Clarification on the MLOD release issue.

[sparky 0]

@Mr.Burns indeed maybe i should listen it more careful. I was listening to it, in Sunday, but it was hard to stay focus, cause i was studying...

One thing that i remember is that Suma says, that if ArmA2 doesn't fullfill their expectations they withdraw from PC-Gaming....

Anyway, i re-listen to it. thanks.

But if that's true, then it's sad, to me for the whole hours i've spent, and still spending.

[sickboy 13]

Quote[/b] ]I see what you mean about the community working together and knowledge, and availability of information. From someone just getting acquianted with scripts, modelling and texturing for the first time, in OFP or ARMA, I do believe the WIKI is a rather 'head-scratching' location for info though. %100 better than nothing at all though.

What you need, mate, is a Guide. The wiki provides very little of those. The wiki provides specific information for specific need.

The whole point im trying to make is that we need more information into the wiki, but also guides.

Guides and information don't produce themselves. People do

If we all share more information and guides, and provide easy accessibility (biki imo), the whole community can benefit, and there is less frustration because not every modder out there is facing the same shit over and over, and can skip all the crap and get to what he likes to do most

@Price2505:

You have fully misunderstood me. I have nowhere or will ever expect anyone to worship me. Nor do I say the modding community is lazy or unproductive. Im saying that I believe the current situation of bad information dispersion, as that was one of the complaints, is the Community themselves to blame for.

Also i'm wondering where this changed from a general discussion into a personal thing.

Ppl produce for the masses, but share information within small groups. For a Community to work better, information should be shared amongst everyone part of that community. This way the community as a whole can grow, and whining about no information and no MLODs would possibly reduce.

Less whining, less putting the problems on other's plates, more info sharing; more happy community. Basicly; Constructive. My personal opinion.

[mr burns 131]

@Burns:

I believe the community doesn't suffer if the MLOD's may not be hosted without EULA's on public sites.

What is the suffering of the community? Having an EULA file inside the zip with mlods they downloaded?

The suffering the community takes from this is the need of finding the right places to get started with modelling.

Download descriptions loaded with EULA´s would´nt help either as such documents usually scare away anyone who does´nt want to read through masses of legal mumbo jumbo.

Before this incident everything seemed fine as people willing to mod were most of the times directed to the persons who had solutions for their problems at hand (in this case unbinarized modells to work with).

As of now all this has become a much more complicated issue thanks to the efforts of BIS, pretty much like it was after ArmA´s initial release, with no tools, no tutorials, and only very few people knowing how to do stuff - or even being in the possession of the tools (o2) before others. It devides the community!

And it will stay like this until a reasonable solution is found from which both the community & the producer can benefit, which i fear, won´t ever happen.

edit: typo

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I'm not a modeller by any real measure (just getting into it), but it would appear as though if it were possible to convert from ODOL to MLOD, do your alterations and then convert back to ODOL, you should be able to host BIS content anywhere, yes? If it's even possible to do that. Binarize? Because if not, that means to me, that you'd have to model the objects yourself for any models that are not released from BIS(i.e: UH-60), from scratch. That's inefficiency at it's best.

@Sickboy

I see what you mean about the community working together and knowledge, and availability of information. From someone just getting acquianted with scripts, modelling and texturing for the first time, in OFP or ARMA, I do believe the WIKI is a rather 'head-scratching' location for info though. %100 better than nothing at all though.

@Thunderbird

Exactly.

@BIS

This seems like a hasty, retalliatory undertaking which I think will only really effect those un-seasoned addon makers/modellers that still have the enthusiasm to get in the thick of it. I understand the stance taken, but I do believe the MLOD stance should have been taken in tandem with the solution BIS is proposing; if any.

Anyway,hopefully RockofSL will have some time to work on a tutorial. Maybe a combined plethora of tutorials will help people get past the ODOL editing issue and create their own. Hopefully.

I have to say I am amazed/dismayed and disgusted by various comments in this thread I really am.  I just don’t understand why (or how) some people do not seem to understand what’s gone on or what BIS has said.

Just so we are all on the same page:

1 – Synide released the MLODs without BIS’s permission or apparent knowledge in the hope of helping the community better understand how the addons were made.  For Synide it was not an attempt to undermine BIS or their copyright.  Unfortunately it was against the ArmA EULA.

2 – BIS after several months became aware of the thread where Synide released the models after ArmedAssault.info hosted them for download. (I helped write the description list) None of those involved in the project really thought it would be a problem.  But BIS asked for the MLOD’s to be taken down, stating honestly and clearly that it was against the EULA we all agreed to, to host or distribute reverse engineered content of this kind.

