Ai needs fixin!

[bangtail 0]

Lately I've been getting back into ArmA but one thing that REALLY annoys me is that the AI are really over aware. I was playing the Sabotage mission that comes with the game, armed with the M4 with that ATROCIOUS QDS sight (Come on BIS, thats a CQB sight, a la R6 environments). It is nearly impossible to sneak in as the AI always seem to know where you are.

Despite the fact that the weapon is SILENCED, shoot one guard, the rest panic and always seem to know where you are. This really ruins the immersion IMHO. This is in no way realistic or fun. The stealth aspect of the game is ruined completely by the AI being far too aware

JM2C

E

[sickboy 13]

Tried ArmA v1.09beta patch?

Tried changing ai skill and accuracy levels in your difficulty settings?

[ArmaVidz 0]

Lately I've been getting back into ArmA but one thing that REALLY annoys me is that the AI are really over aware. I was playing the Sabotage mission that comes with the game, armed with the M4 with that ATROCIOUS QDS sight (Come on BIS, thats a CQB sight, a la R6 environments). It is nearly impossible to sneak in as the AI always seem to know where you are.

Despite the fact that the weapon is SILENCED, shoot one guard, the rest panic and always seem to know where you are. This really ruins the immersion IMHO. This is in no way realistic or fun. The stealth aspect of the game is ruined completely by the AI being far too aware

JM2C

E

A fix, Durg's Vegetation Fix & TrueRangeAi. Sickboy's got some Ai enhancements as well in the Six_Pack2 kinda like TrueRangeAi.

Durgs Vegetation Fix cuts the Ai from seeing you behind foliage(trees and bushes), which should allow you to fire a silenced weapon without being spotted. Those two should help you out alot.

[benreeper 0]

Do you have a background of playing other typical shooters (COD, MOH, et al)? In Arma you can NEVER square off against the AI. The only they can shoot at you is when you are behind cover. If you are not, you will die. When the AI starts to shoot at you, leave the area immediately: you cannot trade shots with them because you have the same hit points as them. In other games, the player has more hit points and that gives the player the ability to trade punches with the AI. You cannot do that in this game.

It took me awhile to learn that in OFP and all new players have to learn this. As an example, my son would always die in missions after the FIRST careless move. When he finally learned that you have to be careful, he started to never die in the game.

Many of us have no problems with AI accuracy in the game and that comes directly from experience and play style; you have to play this game in a different way.

Also the campaign is not representative of how good the gameplay can be so try out some scenarios the editor. If this does not describe you, please disregard.

Thanks,

--Ben

[walker 0]

Hi All

I have never had a problem sneaking up on the AI and killing them with a silenced weapon but I do not miss the shot and I do not do it when there is more than one or at the very most two AI  close together. When you have more than one AI you have more than one person or a person and an AI to each target. Each player/AI has an assigned target and you go on a three count. If targets are important like say an MG possition you double up on the target.

benreeper pointed out one typical noob error of trying to trade blows with the AI, the other is the Rambo charge. Any numpty that stands, kneels, or lies down; out in the open or even behind a tree blaizing away is stupid. I or my squad get fired at by a silenced weapon. I am checking every tree and bush for smoke, flash and supressed fire. Then that tree/bush is getting full auto. Since I can do it I do not see why the AI cannot do the same.

Even smokeless rounds emit smoke, dito a silencer does not make the gun quiet and the flash supressor does not stop the gun flash. All each of them do is mitigate there respective problem a bit.

I think far too many gamers watch the Rambo movies. Real world aint like that and neither is ArmA.

Can the ArmA be a better? Damn right it can but the AI is still the best of any simulation or game bar none. I played COD through from start to finish in less than 24 hours the AI in it are that bad, just flank them they are far too one dimensional in thought patterns, by the way COD is the worst MP game ever made; how can you possibly have, more than 4 players in or indeed air stikes in an area the size of my garden, danger close does not describe it. Half the time you spawn behind you enemy. Now COD that is a rubbish game.

The other problems noobs have is confusing concealment with cover.

