Gore Limb Dismemberment Mod? WIP?

[Renegade Commando 0]

Dismemberment is one thing, what about charred bodies? Remember Mondkalb's napalm? or the Scud with nuclear warhead (don't remember who made it)? It looked ridiculous with the burnt vehicles, scorched terrain and in the middle of it all the crew was just laying there with some blood on the uniforms.

And while I'm at it: Overpenetration, the bullet go straight thru the body and can, if close enough, kill the person next to you (one shot, two kills).

The ability to shoot thru cars really should be implemented, as a 7.62mm (.308 rem.) round have absolutely no problem going thru a couple of cardoors and kill whoever's hiding on the other side of the car.

[Linker Split 0]

The ability to shoot thru cars really should be implemented, as a 7.62mm (.308 rem.) round have absolutely no problem going thru a couple of cardoors and kill whoever's hiding on the other side of the car.

That is already done via bisurf file

I implemented it in my barracks for my HDT island

[sdoc 0]

Quote[/b] ]games supposed to entertain you

Games are not supposed to entertain Nephilim. The fact that many games are there to entertain does not mean that all games are there to entertain.

I'm actually quite offended by the fact that someone could consider a game like ArmA, wich is mostly centred around war and killing as entertainment.

If someone plays wars in ArmA for entertainment, and stops to enjoy or even to play it for being disgusted by blood, gore and dismemberment it would be a major improvement.

[MehMan 0]

Video game wars are never ever ever ever ever close to war. You see, in war, real people die. Here it's just a 0 and 1. After you press retry, the 0 turns to 1. Nobody dies, nobody gets hurt. It's all fun and games, as the saying goes.

[nephilim 0]

@sdoc.. yea right....

i guess you think you kill real people there eh?

remember this is a game....

what do you do with it? train for the next school massacre?

get vbs2 if you want training or go outside and do drills....

as in entertainment i do not mean that people laugh their asses of if you hit some pixels... any for of game is mean to entertain.. eg a horror movie is also ment as a form of entertainment as comedy movie is....

[-HUNTER- 1]

Its all about how far people want to go with their game.

Offcourse there will be kids playing this game and then its

problems. But then again perhaps a bit more blood and whatnot

is a good thing, because having "clean" war pictures just as

hollywood has produced us for the last 10 years is fake.

I havent seen a good war movie lately?

No because people dont care about the hollywood

fake bs if they can see the real thing on liveleak.

Its all about how different people want to play their game.

(and if people could actually perform sick shit like school killings

on their computers, then perhaps they wouldnt do it in real life.)

^let alone the fact its not about the gaming to start with, with people that do these things. They need !!!

Personally I would say yes to a mod that makes people fly apart when hit, or bleeding heavily when shot, and also crewmembers of tanks and such should be burned.

Not extremely well textured, but enough to get the point across.

I think this adds to peoples perceptions of war, instead of sticking your head in the sand and pretending this stuff doenst happen.

edit

I was just thinking about the above, and actually having limbs that can be blown off, would add ALLOT to the MP aspects of the game.

Because now medics and medivacs become a thing

that can be addressed.

If your squad goes on mission and one of the guys

gets shot in the arm he cannot use his rifle anymore,

he is losing blood and a medic has to come to stop

the bleeding. He has to be medivaced out to be "healed"

at base hospital for a few minutes.

This isnt the worsed case offcourse...

Could be taking further with enemy ai doing things like pulling guys back to a medic etc etc.

If you could do the body dismemberment Properly it is very usable for MANY things. Not for the gore factor, but its just what this game it about.

[miles teg 1]

I probably wouldn't mind the gore so much if in fact we could have more realistic medivacs where AI actually drag or carry wounded to a medivac vehicle which has to take him to a field hospital to be healed (or replaced with a fresh recruit which is more realistic).

Neph, I might point out that not all of us can afford VBS2 nor have a real life squad to practice drills with. Other then the occasional paint ball tournament with my old Army buddies against lots of noobs, ArmA and Joint Operations is where I practice certain techniques. It's actually more of a type of therapy for me after I left the military (which was very depressing). Makes me feel good to make realistic missions... but the gore was something I never liked. When you've seen it in real life, it's not fun to watch in a game although I could probably stomache it if it served an essential purpose like a mod where the medic character had to choose from a menu different emergency field expedient procedures to do for a particular type of injury otherwise the wounded soldier dies. Someone could probably simulate one hell of a medic training mod if they already know how to create custom injuries and gore. Granted its not the same as dealing with the real deal (much messier, and a ton of factors to worry about), but it would give the medic a much more interesting job in the game with a bit more realism, especially if he could drag and load a wounded soldier into a medivac vehicle.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[shinRaiden 0]

ArmA is intended to be an entertainment product. While it may have capabilities to be a medical skills trainer, it is not marketed as such.