3 – After a lot of Confusion about what addon makers and mods could do with content derived from these MLODs or any other “reverse engineered†source; BIS via Placebo made a statement about their usage: “We will investigate the possible release of further MLODs officially, to counteract this unfortunate situation where BIS' copyrighted work was already released to the community and is apparently being further used to create custom content.â€

4 – If you care to spend some time reading Placebo’s posts on the various threads you might discover that there are several key points

<ul>i) BIS took action to protect their IP and copyright – as is their right and the right of any addon maker etc

ii) It is inferred in various posts that BIS wish to keep the details of the ODOLv40 format ‘secret’ in an attempt to prevent the widespread ‘piracy’ and permissions issues that were prevalent in the OFP community as well as to protect their own IP and copyright.

iii) It is not BIS’ intent to restrict or kill off the community but to ensure we follow the rules they set out for us.

iv) BIS has promised to look into way to help the community by releasing more MLODs with documentation to find an acceptable solution for everyone concerned.

v) Placebo also confirmed “Its business as usual apart from we cannot MLOD the general arma content and put it on a server for public download which is fair enough.  Nothing has really changed on the Modding scene.†(OK those are my words but he replied “Quoted for Truth)  which would suggest we are ok to continue on using/inheriting form BIS made content as long as it is only used for ArmA and not ported or converted to other games or uses.

The way we worked in OFP has changed accept it.  There is unlikely to be an ArmA version of ODOLexplorer publically available. (Personally I don’t think there should be one - if you want to know how something works ask the author) Move on and adapt.  BIS are looking into releasing a more complete set of the model in MLOD format with supporting documentation.  So you have a choice, you can continue on as you are trying to learn new stuff and making your own models or you can wait until BIS release their promised content.  But either way please stop whining about it.

As for the community.  I have some pretty strong opinions myself.  Some of which pivot around some people and their attitudes.  I will not go into it here as I am sure it will be interpreted as flaming but the attitude of the community needs a change of direction if it going to survive.  Too many people here are under the mistaken impression that BIS and community owes them something for their efforts.

As I said at the start of this thread, what we need isn’t the MLODs; its tutorials and documentation explaining how the game works and uses the models.  Lots of “How to…†tutorials and decent Frequently asked questions system.  Those that want to modify the existing base models should lobby BIS for those models to be released as proper MLOD examples with the supporting model.cfg file etc but event hen they will need to know how the game engine works to do anything with them.

The current BIKI entries are worse than useless in a lot of cases.  They may contain the salient points of information but very few of these precious articles have practical examples.  In the last week alone I’ve had 7 requests to help explain various bits of info on the BIKI.  Some of which I don’t understand either.

Key Problems

- Most articles are written in such clinical language that it’s hard for the average user to understand let alone a beginner.

- Content is very poorly explained

- Very few examples are given

- The Search function is very limited

- Its hard to find related articles because people often don’t add the section tags properly

And before people jump up and down saying “well change the BIKI thenâ€, in some cases I’ve seen it done by a willing 3rd party only to have the original author edit it back. I’ve even ended up in an all out argument on IRC with one of these “authorsâ€

- People need to stop being precious about the content on the BIKI.

- They need to give practical examples and explain the commands at a level that a beginner can understand.

- They need to makes sure their articles contain the right section tags

As for my own contributions, I am writing a series of Tutorials now.  They will be added to the BIKI and the RKSL site. Any other site is welcome to host them  How about some of the people in this thread do the same.

[Panda-PL- 0]

@ Feb. 05 2008,16:29)]...

Quote[/b] ]Sounds to me you're blaming the community for lack of progress.

You got that right. Pride, whining and Personal Agenda's; the cause if you ask me. If half would whine less, and the other half wouldn't let their pride come in the way, I bet it could've already been better

Half of the said community would easilly fit into my closet.

The other half is allready on vacations...

Reason is you need to be a 3D modeller and texturer first to be an ArmA addonmaker. We have a worlwide shortage of 3D artists...

I know modding teams for other games, they have the same problem as we do and in case of Unreal engine you cannot say it lacks tutorials, right?

OFP was less demanding. Anyone could make OFP addons.

This is why we had a quickstart tutorial. Now O2 is not a moddeling tool anymore.

I can make a tutorial on how to properly import models without loosing edge hardness or screwing it up in general.

Selections needed for weapons are not needed - just open any PBO dammit!

Sickboy, you could write tutorial on using PBO packers and Derap etc.

Anyway: do not expect a surge of new moddelers after we make tutorials. There won't be one. Everyone with 3D modelling skills and will is allready commited.

You should rather worry about educating the existing addonmakers and taking us to a higher level.

