So can anyone tell me why everyone is playing coop

[celery 8]

Hi all

So cellery wants everyone to play his style and his style only.

Nice of him to be clear about his view point.

Kind Regards walker

What style are you talking about, wallkerr? Do you actually prefer to play with broken animations?

[RN Malboeuf 12]

Smoother animations could help ArmA....

I am pretty sure a wise person once said you can't make everyone happy though. I don't think the animation glitches are the issue. Although they would definately improve game play, I do not believe that will warrant PvP players from other games coming over here.

Of course BIS is trying to please its customers. But, it can't make everyone happy. As stupid as it sounds, I still think the rigid animations adds suspense and makes it a lot more fun. BIS might have thought... since there are so many other games out there for CTF/TKOTH/TDM why not make something for the people that love coops. Is that outside of the realm of possibility?

Like I said, smoother animations could help the game play out. I am glad to see people like Q and Wisper doing something about it.

[Inkompetent 0]

Smoother would be really nice, since now once an animation starts you are locked to do just that.

Definitely DON'T make things faster though. A soldier wearing 16kg of Interceptor plates, helmet, a camelback, weapon and ammunition can't move as fast if he was a gymnast wearing a nylon g-string.

[The_Captain 0]

What I want to know is... why does competitive PvP always imply CTF? Though the CTF scene in OFP was substantial, the basic 16v16 Capture and Hold maps (popularized by Tactician & the SHoP server, among others) were quite a lot of fun, and usually there were at least 2-3 full servers if not more. Why have we not seen maps like these considered for public Arma play? It seems with the slightly larger battlegrounds and increased usage of vehicles, these maps would rely *less* on quick animation precision than CTF maps, though the animations certainly remain important. Thus this map style should be more suited to competitive play than the quicker CTF maps which place more importance on individual player movement precision.

(I don't count Berzerk as a CnH equivalent, as Berzerk is much closer to the old Battlefield 1985 than the simple CnH missions. The CnH maps had vehicles respawning at base, usually 3 non-spawnable control points for both sides to capture, a point tally increased when objectives were held, and a smaller selection of gear than berzerk. Simple and with good overall cooperation among publics. My favorite job was as a transport pilot ferrying troops to the drop zones...)

[.kju 3244]

Quote[/b] ]why does competitive PvP always imply CTF?

It does not. CTF is only a scoring system.

It is about CQB and large scale combat.

Every gameplay aspect is suffering a lot by the broken anims.

AI is too slow, so coop players don't notice it or play their 'all

have scoped weapon + unlimited AT' style most of the time.

Same goes for evo. Just look how people play it. It's abuse AI

behavior and trick their routines only.

Of course ArmA has introduced crucial changes and bugs for

vehicles, tanks and air units as well:

~ Auto centering issue

~ Sniperlike no skill AT weapons

~ Auto target AA - hit percentage 99,99%

~ No situational awareness in tanks due to occlude and obstruct sounds simulation

~ Tanks are dead from one of almost any AT weapon (infantry or vehicle based weapon)

~ OFP/ArmA's right click targeting system (lock/radar system)

~ Changes of the crosshair simulation

~ Unplayable air units - way too sensitive and on the other hand in other aspects way too lethargic

~ Any ground vehicle can easily shoot down helos with one or two hits

And there is always these in addition:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">game destroying cheats, broken transitions, no stability,

bad fps, mouse lag, broken sound in MP for a long time etc.

For more check the list of PROPER addons. You can find a good

deal of more gameplay hurting changes of ArmA change there.

[sickboy 13]

Quote[/b] ]Using mods on a public server would have been a death blow to visitor numbers.

... And all the problems and bugs you mention, is not a death blow?

In any case, they're clientside addons as Q explains, great solution right?

Quote[/b] ]Major faults such as those should be fixed on the developer side. Mods would have been a good solution if they could be distributed as an automatic download when connecting to a server.