Those of you with medical training, or experience with the psychological ramifications of trauma treatment will immediately recognize that enjoying gore as a form of entertainment is extremely psychologically inappropriate and frankly damaging to emotional wellbeing of the participants.

The emotional desire of the undisciplined desires for shock and bloodlust fairly universally regarded as abhorrent by most societies, and expressions of such are reserved for the most punitive retaliatory punishments for great evils and injustices, and hardly as spectator sports.

A close friend was only days ago one of the first responders to a horrific and fatal motorcycle accident. While he commented that he was surprised that he was as little affected by the trauma that lay around the scene, his utmost focus was to aid the victim in whatever way possible so that his certain passing would be as (relatively) comfortable as possible. Until you have been in a similar situation, or have a heart to feel, you will not understand the gravity of what you here trivialize.

Not to set the personal sensitivities aside, but as has been expressed previously, the legal situation in respect to entertainment ratings for video games is in limbo internationally due to past ambivalence on the part of designers and publishers towards moral responsibility for their products, and for content produced for their product but outside the original developer's immediate control. Whether you agree or disagree with the defacto status, you should be able to see that implementation of an 'optimal technical solution' would result in serious backlash and legal review of the product. As was the case with GTA, the entire brand was smeared by the one instance of 'Hot Coffee', and no amount of protestation by the developers could remove the public image and stigma attached retroactively.

[DrBobcat 0]

ArmA is intended to be an entertainment product. While it may have capabilities to be a medical skills trainer, it is not marketed as such.

Those of you with medical training, or experience with the psychological ramifications of trauma treatment will immediately recognize that enjoying gore as a form of entertainment is extremely psychologically inappropriate and frankly damaging to emotional wellbeing of the participants.

The emotional desire of the undisciplined desires for shock and bloodlust fairly universally regarded as abhorrent by most societies, and expressions of such are reserved for the most punitive retaliatory punishments for great evils and injustices, and hardly as spectator sports.

A close friend was only days ago one of the first responders to a horrific and fatal motorcycle accident. While he commented that he was surprised that he was as little affected by the trauma that lay around the scene, his utmost focus was to aid the victim in whatever way possible so that his certain passing would be as (relatively) comfortable as possible. Until you have been in a similar situation, or have a heart to feel, you will not understand the gravity of what you here trivialize.

Not to set the personal sensitivities aside, but as has been expressed previously, the legal situation in respect to entertainment ratings for video games is in limbo internationally due to past ambivalence on the part of designers and publishers towards moral responsibility for their products, and for content produced for their product but outside the original developer's immediate control. Whether you agree or disagree with the defacto status, you should be able to see that implementation of an 'optimal technical solution' would result in serious backlash and legal review of the product. As was the case with GTA, the entire brand was smeared by the one instance of 'Hot Coffee', and no amount of protestation by the developers could remove the public image and stigma attached retroactively.

While I wholeheartedly agree with your thoughts on gore implementation in mainstream game design, and while I did not necessarily infer that you implied otherwise, I still believe the choice should still be given to the player on whether or not he or she wishes to have additional levels of gore in their (this) game. For all intensive purposes, someone (or a team) could "easily" create a new mod that does so and pack it all into a single PBO file. If an individual so desired, he or she could place the file in a mod folder and be off in their own blood-filled universe. Conversely, if they did not, they could abstain from downloading the file at all and be fine.

I definitely do not recommend any teams working on total-conversion to implement any gore system directly into the underworkings of their product. Otherwise, this whole entire argument will flare up once again and virtual heads will roll onto the message board...

- dRb

[max power 21]

Fortunately you're not a psychologist, shinraiden, and societal norms or conventions are not the final judge on what is psychologically healthy.

I find it a bit of a stretch that if some external mod group makes people blow up that ArmA will be internationally banned. Hot Coffee was not a mod. It was created by the gta developers and bundled with the game with its functionality deactivated. It was not a mod, but part of the game, left dangling there for anyone to activate. This WAS very irresponsible of the Rockstar development team, and Rockstar got what it deserved... well maybe not, considering that GTA's sales are through the roof and its newest incarnation features a drunk driving simulator, as well as a vignette where you pose as a gay male to gain the trust of another gay male in order to get close to him to murder him, a la Geoffrey Dahmer. Despite this, it rated a perfect ten at gamespot.