[sparky 0]

@Pand[pl]

i have to disagree to that point. maybe O2 unwrapping functionality isn't the best, but still is something. the rest is the same. with the old O2 for OFP and even better.

At this point i agree with Rockofsl.

In fact i knew a guy from a mod, he is a modeller and a really good, he has shown me a lot of his work.

BUT, they left ArmA for Crysis, because they couldn't find anywhere help, for how to config an addon. So, there are people who knows how to model, but when they come to face ArmA engine and the process (configs, materials, rvmats, and all the other things) they don't have a clue.

Add, to this the fact that for a lot of us, from OFP modding scene, the half of the knowledge is already known, so it was more easy for us to move on.

but for new comers it's whole mountain, and without proper help (tutorials) they just give up tries.

[4 IN 1 0]

i still couldnt get what all the fuss is about

the no.1 problem of this is that the model is being released on a public server where everyone can download it and do anything they want like editing it for fun or simply use it to gain profit as there dont even have a proper EULA statment which suggest that the model--orthrough being release on public-- are BIS own copyrighted property, which means that if someone thinks that way, they could simply use these model for their own good, and BIS could do notthing as that guy could simply get away by saying that "there is no copyright statment"

put it simple, its like ripping off BIS protective clothing while they are handling Ebola virus

[welshtrigg 0]

I must admit that the new policy somewhat restrains the freedom in terms of "Modelling".

What new policy? It's been said numerous times now, the problem arose because someone decided to rip open every ArmA model and post them on a website where anyone and everyone can download them unrestricted with no EULA or anything, if that was done with Flashpoint the same drama would have arisen, it's not a policy....

@sickboy

That comment to me closes this thread,they explained,if anybody was doing wrong for the last 5 years plus then it would have been noted,some1 ripped thier work & they not happy about it what seems fair to me.I was not attacking you as a person,but u have waded into this thread and sproting shit that has nothing to do about wots this thread is about.

Why change somthing thats not broke:How long into ofp we started seeing info about how to use/do stuff from the community??, a few years,christ they still finding new ways of doing stuff..

@RKSL

A bloody good fools guide for a noob like me and many others is a great idea. Thx

for years we watched people coming on here with other peoples work,and the mods/BIS have always stuck up for the guy who worked his nuts off to orig make the work.know to me its happend to BIS..we have always agreed in the past this is WRONG,wots the diff?

[Col. Faulkner 0]

So, there are people who knows how to model, but when they come to face ArmA engine and the process (configs, materials, rvmats, and all the other things) they don't have a clue.

For what my opinion is worth; this is exactly the problem I have been encountering.

[welshtrigg 0]

So, there are people who knows how to model, but when they come to face ArmA engine and the process (configs, materials, rvmats, and all the other things) they don't have a clue.

For what my opinion is worth; this is exactly the problem I have been encountering.

not being funny col faulker,ure not a noob,,looking at ure theads,,,,

good stuff

[4 IN 1 0]

its not that simple, what the problem is that ppl dont know how to creat a correct, up-to-date config as there is simply no open, completed, bugs free, non-bin code example for ppl to follow

[welshtrigg 0]

u played enough ofp on LOL to know better. give it time m8

[sickboy 13]

@RockOfSL: Beautifully written. I just wish that was said on the first post of the thread or available on the news sites

And great to read about tuts.

@Mr Burns: I believe most of the personal modders (not professional/for money) would rather skip the whole EULA than read it through and get scared. It's the professional market that I believe could be a problem for BI, the "other games" market.

The division of the Community is IMHO remediable by a more and better sharing of Information and Guides. Not by EULA-less availability of MLOD models of ArmA.

@Price2505: You mostly don't make sense to me mate, but nvm

@Panda: Indeed, "The Community" is myself included, so yes, I could improve aswell and write a PBO/UNPBO/Unwrap guide, just like I wrote my MP Scripting Editor Guide on the wiki

I don't aim for "Many new Modelers" but I do aim for a happier community. This doesn't start by keep on blaming BIS for everything, but by taking steps on our own and making the best out of it. I feel that starts with pimping up all the documentation on every editable area of ArmA, not just models and textures but also Scripting (My area) etc.

[max power 21]

I have an idea. I am cognicent that this may sound ignorant of how MLODs work, so bare with me:

I think that it would be really great if some modder who knew what he or she was doing would release a generic MLOD with a model that has no features but a basic shape and good topology, and all of the necessary proxies, etc. You could do a human MLOD, a wheeled vehicle MLOD, and a tank MLOD.