Bushes and trees do not body armor make. And as far as concealment goes, if you can see him he can see you. Drawing attention to your self by shooting and missing, well frankly you deserve to get shot for being that crap.

Then we come to the: I fired at the enemy and ran behind a bush/tree and they still shot me.

Yes. Well you remember when you were a kid and dady/momy played peekaboo with you from behind a blanky, at some point did you start to realise momy/dady was behind the blanket? If you did not, it just proves you are stupider than ArmA AI.

There are various fixes to increase the distance AI sees you at and increase dispersion, and as has been pointed out you can alter the settings in options. There are also as has been pointed out Vegetation fixes. If you play on one of the private servers you get it in MP too.

1.09's AI is a lot brighter. You are in for a shock if you think 1.08's AI is too bright.

Laughing my head off walker

[dmitri 0]

Learn to retreat from an engagement. Unlike other games, you cannot advance continually.

Move along ridges that allow you to quickly put the only viable cover (terrain) between yourself and the AI.

On a sidenote..

I cannot understand why certain members of these boards are campaigning for altering AI hearing. The AI need all the help they can get.

I often find myself killing 100s of AI without dying. Most of this is years of knowing that engaging at medium ranges and avoiding CQB means a guaranteed victory. Partly why my own coop missions never feature any scoped weapons. It's just too easy killing the AI this way. Sniping in coop is rubbish.

[dmakatra 1]

That was a bith harsh walker now, wasn't it? Ease up a bit, it'll make everyone's stay here a lot more enjoyable.

As for sneaking... Well, I've never been a good stealth sort of player myself. I'm more of an infantry grunt all-round really, it's what I do best. However, I have a few explanations to your frustrations, ethne:

- Equipment

AI with NV Goggles see really, really well. This could be why they are spotting you so fast. Also, binoculars will make the AI see a lot more too. I'm not too sure if scoped rifles add to their spotting ability, but I think they do. I haven't really played OFP/ArmA more than an hour here and and hour there for over year and a half so I'm a bit rusty at these things since I've forgotten half of it.

- Communication

Units in the same group will communicate with each other. Even if they do not see that their buddy is dead, they will figure it out eventually and come after you. Always take out complete groups as fast as possible. Depending on the groupLink-system that's used in the mission, you might only have a few seconds. Some missions are virtually instant, but that's just shitty design by the mission maker.

- Stance/Movement

The AI react a LOT more than you think to stance and movement. I've found out that most of the time, if you are in danger of being spotted by a sentry, it's better to just lie down and stay put, than to try to run away. Also, when sneaking, you should never stand up unless it's an emergency. If you stand up you are much, much easier to spot. I do think that movement speed also affect how easy you are to spot (i.e. running targets will be seen easier than walking targets) but I'm not too sure. Like I said, I'm a bit rusty.

Anyway, I hope this helped.

[W0lle 1050]

That was indeed a bit harsh but well he brought it straight to the point.

The AI skill level is higher then it was in OFP, it's harder now to sneak behind enemies etc. But would it be the same AI then before one would complain about that too.

The AI in 1.09 has really been improved significantly, if one still have problems then either he needs to overthink his tactics or just lower the AI skill in the difficulty settings.

Of course the AI keeps shooting at you if you run behind a bush or tree. Why they shouldn't, just because they can't see you anymore.

As for the silenced weapons, the only silenced one is the MP5SD6 and even though one would not hear the shot, the falling man definitely makes a sound.

The M4 SD is not a silenced but a suppressed weapon, that's a little difference as Walker already said.

The AI might not "see" the falling team member but they realize that one member has been killed. If you are near enough you sometimes can hear them saying "... is down".

The Aimpoint sight is a valid point but that's something minor, I switch to an ironsight weapon whenever I can but it's not that disturbing.

One of the things that must be fixed is the fact that the AI knows exactly where you are once you shot them with an M136 etc. even then when they were inside a tank looking away from you.

After all newcomers to this game should realize that this one is played different then the usual shooters, CS, BF, COD or whatever they are called.