Feeling bad about this and asking them every week does not seem to change much does it? At some point you would guess ppl would stop asking and either quit or start making solutions on their own, or start taking solutions like q's

Quote[/b] ]In my view BI should concentrate way more on gamers.

Easier life, more fun, more money.

I'm not entirely sure I agree here. As I believe the whole market is already doing that and making just "the next standard game" that makes huge sales...

@Q: What are the improvements in v1.09beta which are highlight's for PvP players? I believe improvements with mouse input and animation shifts etc were amongst the features?

[whisper 0]

Quote[/b] ]In my view BI should concentrate way more on gamers.

Easier life, more fun, more money.

I'm not entirely sure I agree here. As I believe the whole market is already doing that and making just "the next standard game" that makes huge sales...

Not really, cause OFP/ArmA can, besides "realism over gameplay", bring other things other game are far to have. Just a matter of finding the gameplay going fine with this

[sickboy 13]

The ultimate solution would've been configurability and delivering alternative solutions to what is available.

Too bad BI did not work that out. But I stay at my previous point, there are solutions out there,  they require client addons, some require server addons, and some require both to have the addon. Basicly, partly (I dont know how much) solutions are available; Why not take it?

(Maybe im writing the obvious here etc, but I don't understand why it's so problematic to resolve)

[*] What's wrong with educating your visitors in getting addons that make the game more like they want it?

[*] Can't Yoma's Addon Synchronizer be used?

[*] Why must the solution come from BI? You want the game in a certain way, BI did it in another way... To make the game enjoyable for you, it must be edited. So either BI should change it (doesn't seem they do), so I see only 2 options left: a) Quit   b) Start coughing up solutions on your own (or hell why not team up with everyone else who thinks and feels the same and work on a joint project to get this sorted?

Isn't the road to salvation (lol) achieved this way:

[*] Figure out the problems & causes

[*] Eliminate/Workaround the problems

For almost every problem is a solution, e.g:

Problem: Animations are too slow

Solution: Make animations faster

New Problem: Addon Distribution

--> Find a solution for the new problem too (Server Name, Server join message, wiki/web page, Yoma's addon synchronizer, create an own custom solution).

"But Yoma's addon synchronizer, or solution X, Y, Z   are not Community standards!" ...  Community standards don't invent themselves...  SET an example, team up with others like you, and become the standard!

Bi doesn't seem to do it, they had more than a year to do it. I wouldnt expect any miracles, only hope for ArmA2.

Not really, cause OFP/ArmA can, besides "realism over gameplay", bring other things other game are far to have. Just a matter of finding the gameplay going fine with this

Ok, agreed

The idea to work out the animations is a nice one too. But if the server admins don't want to use addons, like Q displayed, it's not gonna help

[JeRK 0]

Quote[/b] ]why does competitive PvP always imply CTF?

It does not. CTF is only a scoring system.

It is about CQB and large scale combat.

Every gameplay aspect is suffering a lot by the broken anims.

AI is too slow, so coop players don't notice it or play their 'all

have scoped weapon + unlimited AT' style most of the time.

Same goes for evo. Just look how people play it. It's abuse AI

behavior and trick their routines only.

Of course ArmA has introduced crucial changes and bugs for

vehicles, tanks and air units as well:

~ Auto centering issue

~ Sniperlike no skill AT weapons

~ Auto target AA - hit percentage 99,99%

~ No situational awareness in tanks due to occlude and obstruct sounds simulation

~ Tanks are dead from one of almost any AT weapon (infantry or vehicle based weapon)

~ OFP/ArmA's right click targeting system (lock/radar system)

~ Changes of the crosshair simulation

~ Unplayable air units - way too sensitive and on the other hand in other aspects way too lethargic

~ Any ground vehicle can easily shoot down helos with one or two hits

And there is always these in addition:

<table border="0" align="center" width="95%" cellpadding="0" cellspacing="0"><tr><td>Code Sample </td></tr><tr><td id="CODE">game destroying cheats, broken transitions, no stability,

bad fps, mouse lag, broken sound in MP for a long time etc.

