31st Normandy mod -WW2

[Enigma85 2]

Agreed with that,

After contacting a selection of WW2 OFP modders i got a very positive response.

many were more then happy to offer work.

we have permission from T_Roc,Goth_burner,BraTTy,ATST_walker (B45) & JOHN

and hopefully will do there work justice.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Aren't the swastika markings on your Heinkel going to cause

problems for your German fans (and German addon sites)?

[Enigma85 2]

To Be honest this was brought up in the earlier pages of the thread.

in my view the swastika has been around for many years.

(in fact I'm pretty sure it's the oldest known symbol in the world.

even older than the ancient Egyptian ankh.)

Thus was around far before the National socialist party adopted it in 1920.

there has been many uses as a good luck charm as a symbol for welfare,prosperity and peace.

it's not a symbol that should be linked with violence and genocide.it was used widely the world over until the link with the nazi's.

As someone said before.

the Germans need to deal with there past,Not ban it.

as i recall many other mods have had no trouble with swastikas

forgotten hope for BF1942,Red orchastra had swastikas aswell as i recall.

and I'm sure people from Germany still play them?

Also the BF109 has swastikas,

as well as the JU-52.

the JU-87 stuka Will have swastikas when it's textured.

if it was on the plane in picture from WW2 then it will be on the texture i make.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

To Be honest this was brought up in the earlier pages of the thread.

in my view...

Well, your personal view means little in the face of German

law. But, fair enough, I won't raise the point again.

[MehMan 0]

A mod I worked on missed a chance to be on the front page of a german PC mag, but the whole deal was canceled because of a swastike that was used as a flag. It still got coverage in many other mags though, but not front page, just in the mod column.

[NoRailgunner 0]

XxEnigmAxX swastikas are forbidden symbols in Germany and forced by law. Look at other official games there - no swastikas. Most nazi symbols you will find in the inofficial WW2 mods/addons. Making an WW2 mod and talking about "swastikas are symbols for welfare, prosperity and peace" is bit... strange. You should ask people worldwide what they link with swastikas. Maybe they should deal with their meaning too?  

[Enigma85 2]

i guess a german version could be done for the final.

i can take the swastikas off the texture quite easily (separate layers in photoshop)

but i doubt this will be in the beta.

final version maybe i'll have to talk to rip about it.

in the end it means 2 versions of the product with minimal difference.

i try to follow the paint schemes that are shown in photos from ww2

so that it looks as accurate as possible.

the majority of German aircraft seem to have swastikas on the tail upright.

[rip31st 98]

Swastikas's: I took a quick survey on people's opinions earlier in the thread. At the time no one was concerned. However you will have to recall and remember that the mod isn't even at a beta release phase yet. So if opinions change, then the textures can easily be changed from the swastikas to iron cross. It wouldn't be fair to our friends in Germany if they couldn't play. I haven't been approached by any german magazines yet for mod interviews. Just UK,USA & AUS. But I can imagine that would be a show stopper for them.

Update - Work continues on the ww2warfare mission. Still lots to do in regards to the mission.

[BadBenson 0]

Quote[/b] ]A mod I worked on missed a chance to be on the front page of a german PC mag, but the whole deal was canceled because of a swastike that was used as a flag. It still got coverage in many other mags though, but not front page, just in the mod column.

i think this would be the only real problem. here in germany some symbols are forbidden so neonazis can be forced by law to remove them from whatever they're on.

just don't make it too obvious in your promo pics for german sites. and since it is a non commercial mod there's no instance checking for symbols like that. so there's no extra version needed.

BTW: do you plan to make a flamethrower?

[Aqu 0]

I hope you don't have to remove them. In my opinion (which nobody cares) banning them is just as stupid as just closing your eyes when you see a car is going to hit you.

Anyway if you remove them, do NOT put there anything. In planes just remove the rudder swastika and put nothing there. In tanks you never see them anyway. Iron cross was used in WWI (or when there was "Kaiser" in the rule) and afer WW2 in new new army. It would just double the mistake in historical accuracy. If you have flags etc where you have to put something, use then the + shape cross used in tanks (and aircraft main wings)

[NoRailgunner 0]

Better safe, than sorry!  

Change it to Iron Cross or to those "x x" signs from  The Great Dictator

[Enigma85 2]

XxEnigmAxX swastikas are forbidden symbols in Germany and forced by law. Look at other official games there - no swastikas. Most nazi symbols you will find in the inofficial WW2 mods/addons. Making an WW2 mod and talking about "swastikas are symbols for welfare, prosperity and peace" is bit... strange. You should ask people worldwide what they link with swastikas. Maybe they should deal with their meaning too?  

the swastika wasn't invented by the Nazi's.

it's over 3000 years old.

the oldest known symbol in the world.

before the nationalist socialist party took it up it was a commonly used symbol world wide that stood for peace,Good luck,Welfare and such.

you can even see a swastika on the spirit of St.Louis as a good luck charm.

soldiers in WW1 wore them for Good luck.

just because everyone may think they stand for hatred,genocide and Nazism.

doesn't mean the majority of people are right.

Strange though you may think it.

any symbol could have been chosen and it would be in the same position of the swastika.