I had the same problems and frustrations back in 2001 playing the first OFP missions and wondered why they kill me with one shot while in other games it wasn't a problem to take a magazine or even more. I was close to chuck away the game - thank god I didn't.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Another thing thats in 1.08 too:

Why AI keeps shooting -without aiming- during animations from different positions eg. unit is prone and stands up? Sometimes they shoot at their own teammates even in first seconds when they start running. Test this in combat with machinegunner units...

Little AI "rambo" feature or weird bug?

[AWDrift 0]

In stealth missions I've found it easier to either snipe from long distance or not shoot anyone at all. It's not like MGS where guards actually investigate the body and then raise the alarm. As soon as a squad member stops responding they assume the worst. If you can find a time where the A.I. is not getting orders for awhile and is far from his buddies you can take him out. Other than that it's best to just try and sneak around them.

[mr_centipede 31]

i got another weird experience with the AI. they seems to unable to detect the enemy in close quarters. they looked as if the saw someone in front of them, yet were unable to identify it as a friend or foe. i got 1 experience last night, one SLA grenadier became a suicide bomber. 2 blufor aproaching him, (not shooting, as if they were trying to apprehend him) then the sla guy decided to blow them to pieces with his underbarrel GL. along with himself ofcourse. too bad i didnt captured it in FRAPS. sometimes the AI are just too damn funny little guys

[smellyjelly 0]

For me, the biggest problem with the AI is the pathfinding, which I find too predictable. Another big problem is just the lack of intelligence, like using cover and stuff.

Both of those problems seem to be fixed or at least better from the videos I've seen, so it's not too big of a deal.

However, the most distracting bug, the one that makes me just want to quit the game and play something else, (although I always come back   ), is when the AI runs right in front of an enemy, but neither care about each other. I would think that they would try to kill each other as fast as possible, after all they are just a few feet apart, but no, one would rather just run around like a hopped up chicken and the other just continues to try and kill someone 50 feet away.

To add embarrassment to injury though, sometimes after several seconds they do decide to kill eachother, but instead of simply turning to aim at the enemy and killing him, they both have to start spinning in circles until eventually one slowly goes prone and kills the other.

Ok, for anyone who hasn't played Arma, maybe I'm exaggerating a little. This doesn't happen all the time, at least not that I've noticed, but hopefully this is fixed in Arma II.

On a more positive note, I thought the stealth works well in this game. Once when I was playing the official stealth "single mission", the one where I'm supposed to destroy the tanks, I entered the base and turned to hide along the fence while I survey. To my surprise an enemy walked into the base and right past me, but didn't see me because I was behind the fence. I'm not sure if the AI was actually programmed not to see through objects, but I was surprised because I noticed that unless a game is based soley on stealth, there is usually absolutely none in it.

[kuIoodporny 45]

A part of ArmA called "Radio Protocol" (look in main config.bin ) was giving immerse in OFP... however today it looks more like kind of debugging console connected with basic voice synth

I hope that ArmA II would have more advanced radio communication system (but "MS Sam the default computer voice" basis won't be the best choice) :P

[bangtail 0]

Thanks for the replies. I don't really agree with a lot of the "elitest" stuff some of you are saying to try and defend what is essentially a flawed system, but I've become accustomed to the few people here who feel the need to condescend to others with their infinite "wisdom"

FYI, I've played OFP and designed missions for it since it was released, ditto for ArmA. I have no problem with the AI being sharp etc but this isn't a case of sharp. It's quite simply a case of the AI being made aware of my position through no use of sight, sound (their senses etc) but rather the system telling them where I am.

This has gone on since OFP. My original point stands. I shoot a lone guard in the head, silenced and the whole base immediately goes crazy AND knows where I am. I'm sorry to say this in no way the "realistic" reaction that some of you people think it is. I will concede that it may be a possible reaction if the soldier in question happens to be standing a few feet from other soldiers but this was not the case.