I don't think that anything you said there is true, ShinRaiden. I'm not saying that your concerns aren't well met, but this argument is a dead end.

[Balschoiw 0]

Apart from the engine limitations of Arma that will always make an implemented feature like this look stupid, I don´t really see how a mod like this would be contributing to gameplay. As others have said there is currently no proper implementation of field MASH or medical treatment as a whole. Additionally a wounded with missing limbs is most of the times a thing that can´t be handled with by field medics. The only thing you can try to do is to stop the bleeding more or less and call for medevac. It´s not only the loss of the limb but the state of shock that puts the guy in life danger.

Apart from that, mutilations are not that frequent in the daily life of an infantry soldier. Fragmentation grenades are overrated in that aspect by both, movies and games. You will have dismembered limbs if you hit a body with really large calibers from tanks, helos, etc but usually the result of such is a total pizza. The typical limb loss happens when stepping on AP mines, driving over mines in a vehicle or hitting a hidden charge and not with regular infantry weapons used in Arma. Again I don´t see the gameplay relevance.

To me it is at least worrying that people do need such in a game to make it "better" for them. Personally I don´t want to have a reminder to what I´ve seen in real life when I play a game. But that´s maybe because I´m old and fed of the overdone damage display in games and movies. Much more often death in combat is a quiet rat that comes and gets you whithout much drama bang and puff.

[shinRaiden 0]

For once, I say "listen to bals, on this count he knows, and let them be at peace."

@plaintiff1, I am well aware of the 'technicalities' of GTA+HC, my point was that one incident blackballed all versions past, present, and future of GTA, and placed an irrevocable public negative image about GTA. You can not now have any sort of discussion about GTA without HC entering into the context. Some people thrive on negative publicity. Others are buried from it. Is that a risk you're willing to see?

The question I'm raising, is not whether it is possible to implement or not. I can think of several methods right off the top to implement it. But, I think given A - the risk of abuse, and B - the inappropriateness of excessive gore in entertainment, facilitating it would be inadvisable.

As a delicate case in point, which imho is applicable to this discussion, one prior poster in this thread created an oft-requested content item, which was then promptly abused by the community for inexcusable behavior. The nature of gaming communities and their behavior is such that abuse of human figures, and women and children, are risks that are not generally agreeable to the developers. While implementation may be technically possible, a reconsideration of whether they truely offer any entertainment value, let alone appropriate entertainment, is strongly advised.

[max power 21]

@ShinRaiden

What risk? What I'm saying is that the franchise has suffered nothing as a result of the publicity. Moreover, having people blown apart in a war setting != soliciting a prostitute, having graphic sex with her, then murdering her to get your money back.

[nephilim 0]

i agree with shinraiden to the fullest.

whilest ArmA sure hasnt a very "vivid" display of violence other fps has, and since arma still is a fps shooter it will automatically be dragged into th same pot by the media.

people dont seem to be aware of that.

whilest for some (inlcuding me) virtual gore isnt shocking or disgusting it is for people on the outside.

its hard to set a good reputation for fps games already.

one might say who cares? i say i care cause i dont want fps get banned.

germany was at the edge of banning fps games because of several shootings and brainless and incompetent politicians blaming games for that.

as people say here: dont feed the trolls.

the cleaner the game is the less arguments people will have against such games.

even if someone brings a gore mod as astand alone mod it will be for ArmA and hence itll might push it in a different light.

@plaintiff1

you dont have to be a psychologist to have some common sense.

mods wont be banned, but the original authors of arma will be dragged through the mud.. the media will mix it up anyway cause theyre only up for big headers with 0% value and coherency.

also people dont seem to be aware that fps games are also accesible to a younger public which are actually not ment to play them.

i might sound like your mom, but games can have bad influence, same as tv shows and music.

where do you think those 14 year old wannabe gangstas come from?

exactly, from a posh neighbour hood playing gta.

ok its a really exeggerated exmple.

anyway...

[max power 21]

@plaintiff1

you dont have to be a psychologist to have some common sense.

mods wont be banned, but the original authors of arma will be dragged through the mud.. the media will mix it up anyway cause theyre only up for big headers with 0% value and coherency.

also people dont seem to be aware that fps games are also accesible to a younger public which are actually not ment to play them.

i might sound like your mom, but games can have bad influence, same as tv shows and music.

where do you think those 14 year old wannabe gangstas come from?

exactly, from a posh neighbour hood playing gta.

ok its a really exeggerated exmple.

anyway...