For school I'm going to be doing a model of a man soon. I can volunteer an earlier version of the model where I have all of the proper forms and edgeloops set up. I'm under the impression that this is the easy part, though. I have no knowledge of any kind regarding putting a model into O2 properly. If someone would like to get my back on this, I think that we can release something that the community can really use. I would be willing to give it up no strings attached, where I claim only authorship of the actual geo and release all other rights to the community.

[welshtrigg 0]

sickboy.ive been around since the demo of ofp(dont make me god) sat back and watched.now i wish to be good as some guys.its going to take years..im a new modder.u bang on about how people should help others .but ureself with ure comments like.not looking towards helping noob modders. u agreed to RkSL post?rock is doing stuff for beginners etc.and u got the cheek to say u dont understand me?

[sickboy 13]

@price, as I already mentioned earlier, you misunderstood me. If you feel the need to continue, you can find me in PM.

Let's not polute the thread with this.

[W0lle 1049]

price2505

Please write in proper english.

I think there was 3 explanations now from both Placebo and Ondrej. Everything should be clear by now, no?

[Panda-PL- 0]

So, there are people who knows how to model, but when they come to face ArmA engine and the process (configs, materials, rvmats, and all the other things) they don't have a clue.

For what my opinion is worth; this is exactly the problem I have been encountering.

We'll see what we can do about your "problem" mate .

Quote[/b] ]I think that it would be really great if some modder who knew what he or she was doing would release a generic MLOD with a model that has no features but a basic shape and good topology

I could make such "skeleton" models and configs to match them with some more advanced anims tha people have trouble with:

closed/open bolt firing weapon, handguns with external hammer, bolt-action rifles and belt-fed machineguns...

I have done those for some peopel and I see them used allready in some mods, hich makes me very happy btw.

Maybe even some new stuff aswell...

[mr burns 131]

@Mr Burns: I believe most of the personal modders (not professional/for money) would rather skip the whole EULA than read it through and get scared. It's the professional market that I believe could be a problem for BI, the "other games" market.

The division of the Community is IMHO remediable by a more and better sharing of Information and Guides. Not by EULA-less availability of MLOD models of ArmA.

True true. And i even agree that BIS has to make sure that they aren´t raped by other companies. But they cannot achieve any preemptive matters by cutting off their arms & legs ... or whatever other body parts could be referred to as the community that made the game bigger than it should´ve gotten in the first point.

My post wasn´t solely about EULA´s either. A main point in my antipathy are the many unneccessary stumble stones that are thrown in the path of ambitious modders all the time.

One could start thinking that BIS willingly dumbs down all the ressources...

But this is really getting much more than i actually wanted to post here. Not being a modder myself it´s hard not to get biased or unobjective, so therefore: im outta here

[ArmaVidz 0]

I'm not a modeller by any real measure (just getting into it),

@BIS

This seems like a hasty, retalliatory undertaking which I think will only really effect those un-seasoned addon makers/modellers that still have the enthusiasm to get in the thick of it.  

I have to say I am amazed/dismayed and disgusted by various comments in this thread I really am.

Well. That makes me all warm and fuzzy.

So basically, Rock, you are saying that if the MLOD's had been packed with a EULA it would have been fine? I hardly think so.

So synide releases the MLODS (ODOLv40 to MLOD) so that anyone can fire up the model in o2 and use it and BIS act accordingly- by asking they be removed from affiliated sites and locking threads that have to do with the subject or contain the same type of content. That's fine, it's their right to protect their IP.

It does not change the fact that it is 'retalliatory' in nature. The have reacted and have said may, might and expect something about the MLODs in the future. If it were meant to be a more 'community' minded move on BIS' part one might think they would have addressed and provided a solution, before locking threads and throwing out the 'persona non grata' statements. Whether intended or not, whether it is justified or not (it is[) that is an intimadation measure used to cause pressure to gain a desired effect. It's just kind of offensive in the manner it was carried out.

So yeah, screw the MLODs anyhow. I get that. I'll fire up o2 to learn using one of the already provided BIS meshes or I'll start with the utter basics, a box. That's fine.

edit: changed wording...

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

I think that it would be really great if some modder who knew what he or she was doing would release a generic MLOD with a model that has no features but a basic shape and good topology, and all of the necessary proxies, etc. You could do a human MLOD, a wheeled vehicle MLOD, and a tank MLOD.

As part of the tutorials I already plan to include some templates for:

1) Basic Car

– inc working suspension

– multiple turrets

2) Basic Tank

– inc working suspension

– multiple turrets

3) Basic Plane

– control surfaces

– working dampers

– weapons

– Improved handling

4) Basic Helicopter

– working dampers

– Working turret

5) Basic Boat

I have no experience (in ArmA) of setting up Individual weapons or avatars/men/units so don’t expect any from me.