@Walker : Quite typically the type of "elitest" I was referring to earlier in my post. Does it make you feel better to try and put people down mate? (Emphasis on try). The AI is not brighter, its just cheap. I play PRMM (A BF2 Mod) and that is all non AI players and you can really see how people react on the battlefield. Their reaction to being opened up on with an M249 from cover is not to casually crouch and headshot you before the 3rd bullet has left MG.

It is, in fact, you who are delusional if you actually believe the AI in ArmA is imitating human beings in combat because it is not.

I shouldn't have to be using addons to make the AI behave more realistically. Your "uber" realistic game should have working AI out of the box. It really reminds me of the old R6 games (1 and 2) where the terrorists would be facing the other way and would headshot you before you even knew what was happening.

In closing, Im all for smart and devious AI and I've seen it in quite a few games. I'm not saying it is all bad in ArmA because it isnt but it leaves much to be desired in certain situations. I will check out Sickboys full pack but I have avoided it in the past becasue it conflicts with some of the others I use.

Ta Ta

E

PS : @wolle - Is the sound design really that specific that it differentiates between the MP5SD6 and the M4 with the Knight Arms? If so then nice sound design

[jackass888 0]

truerange and 6thsense ai fix make the longrange detection and engagement more realistic but in close distance its totally unfair. Eg: Ghille sniper,night,grass,hiding in tree and bush formation, enemy has no NVg-s and after 1 shot and some 1 minute wait they know my exact position. And supressive fire scripts/mods make it even worse. So stealth is useless with the current ai.

[froggyluv 2136]

@ethne

How can you possibly compare Arma's AI to PRMM's human players? Of course no AI in the world is comparable to human player's for obvious reasons-especially in a wide-open environment such as this. I think most would agree with you that we'd like to see the AI improved but you speak as if the  level of AI you desire is already the standard in the gaming industry and BIS is straggling far behind. Games like R6 Vegas are able to give the perception of smart AI by limiting you to 2 squaddies in a very contained environment. I'd like to know which games your talking about whith "smart and devious AI' in this type of open-world environments with hundreds of potential AI and I'll be the first to order it mate.

Edit-Crysis was supposed to deliver such enviable AI with a HUGE budget behind it and I was able to find it's exploits in the first half-hour. It aint that easy to do.

[NeMeSiS 11]

FYI, I've played OFP and designed missions for it since it was released, ditto for ArmA. I have no problem with the AI being sharp etc but this isn't a case of sharp. It's quite simply a case of the AI being made aware of my position through no use of sight, sound (their senses etc) but rather the system telling them where I am.

Thats just impossible, what is possible is that the guy who was shot by you started knowing about you and instantly told his groupmembers about your percieved position, combined with the sound of a not fully silenced weapon your position may have been quite easy for the AI to figure out.

EDIT: At least the AI started knowing about you in OFP after you shot them, i cant remember how it is in ArmA but i assume its more or less the same.

You speak like the game randomly uses the reveal command on you..

[bangtail 0]

No, if I put a silenced 9mm round in the back of a lone guards head he aint telling nobody nothing. Plain and simple!

@Froggyluv - Im not saying that ArmA should perfectly mimic human players, that would be a ridiculous expectation with the present state of technology.

What I was, in fact, implying is that the ArmA AI behaviour is in diametric opposition to the way people would actually react to certain situations.

Regards

E

[benreeper 0]

Dude you say you shouldn't have to use addons to make the AI better then you compare vanilla Arma to a BF2 mod that has no AI!

It's not elitist if it's the truth. You compare Arma's AI to stuff that doesn't exit and then complain.

--Ben

[bangtail 0]

ROFLMAO, talk about taking things out of context!

If you could read you would have understood that I was not comparing them as games, rather making a point that the AI in ArmA does NOT react the way that soldiers would in certain situations.

E

[froggyluv 2136]

@Froggyluv - Im not saying that ArmA should perfectly mimic human players, that would be a ridiculous expectation with the present state of technology.

What I was, in fact, implying is that the ArmA AI behaviour is in diametric opposition to the way people would actually react to certain situations.