I acknowledge your levity, Neph. I'm going to say the following in seriousness because I think it's important...

You do however have to be a psychologist or at least have the authority of a psychologist to make such psychological claims.. and what about making violent mods has anything to do with common sense? We are playing a wargame where it's possible to blow someone's face off. I don't hear any cries against BIS for programming a game that may portray the brutal molestation of the dead with automatic rifle fire.

The 14 year old wannabe ganstas come from negligent parents and a culture of violence. Violent crime, juvenile delinquency, the corruption of minors, and murder all existed before violent media. As for the possibility of children getting a hold of this game and then the violent mods that may or may made in the community, this is a parent's responsibility, just as it is a parent's responsibility to make sure their 8 year old isn't surfing porn.

Did Marilyn Mason or KMFDM cause the columbine massacre, do you think?

[Serclaes 0]

Imo you don't have to even go through the media. I stopped registering their opinions(even "facts") as they are real quick about it without necessarily having expertise in the matter.

My concern is more by the game/player itself.

"Its a game" and thats where the argue starts. ArmA is trying to "portray" war as close to real as possible. From this POV i would say dismemberment belongs to it. Though if i look at some kids, it starts with shooting around in the base, deliberate teamkilling etc. i believe that this dismemberment would rather be used as additional fun: "Haha look how far this leg flys" and this should not be it.

Recently i played Half Life 2 Episode 2 and i am very astonished how good the designers managed to immerse the player (me). Especially when Gordon was trapped under the building and Alyx was "slaughtered", the mix of feelings which were summoned was astonishing - for a computer game. Even if the blood was made grey (screw you damn devs for that germany only change! ) .

If there is such a dismemberment mod, it should bring a likewise empathy. Such a dismemberment should make your mind stumble and startle.

[CameronMcDonald 146]

An interesting discussion, to say the least. I'm not really for or against anything like this (although any attempt should be as realistic as ArmA-ly possible), as I've played enough FPSs and can still distinguish from the gaming world and reality.

I will admit that I'm secretly relieved that I still feel a little bit of shock at the brutality of some games. A good example is when Garn'er de Napouse (in Assassin's Creed) orders that poor bloke's legs broken... backwards. Nasty.

[einsena 0]

DRAMA LAMA DRAMA LAMA

don't like it don't use it! simple.

ArmA already is in the same bin as some of the most violent FPS game out there weather you like it or not. weather we'd be able to blow someones limb of or not, it is still violent, virtual people still die, gaping wounds are still visible, we are still able to kill virtual civilians. what kinda difference would a flying limb do to the image of an already violent game, other then get some nay sayers pissed? it's not like the OP demands you to make and or use a dismembering mod. he was only asking for informations so whats with the DRAMA?

IT IS A MURDER SIMULATOR, even the upgraded version(VBS2) is used to train soldier to be a more effective soldier(kill people). if a child plays this then that's their governments and parents busyness. look at all this "morals" flying around lol, just because someones stomach gets queezy.

[ArmaVidz 0]

don't like it don't use it! simple.

Offtopic, whether it's made or not, I think it's about damn time people stopped using that stupid phrase. It's equivelent to: "Turn a blind eye." "Look the other way." "None of your business." I even take that as a "Keep your mouth shut" in this context.

Some people feel compelled to say something which is evidence enough that perhaps there is some friction caused by the idea.

He's posting on a forum that is public for the community that develops and plays the game in question; he's sought the community's feedback. The feedback he so craved is in the posts in this thread; whether he like's the contents or not.

[Serclaes 0]

The "DRAMA" which some people show here is the serious concern you failed to recognise.

Oh, and what i please to do or not to do is not my govermenments business, as long as i don't do any damage to somebody else, even if it sometimes thinks it should be "protective" towards mature people. And it is neither my parents business. Tho it is the parents business if the game is rated 16+ and was tested without dismemberment mod or any other thing a child should not see. Because a mod can have a lot more impact than you are aware of.

A soldier btw is much more than a killing machine...

[DrBobcat 0]

Yes, but addon use is not and never has been mandatory. I am certain there are countless addons available for ArmA that people have not used in any significant fashion. What is wrong with offering a choice to the player?

Secondly, censoring addon content supposedly for the sake of protecting a game's reputation makes little sense to me and only seems to serve as an example of society's incessant urge to regulate moral law into some universal format that all beings must follow. So please, for the livelihood of new ideas and ethical pursuits, allow people to choose what they want to expose themselves to and try not to impose on others what you believe is right or wrong.