Banning a symbol isn't the answer.

but that's the course they've taken.

as I've been informed the Beta will contain them.

the final they will be replaced with iron crosses.

unless there banned as well  

[rip31st 98]

I can add it to my short list.  It will only delay things about a week.    beyond what I have to do already.

Iron crosses won't be banned.

[Namikaze 0]

The swastika was around for thousands of years before a (relatively) small group of people went and tainted it's meaning.  It has always been a symbol of good fortune, health, prosperity, etc. and it's only in the last 60 years that this has been any different, and even then it was only for what?  6, 7 years?

The whole issue of German law is something similar, but also (relatively) small compared to the swastika imagery issue at large.  If it's against the law, right wrong or indifferent, it shouldn't be done.  Obviously you guys are being totally top class about this and respecting the wishes of those that are offended or could be offended by the symbol.  I think that's great.  I just wanted to remind people that overall, the symbol is WAY more than just the symbol of the Nazi party.

[Enigma85 2]

The swastika was around for thousands of years before a (relatively) small group of people went and tainted it's meaning.  It has always been a symbol of good fortune, health, prosperity, etc. and it's only in the last 60 years that this has been any different, and even then it was only for what?  6, 7 years?

The whole issue of German law is something similar, but also (relatively) small compared to the swastika imagery issue at large.  If it's against the law, right wrong or indifferent, it shouldn't be done.  Obviously you guys are being totally top class about this and respecting the wishes of those that are offended or could be offended by the symbol.  I think that's great.  I just wanted to remind people that overall, the symbol is WAY more than just the symbol of the Nazi party.

exactly!

this man knows the score

3000 years of history ruined by 6 years of violence and genocide.

anyways i think this has gone on long enough lol.

lets get back on track with the topic now that we've worked out some compromise.

[Aqu 0]

Like I said, if you have to do something...just leave them out! Putting iron cross there is totally wrong.

In other games the issue have been delt two ways: a) Leave them complete out (Il-2 Forgotten Battles) b) use the + type cross (Call of Duty). I prefer a

[belgerot 33]

I'm thrilled to hear that you have had correspondence with so many in OFP for this mod. I cannot wait to see what develops from this in the near future, but I am sure it will be something good!

[Enigma85 2]

Like I said, if you have to do something...just leave them out! Putting iron cross there is totally wrong.

In other games the issue have been dealt two ways: a) Leave them complete out (Il-2 Forgotten Battles) b) use the + type cross (Call of Duty). I prefer a

the + (or Balkenkreuz) is a better option in my opinion.

and leaving an blank area where there should be something isn't right.

if it wasn't banned in Germany the swastika would be there where it belongs,but in the interest of playability it's being taken out.

as i've said after talking to rip.

the iron cross will be added in place of swastika,

now lets get back onto the mod progression and leave the swastika and iron cross discussion behind us.

[TankCommander 3]

Personally I would like to see the swastika remain in the textures as being historically accurate. It may be a very old symbol which stood for good and prosperous things, but in a short time it has become bastardised for many years to come. So with this it is best to remain sensitive to anyone who may be offended by it's use within a WWII game. For within this context, it certainly doesn't stand for anything to do with peace.

If only there could be a censorship button to block out these symbols or not.

[Törni 0]

Symbols do not kill anybody - people do. Nazi Germany lost the war so swastika got banned. Soviet Union and other nations have been doing at least as nasty stuff for a much longer time since WW2, but their symbols never got banned.

If you want to be historically accurate swastika should be there. After the war the Germans had a hard time trying to convince everybody that they can change. It's been almost 70 years for God's sake. Start to act as normal again people. It is just a symbol like any other.

[Enigma85 2]

I Don't think it's fair to cut off the German players by including the Swastika.

I could make a separate texture for a German version that hasn't got the swastika.

But this would mean uploading 2x X.Y.ZMB's just for kb's worth of change.

having 1 global version that is available to everyone just cuts all the hassle out.

swastika/iron crosses or not.

it's a lot less work for a team that already has stacks of work to do.

[belgerot 33]

I understand the importance, especially in the case of German law prohibiting display of the swastika. If you look back to OFP, there were numerous Luftwaffe addons, some of which had the swastika in place, while others were left blank.

I personally feel that if you choose not to display the swastika yourselves, then it would only be right to leave it blank. I can see the iron cross or Balkenkreuz replacing the swastika in flags, but that's it really. The proportions and design just wouldn't look right on those planes. That's my point of view, but I hope your decision has been made and you can move on.

[da_aNimal 0]

i suggest to keep the mod historicly correct and add a replacement pack for the germans so they can also emjoy the mod.its not fair to punish all just because one country.we still have museum displays showing the swastika.2c

[MehMan 0]

oh come on, like anybody's going to notice missing swastikas! It's mostly on airplanes and you're not going to be looking into the fine details of what's painted on the rudder, but rather on shooting off the rudder.

[jeza 5415]

i suggest to keep the mod historicly correct and add a replacement pack for the germans so they can also emjoy the mod.its not fair to punish all just because one country.we still have museum displays showing the swastika.2c

Firstly I have the impression the mod is meant to be more accessable and fun to play than sticking to a strict historical outline. However I have helped Rip and co out a small bit interms of the historical aspect, and I can tell you that it is very accurate, but not to the point where the emphasis is all on history, im sure for any ww2 fan its going to be a great experiance interms or gaming and authenticity.