken far too literal by some. ArmA is entertainment long before it's a simulation, let alone ugly.

OFP was refered to as ugly mainly due to gameplay was harsh (one bullet one kill), and because civilians and friends were dying. It was not ugly because you had to do open wound surgery, listen to frightening screaming or other ugly things.

ArmA is about armed conflicts using military tactics and equipment and blah. It's not about war being ugly really. I think BIS would have gone down a more horror-like route if it was.

I think arma should be spared becoming a subject to the ethics questions derived from such items.

[celery 8]

I don't believe gender equality holds any bearing in games whatsoever and it's certainly not BIS's job to set or safe keep moral standards.

Is it your job then?

I wouldn't say dead women are any uglier than dead men, afterall they're called the fair sex.  

[max power 21]

I don't believe gender equality holds any bearing in games whatsoever and it's certainly not BIS's job to set or safe keep moral standards.

Is it your job then?

Is this to imply that it is noone's job to set or keep moral standards?

[wamingo 1]

I don't believe gender equality holds any bearing in games whatsoever and it's certainly not BIS's job to set or safe keep moral standards.

Is it your job then?

Is this to imply that it is noone's job to set or keep moral standards?

It's everyone's job if you want my answer, but what I meant was BIS should not be made responsible for taking equal rights, morals or otherwise to "new levels". I hope that says it better.

It was a response to wipman who said "it's a shame for equal rights".

And with arma being as it is - closer to reality than most games, thus making these things (women, kids, etc) very likely ethics bombs, should BIS bother?

The kids question was reignited by recently released Fallout 3 and there's an interesting gamasutra article with many competent comments here if you're interested:

http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=20908

All of this is very subjective of course, but I don't consider Fallout a serious game and therefore have no problem with either kids or women or lots of gore in that game. But I think it would probably bother me a bit in arma.

I for one certainly don't want arma to take a morbid route.

[max power 21]

Damn.. there are a lot of windbags on Gamasutra. There was so much garage-intellectual bullcrap in there that my head nearly exploded. If I have any lasting psychological or vision problems caused by reading those comments, I'll hold you responsible, wamingo.

Here's a teaser:

Quote[/b] ]

I think a 1-3 person team could have made a better game and let the natural recombinance of nouns and verbs exist unfettered. I think killing children is not something I would personally want to do, but I'm not about to say it "is" "right" or "wrong" or anything close to "censorship is a good thing" which is like three swear words in one sentence. I think a really wonderful thing about games can be the effect of allowing us to play outside of preconceived linguistics after playing many games which each have their own definitions of what "is" "right" and "wrong" you start to see how the world works as an arbitrary game design reinforced by collective hallucination.

This is an impressive jumble of large words- like a pile of 18th century silver cutlery and furniture in the middle of the floor- but it's total nonsense. It's a fantastic display of moral relativism. This young man should go back to exporting or whatever it is he does and leave psychology to the psychologists, and the English language to the people who know what words mean.

[mattxr 9]

There are 21 female generals, most of them one-star, in the US army.

Women make up 14% of the army's active-service strength of more than 500,000 soldiers.

Women are barred from combat roles but have been allowed in the last two decades to serve in a wide variety of other positions.

A little info here about it..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7730744.stm

[max power 21]

There are 21 female generals, most of them one-star, in the US army.

Women make up 14% of the army's active-service strength of more than 500,000 soldiers.

Women are barred from combat roles but have been allowed in the last two decades to serve in a wide variety of other positions.

A little info here about it..

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/7730744.stm

In fact, I think they (the United States) made their first female four star general today.

[wamingo 1]

Damn.. there are a lot of windbags on Gamasutra.  There was so much garage-intellectual bullcrap in there that my head nearly exploded.  If I have any lasting psychological or vision problems caused by reading those comments, I'll hold you responsible, wamingo.

Everything should be taken in moderation.

In fact, I think they (the United States) made their first female four star general today.

yeah and hey look, in Liberia there's an all-female's peace keeping force - because female soldiers are more caring you know - they don't rape the population. What more arguments could we possibly need?

Sorry but producing the illusion of equal rights doesn't come much cheaper than through medals. Call me a cynic if you want, but medals is and always has been a way to pay off people's discontent with war. Make someone a hero and your warmachine is suddenly justified.

[memphisbelle 99]

I don't see a big need for it, as female soldiers traditionally is kept behind the lines of actual fighting and are often assigned to engineering or other non-fighting roles.

And this is a game as many others focused on that line. But sure, it wouldn't hurt either

A bit a long ago this post, but I nevertheless have to disagree. Espacially in the US Forces many female Soldiers are fighting in different roles right at the front, in the Air, on the ground, in Tanks aso. They are of course mostley beeing in support units like medics or somethings else like that, so far it´s correct.

When I saw many womans in Combat suits in german Army, and female Soldiers while cooperative Combat Trainings with US Forces in Germany, there wasnt much a different between male Soldiers (espacially heavy equiped units), so werent it pretty easy just to recreate the faces to become the effect of a female Soldier in a Combat suite?