Thirdly, the military indeed does breed far more than killing machines and I hold nothing but the utmost respect for them. While we bicker amongst ourselves about whether to implement graphical features into a video game, they continue to fight or train on for our right to do so in the first place. My hopes are with each and every one of them.

To conclude, I am eager to see what the product of this discussion actually becomes, even if it results in absolutely nothing at all. It is better to find some sort of conclusion than just chase our tails for weeks on end...

- dRb

EDIT:

Quote[/b] ]Tho it is the parents business if the game is rated 16+ and was tested without dismemberment mod or any other thing a child should not see.

And what is stopping a sixteen year old with adequate modding skills from designing his own gore system, or even a nude mod of some sorts? Nothing. In addition, there have been no guidelines given from BIS on whether this kind of mod is allowed or not. Do you truly believe it is completely our responsibility to act as marketing agents on their behalf?

[Thunderbird 0]

Let's put aside the 'moral' aspect of this feature, as there will always be Pros/Cons and both sides have valid reasons to defend their positions.

Regarding the feature in question (From a technical point of view), this is doable with ArmA platform and there are several ways to carry this out.

(Simple Textures -> Fully Scripted Body Dismemberment)

The way Solus implemented this within the SLX MOD is genious, however, it could be much improved with the enhancement of the current 'P3Ds' used to simulate 'wrenched/burned limbs', alongside with the incorporation of additional 'Body parts' (50% more) in order to increase the immersion factor delivered by this feature.

Regards,

TB

[einsena 0]

don't like it don't use it! simple.

"Turn a blind eye." "Look the other way." "None of your business." I

exactly so, the use of this mod when it's released and or made will not differ your enjoyment of ArmA in any way. if you don't like it then don't use it!

"Turn a blind eye" because it will not effect you in any way, if you don't use it.

"Look the other way" because you won't see it anyway, if you don't use it.

"None of your business" because it doesn't seem like you'll use it anyway. oh and don't use it!

frankly i found your post a little paranoid, you fear that it will somehow ruin ArmA in every imaginable way, lol! some fear that it will soil it's image bla bla bla, well that won't happen, if you don't use it!

or are you saying that because you don't like it everyone else should too? now that's just wrong.

[sdoc 0]

My point is that a game about killing and war should make playing it the least entertaining and enjoyable as possible. The player can easily forget that 'in game' he is shooting human beings. The awfull consequences of his actions should be visible to him. That way he can personalise his victims again, and develop remorse for doing so, and even being in an ethical dilema before doing so again.

the generalization that games have to be entertainment is completely wrong, as you can immediately see if you compare it to it's sister art, cinema. Only a part of culturaly significiant movies could be described as entertaining. Of course there are much more reasons for a game than just training or learning. (that's something i'm really not interested in a war simulation! The most basic reason is just being a work of Art. That doesn't require any other compromises or reasons to be. It also provides almost unlimited freedom in most democratic countries.

Trying to make a war game, with an even slightly realistic background, entertaining, brings it to the same league as some forms of entertainment in a ancient roman arena.

This game is by the way absolutely not appropriate for young people. And i don't think about a lonely ladd who's problem with growing up makes one run amok in a school every odd year. I think about normal ladds who play it with 17 or 18 who wooot at tanks, pwn in mp, and think the army is cool, war is the big adventure, and do the worst thing they could do and enlist.

[nephilim 0]

Einsena

Quote[/b] ]IT IS A MURDER SIMULATOR

quoted for sheer stupidity.....

lets see, so we have  50281 registed mass murders here on this forum....

right...

@plaintiff

Quote[/b] ]Did Marilyn Mason or KMFDM cause the columbine massacre, do you think?

certainly not, but the media portraid it as if it would be.

and thats my actual point about this.

eg, what if some dork runs around the school next time shootin kids and people find arma+ultraviolencegoreModHAXXOR! on his comp?

the media will rip it apart and make arma the scapegoat for this. thats what they, do cause theyre brainless, like the majority of the population who think that the actual reason...

even if it would actually be used here as a sort of medevac thingy or whatever, they will take the worst parts, mix it with some cuts of 14 year old, pubaterian, pimpled dorks that dorks that laugh their asses of.

exactly the same happend in germany and still happens.

if you keep your reputation clean you dont have to worry any hassle..

again personally i wouldn not use it since i dont really need it but if you do fine its your thing.