Regards

E

I think your expectations were a little too high for OFP 1.5. What your talking about is the Holy Grail of AI. Huge squad movement who move as independent squads,constantly adapting and improvising, using cover; suppression, air support,helo's,planes intelligently, house interiors,artillery, all happining on a gigantic scale. Hell I want that game too

Your asking alot for a small developer out of Czech to deliver this to you straight out of the box in one fell swoop. It's going to be a long process to get to that point, but honestly, I believe our best shot is with BIS for the long run. What other game handles so many AI units by land air and sea? I think Game 2 will deliver SOME of these features with modder's helping along the way. So why not just enjoy the ride along the way- eventually we'll get there.

[walker 0]

Hi all

In direct reply to ethne

I have been programming computers since the times of computers that filled several rooms that required a staff of people people just to keep them running, that were programmed by holes in a stack of buff coloured cards or a ticker tape strip and stored their programs on giant tape recorders while their 1 K of memory existed in a climate controled clean room.

The first games I programmed were things like hunt the mugwump text based and no video screen just a balistic dot matrix printer so powerful it had to be bolted to the floor; when an AI consisted of an X Y reducing algorithm that meant the AI would get stuck in any corner in the tragets direction.

At the other end I have been involved in systems analysis design and engineering of AI and heuristic algorithms in everything from welding to linear programming and 3D AI in simulated environments. I have even programmed an analogue system; something I that I doubt a single other person on this forum has done.

If you wish to improve the AI in ArmA or any game or in terms of human knowledge of the subject; then whining about it does nothing.

You posts also show an ignorance of the project management and systems analysis and design. You cannot goad the staff at BI to do better; if you knew your Maslow you would understand this. The assumption that the staff at BI or indeed the wealth of mod teams working with ArmA are not trying to make things better makes your post look to say the least childish.

There is not a better AI in any game. It is already the best AI of any game or simulation system. So much so that the military use it preference to any other system.

Is it perfect? No! Nothing in programming is. Programming is constant striving to improve on the last version. BIS has spent more time, skill and effort on improving its AI than any other game.

The proof of that is in the fact that the AI of ArmA can: fly, drive, walk and swim; over tens of kilometers, performing fire and maneuver procedures and aranging medics, fuel and repair; deciding friend from foe, SEEING and Hearing and creating a conceptual model of its vicinity both static and mobile on which to work out strategies and tactics, assessing targeting in a 3D environment and just plane existing in an artificial 3D world.

If you are realy interested in improving ArmA AI then start here and begin to learn:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Main_Page

Next get an FSM editor tool there are some listed here

http://www.armedassault.info/index.php?cat=utilities&page=2

They will let you do the basic algorithmic, expert system type improvements.

To get into serously improving AIs you need a text editor and start reading these pages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

You need a grounding in basic philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

you need to start understaning neural nets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_networks

and chaos theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

In particular the concept of strange atractors

A degree in psychology might be usefull as might officer training as we are dealing with a military simulator.

Because we are simulating humans in a 3D world an understanding of biomechanics and cognative science. Many of the above disciplines overlap and it at these overlaps that much of the important work in improving AI takes place.

Then spread out from there via the external links.

Next you need to start reading major AI papers and publications, your public library can get these for you for free if you cannot afford to buy them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ligence

Those of us working in this field do all the above and more.

If I sound elitist to you I am sorry; your simple statement of ArmA "AI needs fixin!" is as useful as "We should all live in peace." Fine words now what are you going to do to improve it?

Kind Regards walker

[benreeper 0]

Very nice and clear explanation Walker.

I'd like to add that complaining about something, that has no peer and then comparing it to the same non-existent peers shows a definite bias and dislike of the thing.

--Ben

[bangtail 0]

Hi all

In direct reply to ethne

I have been programming computers since the times of computers that filled several rooms that required a staff of people people just to keep them running, that were programmed by holes in a stack of buff coloured cards or a ticker tape strip and stored their programs on giant tape recorders while their 1 K of memory existed in a climate controled clean room.

