Clarification on the MLOD release issue.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Seriously.  It's like some people are schizophrenic or something...  paranoid, totally detatched from reality, and socially stunted.  From some forum posters I even see features of 'word salad'.

I don't think that it's a good idea generally to let yoru sense of entitlement dictate your emotional state and how you interact socially.

Would you like to clarify that?

[ArmaVidz 0]

Seriously.  It's like some people are schizophrenic or something...  paranoid, totally detatched from reality, and socially stunted.  From some forum posters I even see features of 'word salad'.

The other two fine, but hey, I'm not detached from reality.

[sickboy 13]

I put myself behind RockOfSL, especially the last bold bit, altough I must admit I tried detaching myself personally from that crap as much as possible, it's really demoralizing.

I believe plaintiff means the wacko's that created an elephant from a fly... But that's just my interpretation

@Tutorial Gang:

Great guys, something positive comes out of this negative stuff.. Awesome.

[max power 21]

Seriously.  It's like some people are schizophrenic or something...  paranoid, totally detatched from reality, and socially stunted.  From some forum posters I even see features of 'word salad'.

I don't think that it's a good idea generally to let yoru sense of entitlement dictate your emotional state and how you interact socially.

Would you like to clarify that?

Sorry, Rock, I was agreeing with your post and commenting on your emboldened statement.  I was adding that people seem to take an initial reaction to something (ie. the perception that some easy road to stardom has been lost), react to it with strong emotions which clould their ability to come to a more complete understanding, and then post ignorant tyrades that poison the good will between the developer and the game community.  No matter how good the good people are, there will always be this rotten underbelly to offset them. In sum, people can be vicious and selfish, but the defining feature of this issue is that the viciousness and selfishness is *without reason*.

BTW, word salad is a feature of schizorphrenia.  It's an expression of the disorganized nature of the disorder in the form of speech.

[sickboy 13]

Im asking myself why Plaintiff got 2 boxes, while those should be medals

(Sorry for offtopic, but I couldn't myself )

[ArmaVidz 0]

Sorry, Rock, I was agreeing with your post and commenting on your emboldened statement.  I was adding that people seem to take an initial reaction to something (ie. the perception that some easy road to stardom has been lost), react to it with strong emotions which clould their ability to come to a more complete understanding, and then post ignorant tyrades that poison the good will between the developer and the game community.  No matter how good the good people are, there will always be this rotten underbelly to offset them.  In sum, people can be vicious and selfish, but the defining feature of this issue is that the viciousness and selfishness is *without reason*.

BTW, word salad is a feature of schizorphrenia.  It's an expression of the disorganized nature of the disorder in the form of speech.

I can't help but look at this statement as even more polorizing and targetted. The agreeing makes the division between the community members that have the experience/knowledge and the members that don't have the experience/knowledge even more apparent. I suppose that's nature of the beast(knowledge).

Suddenly, when some of the 'big guns' are in agreement, you're made to feel like the rotten underbelly.

At any rate, time to bow out of the convo. After dealing with office politics and the ins and outs of backstabbing for the last twelve years,  I thought I'd pass along my thoughts about action without solution(earlier in the thread) and now that some of the 'big guns' are really putting their heart and head into the issue (even more than they already have in the past) I'm sure the entire community will benefit from it.

Great job fellas. Keep up the great work.

[sickboy 13]

I do hope you are not aiming at me there mate (Not that I dream to be part of 'the big boys', but still), as im not purposefully trying to admit or create a divide between any group of ppl. Maybe though between "Unconstrictive" and "Constructive" but I can not see the harm in that.

Also my agreement with RockofSL aswell as Plaintiff was meant in general, and not to anyone specifically in the last few posts or rest of this thread.

As I do believe some peeps are seeing ghosts, making elephants out of flies and need a reality check )

I also believe i'm noticing positive things popping up from the past few pages, which might seem offtopic though I believe it's part of the solution to problems like these, panda's modelling guide per example.

[ArmaVidz 0]

I do hope you are not aiming at me there mate (Not that I dream to be part of 'the big boys', but still), as im not purposefully trying to admit or create a divide between any group of ppl. Maybe though between "Unconstrictive" and "Constructive" but I can not see the harm in that.

No, no, Sickboy. Just the general, overall, "I agree" from the more established "pillars", if you will, of the community. I'm trying to lump you in, not single you out. :P

And you are right, there is some very constructive and positive things coming from the last few pages, which are, imho, very relevant to the issue.