[sparky 0]

And here is mine contribution (As member of OFPEC).

Ok here is my personal plans for tutorials

1)Importing from 3ds studio max (example on a weapon HWM upcoming M60 which i'm working these days)

Steps

-Importing (all the necessary procedures like recalculating normals, how to adjust uvw mapping from 3ds max to O2, etc etc...)

-creating selections

-creating LODS (general advices, and basic info)

-finalizing the model and checking of ST pont Errors and how they can be fixed WITHOUT going back to 3ds max)

-Creating materials and applying them on the model

-Creating a basic Models.cfg file for the model skeleton

-Creating the basic Config.

-Binarising the pbo.

this is the general idea, and steps may vary in order

2)Creating custom proxies for Human for vehicle usage

Steps

-Working with BIS Sample Human MLOD and with the skeleton (Basic)

-Exporting the rtm file and apply it to the sample soldier, and save the final rtm proxy position

-Making the appropriate steps in order the proxy to be visible in Buldozer And Apply this proxy to a vehicle of users desire

-Creating the needed config entries in order the proxy to work properly

3)Damage System in ArmA and How it works

-Defining the materials for the faces

-Creating the appropriate selections in HitPoints

-Model.cfg and how it works (damage class , source=dammage, type=hide)

-HitPoint classes and what they do

-Damaged Texture array in config and how it works

-Creating the dammage textures and materials

-Glass "trick" and how it works

note that these tutorials will be a result of my personal experience, and possibly there can be an other walkaround for the same topic that the tutorial covers.

[opteryx 1562]

RockofSL

Will you be making any tutorials for simple things like objects/structures? I really don't want to learn modeling but I really need terrain specific objects so a simple tutorial like that would help a lot.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

RockofSL

Will you be making any tutorials for simple things like objects/structures? I really don't want to learn modeling but I really need terrain specific objects so a simple tutorial like that would help a lot.

I will if there is a demand.  But to be honest most of my knowledge is about the more dynamic aspects of the environment.

So basically, Rock, you are saying that if the MLOD's had been packed with a EULA it would have been fine? I hardly think so.

Don’t put words in my mouth.

What I am saying is that if you want MLODs ask BIS to release the  MLODs in the same why they released the sample models.  IE with authorization and subject to a specific EULA as the original sample models were.

So synide releases information about how to convert from ODOLv40 to MLOD so that anyone can fire up the model in o2 and use it and BIS act accordingly- by asking they be removed from affiliated sites and locking threads that have to do with the subject or contain the same type of content. That's fine, it's their right to protect their IP.

You’re catching on. But you still aren’t accurate.  Synide only released the models not the tool or information he used.

It does not change the fact that it is 'retalliatory' in nature. The have reacted and have said may, might and expect something about the MLODs in the future. If it were meant to be a more 'community' minded move on BIS' part one might think they would have addressed and provided a solution, before locking threads and throwing out the 'persona non grata' statements. Whether intended or not, whether it is justified or not (it is[) that is an intimadation measure used to cause pressure to gain a desired effect. It's just kind of offensive in the manner it was carried out.

I will admit it was an unfortunate first statement to make; it lacked a proper and clear explanation that led to the confusion you and others are suffering from. But I do not see it as intimidation aimed at the greater community.  It was aimed at the person distributing unauthorized material.  Not you, unless you have something to feel guilty about…?

So yeah, screw the MLODs anyhow. I get that. I'll fire up o2 to learn using one of the already provided BIS meshes or I'll start with the utter basics, a box. That's fine.

What I am saying is that you no longer have these particular MLODs to play with.  You are only left with two official and authorized options.  Wait or try and make your own stuff.  But if you are inheriting content from the game to use in your own addons then BIS dont appear to see a problem with that.

And if you or anyone wants to continue with the BIS are “undermining us, preventing us from modding†line I can tell you the only results will be negative.  You will be helping perpetuate bad feeling and further divide the community.

If I am honest, the thing that de-motivates me more than anything else its reading these forums.  I am sick of the bullshit, the egos and the petty bickering.    Instead of complaining about what’s already happened you and others should find a way to improve the community.  Stop the petty bickering and work toward something positive.

I have enough shit in my daily life that I don’t need to see it, take it or read it on this or any forum.

[max power 21]

Seriously.  It's like some people are schizophrenic or something...  paranoid, totally detatched from reality, and socially stunted.  From some forum posters I even see features of 'word salad'.

I don't think that it's a good idea generally to let yoru sense of entitlement dictate your emotional state and how you interact socially.