The first games I programmed were things like hunt the mugwump text based and no video screen just a balistic dot matrix printer so powerful it had to be bolted to the floor; when an AI consisted of an X Y reducing algorithm that meant the AI would get stuck in any corner in the tragets direction.

At the other end I have been involved in systems analysis design and engineering of AI and heuristic algorithms in everything from welding to linear programming and 3D AI in simulated environments. I have even programmed an analogue system; something I that I doubt a single other person on this forum has done.

If you wish to improve the AI in ArmA or any game or in terms of human knowledge of the subject; then whining about it does nothing.

You posts also show an ignorance of the project management and systems analysis and design. You cannot goad the staff at BI to do better; if you knew your Maslow you would understand this. The assumption that the staff at BI or indeed the wealth of mod teams working with ArmA are not trying to make things better makes your post look to say the least childish.

There is not a better AI in any game. It is already the best AI of any game or simulation system. So much so that the military use it preference to any other system.

Is it perfect? No! Nothing in programming is. Programming is constant striving to improve on the last version. BIS has spent more time, skill and effort on improving its AI than any other game.

The proof of that is in the fact that the AI of ArmA can: fly, drive, walk and swim; over tens of kilometers, performing fire and maneuver procedures and aranging medics, fuel and repair; deciding friend from foe, SEEING and Hearing and creating a conceptual model of its vicinity both static and mobile on which to work out strategies and tactics, assessing targeting in a 3D environment and just plane existing in an artificial 3D world.

If you are realy interested in improving ArmA AI then start here and begin to learn:

http://community.bistudio.com/wiki/Main_Page

Next get an FSM editor tool there are some listed here

http://www.armedassault.info/index.php?cat=utilities&page=2

They will let you do the basic algorithmic, expert system type improvements.

To get into serously improving AIs you need a text editor and start reading these pages

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Artificial_intelligence

You need a grounding in basic philosophy

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

you need to start understaning neural nets

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neural_networks

and chaos theory

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory

In particular the concept of strange atractors

A degree in psychology might be usefull as might officer training as we are dealing with a military simulator.

Because we are simulating humans in a 3D world an understanding of biomechanics and cognative science. Many of the above disciplines overlap and it at these overlaps that much of the important work in improving AI takes place.

Then spread out from there via the external links.

Next you need to start reading major AI papers and publications, your public library can get these for you for free if you cannot afford to buy them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki....ligence

Those of us working in this field do all the above and more.

If I sound elitist to you I am sorry; your simple statement of ArmA "AI needs fixin!" is as useful as "We should all live in peace." Fine words now what are you going to do to improve it?

Kind Regards walker

@Walker : OMFG, please remove yourself from your own A$$.

I wont even entertain anything else you have to say as to avoid flaming, same goes for you Ben.

Enjoy

E

[bangtail 0]

@Froggyluv - Im not saying that ArmA should perfectly mimic human players, that would be a ridiculous expectation with the present state of technology.

What I was, in fact, implying is that the ArmA AI behaviour is in diametric opposition to the way people would actually react to certain situations.

Regards

E

I think your expectations were a little too high for OFP 1.5. What your talking about is the Holy Grail of AI. Huge squad movement who move as independent squads,constantly adapting and improvising, using cover; suppression, air support,helo's,planes intelligently, house interiors,artillery, all happining on a gigantic scale. Hell I want that game too

Your asking alot for a small developer out of Czech to deliver this to you straight out of the box in one fell swoop. It's going to be a long process to get to that point, but honestly, I believe our best shot is with BIS for the long run. What other game handles so many AI units by land air and sea? I think Game 2 will deliver SOME of these features with modder's helping along the way. So why not just enjoy the ride along the way- eventually we'll get there.

Maybe my expectations were a little too high. I like ArmA very much and I am impressed with 1.09. TBH it bought me back to the game. I have started designing missions again and I am definitely having a good time with it.

The AI is by no means "all bad". I think I made that pretty clear in a previous post in this thread. I was merely commenting on a facet of the AI that I found annoying and unrealistic.

As you said, I'm sure in time, we will get there.

Regards

E