Cheers,

Vidz

[sickboy 13]

Just the silly idea popped into my head, seeing the community struggle for information etc:

What about Workshops?

Video / Audio

Live / Recorded

Virtual / Personal

Beginner / Advanced

Maybe a discussion for a new "Solutions" thread... or for the Trash Can

[max power 21]

Suddenly, when some of the 'big guns' are in agreement, you're made to feel like the rotten underbelly.

ArmaVidz, you have never conducted yourself in any way that I've seen that could be described as vicious.  On the contrary, I see you as an overall positive force in the community.  I wasn't talking about people who disagree with what BIS, or about the people who are honestly ignorant about what is going on but are exploring the issue through conversation in order to learn more.  I was talking about people who make very strong, negative statements off of their cuffs.  I think that any opinion is a valid conversation piece of it is made in good faith. Perhaps I glossed over what you said that you may think I was referring to, but I have no recollection of you being a selfobsessed jerk.  The reaction to this issue has been far reaching in the community, and you must agree that not all of the reaction has been constructive.

[ArmaVidz 0]

Quote[/b] ]I have no recollection of you being a selfobsessed jerk.

Well there was the tracer incident   (Neph & Sickboy know)

Quote[/b] ]The reaction to this issue has been far reaching in the community, and you must agree that not all of the reaction has been constructive.

I do.

Quote[/b] ]What about Workshops?

Video / Audio

Beginner / Advanced

<s>I can get on that. Be great to have more than one person with input into it, so that might be possible as well. Not so much in workshop form but I have the tools necessary for delivery of video tutorials, pdf tutorials and screen capture. If it's ever needed/wanted in the future.</s>

Wrote that too quickly. A workshop or solution thread would be great.

[Thunderbird 0]

The nature of this debate shows how things were tricky and somewhat confusing, mainly due to the amount of different statements in the thread in question.

However, I don't feel any viciousness or meanness so far, but just a bunch of perplexed and confused people who, seamingly were to some extent, worried about the future of their MODs, or in a general manner, simply concerned about the continuation of the Modding scene.

Things are rather clear now, and in my opinion, there is nothing to seriously worry about as long as a certain selection of MLOD 3D files would be officially and publicly released.

Regards,

TB

[UNN 0]

Quote[/b] ]Things are rather clear now, and in my opinion, there is nothing to seriously worry about as long as a certain selection of MLOD 3D files would be officially and publicly released.

I think that was about it. What I read from the official statements was:

Making Arma's content available to Arma addon makers for the game in general is ok. Making Arma's addons available to other games is not, at least without prior consent.

I don’t think BI did anything different from when they stepped in to protect addon makers, from the Dawar's escapade? I don't know how all that was resolved. But if BI are willing to uphold the rights of addon makers, then addon makers should uphold the rights of BI.

[dm 9]

This fixation on MLODs is entirely unhealthy.

All the MLODs show us is how certain units are setup, no more, no less. From a learning point of view they are incredibly limited, and really, no different from what we had in OFP. Which do you think is better: some MLOD models, which to the newb can be incredibly complex and confusing, or some well formatted documentation?

Basing your work off of the existing content simply limits you to the "envelope" in which you work, but by experimenting, you can push this envelope far beyond what BI has achieved...

Those people making the most noise about the "lack" of available MLODs are wanting them for reasons other than to learn from them... And, as has already been explained over and over, kitbashing exisiting models is NOT the best way to go.

I would take 1 page of decent BIKI documentation over 100 MLOD models...

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]Things are rather clear now, and in my opinion, there is nothing to seriously worry about as long as a certain selection of MLOD 3D files would be officially and publicly released.

I think that was about it. What I read from the official statements was:

Making Arma's content available to Arma addon makers for the game in general is ok. Making Arma's addons available to other games is not, at least without prior consent.

I don’t think BI did anything different from when they stepped in to protect addon makers, from the Dawar's escapade? I don't know how all that was resolved. But if BI are willing to uphold the rights of addon makers, then addon makers should uphold the rights of BI.

The situation is that if you choose to violate the EULA, you're at BIS's legal mercy, and it will be up to them whether or not they wish to serve you with a cease and desist order or a lawsuit or whatever else their lawyers advice.  They'd do that if they feel that you're potentially harming the company. The point though is that if you violate the EULA, BIS can do whatever they want to you, so to speak.

[Placebo 29]

so, if we start thinking this way, maybe, bis should stop, supporting the community at all.

http://files.filefront.com/suma+fi....fo.html

If you take the time listening to this interview you´ll notice that BIS actually plans to withdraw from the PC community already.

This was first stated in an interview with placebo around the beginning of 2007 btw.

Eh? I don't recall ever stating that BIS will withdraw from the PC community, and I was retired from Jan-Sep 07 so I can't have been the one who said it

[mr burns 131]

so, if we start thinking this way, maybe, bis should stop, supporting the community at all.

http://files.filefront.com/suma+fi....fo.html

If you take the time listening to this interview you´ll notice that BIS actually plans to withdraw from the PC community already.

This was first stated in an interview with placebo around the beginning of 2007 btw.

Eh? I don't recall ever stating that BIS will withdraw from the PC community, and I was retired from Jan-Sep 07 so I can't have been the one who said it

*scratches head* well you must be right then

It was said by somebody though, otherwise i´d have to see the doc and get my brain checked..

[W0lle 1049]

Took me quite a while to dig it out, that rumor came up here. I haven't heard that in an interview from whatever though.

Of course I checked with Marek back then and if I'm not totally wrong he denied that.

[miles teg 1]

I'm more worried about what someone mentioned that in an interview, a BI rep mentioned that BI might withdraw from the whole gaming scene if ArmA2 bombs. That would really suck in the worst way as they are the only game developers doing anything even close to a truly realistic infantry/combined arms combat simulation.

I've been a loyal fan of BI since the OFP demo (actually before). My main hope is that BI will invest in some SERIOUS marketing for ArmA2 especially in the United States where most gamers have never even heard of Armed Assault. I think if they made videos like some of the best user made ArmA videos on You-Tube (like the blackhawk down video) they could make some kick ass TV commercials.

An example are the TV commercials done for Assassins Creed and the Call of Duty series. They make you just say, "WOW!"

They also could advertise on college campuses (which have massive gamer communities) as well along with promoting demos with College and high school ROTC departments as low cost training tools for basic infantry tactics.

At any rate, that's a different topic for a different thread. My apologies for diverging as I can go on and on about marketing ideas.

As for the the topic at hand, I resent a bit being called a "whiner." Many of us quite simply put lack the talent and/or time. So to say "stop whining" means to simply quit the community as we simply lack the time if any significant progress in community development is not done (with or without BIS's help). It's not complaining. Its just a fact.

This is what I meant earlier about the "survival of the fittest" mentality. Yes you may get better quality addons, but you will also get a vastly smaller MOD community. The rest...simply don't have the patience, motivation, or experience to hack it. What can I say...some of us are weaker and less skilled. That's part of life. In addition those that also do their own whining about whiners need to remember that BI employees get PAID to work on BI stuff. We do it for the love of the game....if that love dies... the community dies. Some of us are just more in love and devoted then others. I know I'm pretty deep in love with OFP and ArmA so I'm going to hold on as long as I can in hopes of good times to come. '

BUT..... on a positive not, it is true that the community CAN prosper with only limited support from BI as they do have limited resources to devote to MOD community support. I REALLY want to support the community and try to hack it and I'm glad people are taking the initiative in writing tutorials. A big stumbling block though is the Wiki system. I've only had bad experiences with my stuff being deleted by people on wiki (not concerning ArmA, but on other non-related topics). Rock'o mentioned that problem of overzealous authors deleting anything modified by others. Quite frankly if I post a massive tutorial on ArmA mission editing (like my exhausting experiences trying to get the AI to lay a satchel charge and detonate it and how it differs from OFP) and some jackass just deletes it cuz it doesn't fit some type of format, I would BLOW MY TOP and never post a damn thing on there again. What I would prefer myself is for tutorials to first be posted at the OFP Editing Center site which has a nice neat section for tutorials that won't result in ugly fights. Plus you can add demo missions as well with the tutorial that help to demonstrate what you said. From there, such tutorials can then be copy, pasted, and modified as needed on BIKI with references as necessary to the OFP Editing Center.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Shadow NX 1]

Promotion and such isnt in BIS hand its done by the publisher and as far as i could hear in the interview bis has picked the smaller ones because after the problems with Codemasters they became carefully and werent willing to sign contracts with big publishers because it would have involved that they get control on development and brand names.

So it seems the small publishers were better for BIS with the downside that not much marketing was made for the game

But if im honest i dont think that OFP had a better marketing back then, at least not here in europe.

[[aps]gnat 28]

But if im honest i dont think that OFP had a better marketing back then, at least not here in europe.

The OFP demo I remember was on a whole bunch of magazine CDs ... I think I only remember seeing the ArmA demo on 1 mag.

I'm not saying its a huge factor, but it is 1.

Anyhow, its OT

[PhilippRauch 0]

Yeah, ArmA-Streetteams like for those Popstars....

Some ArmA-Freaks runnin around with camos and waving Flags announcing the new ArmA ..

The Developers need to earn a income, like all of us... And its NOT coming from community AddOns. But from sold Games and as such they need to make sure the company survives BEFORE they can spend time doing stuff for free. Yeah, theyre sure proud like hell if their game is going to be played the next 5 years or so because of community addons, but thats never going to get food on their table.

To get back to Topic, the whole mlod-issue thing is just a legal (as in Law) matter. If BIS doesnt stops all cracking THEIR copyrighted content where might it lead to? ... Why not crack the arma.exe?.. You see? "Wehret den Anfängen" And as such BIS reaction is perfectly ok, and honestly i believe guys who cant crack the stuff on their own, also dont really know enough to do good things with the pre-cracked content anyway...

The whole modding is also part of the game-experience, its fun and entertaining, why should we get ALL for free when those guys work hard hours for little cash and then get rebuked for not spending more unpaid hours creating stuff that will NEVER pay back (off?), even if they would charge for it. And their companies worth is in their brains and as such in the sources...

Yeah Modding is important for keeping the game alive, but since the game is not subscription based, what do the developers and investors get from this? The only reason they support this game like they did (also with OFP, KUDOS) and will do is their love and passion for that kind of gaming and modding.

And we should do the same...

(Remember two brothers dream?)

[miles teg 1]

You make alot of assumptions. A ton of great stuff has been made from "pre-cracked" material as you call it. But I guess that is a matter of opinion.

You then make the assumption that free addons and mods do not translate into sales for BIS. I still know people who are buying OFP because they saw the massive amount of mods available for that game. Unless you are involved in BIS and distributor's marketing strategy meetings, I don't think either you or I are privy to the sales figures over the long term for BIS (from OFP).

Likewise you assume that the developers make little money. Maybe they do, maybe they don't, but do you know the BIS development teams and if so did they tell you how much they make?

At any rate, the issue concerning the MLOD's has pretty much been resolved with the primary message from BIS being, "Don't abuse a good thing in a way that could hurt our company."

If you bothered to read the past responses you would have seen that most of us are aware of BIS's limited resources and that they can't do everything we ask when we want it.

But they could at least communicate if that's indeed what the problem is. They can also be creative such as for examples having high quality DVD tutorials for how to make proper addons that we would have to buy. I would be cool with that as long as the price isn't absurd. That should more then pay for the cost of paying staff to develop tutorials and example models/configs.

I like that BIS has kept this thread up because I think that they are actually listening. If they wanted us to just shut up and move on, they would have shut down this thread long ago. I'm interested in helping to give BIS positive ideas for how to keep the community alive and thriving but also taking into account their business issues and economic realities.

That is why it is a healthy thing to hash out different ideas that will keep the community excited but also keep BIS's bottom line healthy so that they can keep producing kick ass games. We also would like to prevent the ArmA mod community from degenerating but instead to continue like the successful OFP community that many of us came from.

Chris G.

aka-Miles Teg<GD>

[Shadow NX 1]

The Developers need to earn a income, like all of us... And its NOT coming from community AddOns. But from sold Games and as such they need to make sure the company survives BEFORE they can spend time doing stuff for free. Yeah, theyre sure proud like hell if their game is going to be played the next 5 years or so because of community addons, but thats never going to get food on their table.

A good % comes from community addons, not directly but guess how many people buy ArmA after see awesoem combat screens with for example perfect stuff like Camerons US Infantry, or Johnnys Marines.

I know that many bought ArmA only because pics of it were spread on many other forums including Military ones like Militaryphotos.net.

I think the amount of people that actually buyed OFP because they knew there are tons of mods for it is quite high.

So in other words a steady addon flow helps selling the game over a long time.

And thats also why i must say if we cant get the sample models we need we have to find a workaround...

[MehMan 0]

Well BIS has released all sample models now:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....0;top