For more check the list of PROPER addons. You can find a good

deal of more gameplay hurting changes of ArmA change there.

Sorry to say this, but you sound like someone who's simply not good at playing ArmA and doesn't want to admit it. I can control air units and hit targets with ease, tanks aren't meant to go around without cover anyway etc.

Also, some things you say are a problem (mainly vehicle survivability) is much better in 1.09b. The rest is simply the mapper's fault cause he gave everyone launchers and stuff.

[celery 8]

Quote[/b] ]Using mods on a public server would have been a death blow to visitor numbers.

... And all the problems and bugs you mention, is not a death blow?

In any case, they're clientside addons as Q explains, great solution right?

No, the Gay Bar was hugely popular until it was shut down. I wasn't even aware of such a mod when the server was still up so maybe something could have been done to promote it to the community, other than creating a low profile thread somewhere in the mod forum. If it really is just client side, maybe it would have been OK.

Sorry to say this, but you sound like someone who's simply not good at playing ArmA and doesn't want to admit it. I can control air units and hit targets with ease, tanks aren't meant to go around without cover anyway etc.

Also, some things you say are a problem (mainly vehicle survivability) is much better in 1.09b. The rest is simply the mapper's fault cause he gave everyone launchers and stuff.

You seriously don't know Q then?

Of course you can learn how the poor vehicle controls work but that no longer has anything to do with how they work for real and ArmA is supposed to be a simulator. How you use those vehicles has nothing whatsoever to do with what those vehicles' properties are and frankly it sounds like you want to take the attention away from the game's faults and put it on Q's supposed noobness at playing it.

[lwlooz 0]

I am very sorry that I have to stir things up again , but this is highly preposterous.

I have high respect for Q , even tho I don't buy the argument that you only know what proper controls are if you played in a league for years . I played this game series as well , but apparently every CTF and league player seems to have the infallible wisdom of how things are supposed to be.

That is madness. How is that objective? What if you got used to flawed elements in the engine during OFP gaming? What if having arcadey settings suits your style of player better? How are the helicopter controls worse for example? Most of the complaints I see on this forums are wild opinions thrown around without much hard proof behind them(The animation transistions being an exception , but even that issue is way overrated, it does not make the game unplayable).

And even if there are issues that you can really reproduce,that apply to everyone and aren't just subjective opinions , most of the list in Q's list is fixed with addons/mods and Q has released quite a lot of mod changes to adapt the game better to his view. That is constructive and that is something that I applaud.

But what is the point if the people that whine about this game sucking so bad and "We are leaving BIS,you reputation bad!!" don't even grasp the ridiculously easy concept of downloading addons . What sort of a lazy,brain-dead(while computer gaming) person you have to be to NOT download an addon that improves the game for you.

I think we should not discuss PvP vs Coop all the time , that is stupid. What we should discuss is with what right people that are not willing to put even 1 sec of effort into this game to make it worthwhile while the rest of us puts in hours/days have the bloody idea that they can go around calling shots and ruining it for everyone else as forcing BIS to adapt to their "effort-less can't be arsed" gaming.

[JeRK 0]

You know what? How about we here in this thread try to think up a good PvP map?

My opinion is that the game is okay, could be better, but it definitely isn't as broken like many people in this thread say it is. Sure, you need to get used to it and it and that isn't realistic, but since the PR mod messed up (temporarily) with it's latest version ArmA's the best tactical shooter there is IMO.

All it needs is a good PvP map. Berzerk is well made but the maker(s) put NO thought whatsoever in how it'll be played, Hexenkessel is an attempt to turn ArmA into UT, and the other maps, well, there barely is one.

So, let's try to get some ideas together, and try to get a brand new map going. For basic gameplay, I'd say squad based, linear sector control. Each team has 2 squads, 1 air crew and 1 vehicle crew on a large map, each squad is made up out of:

1 Marksman (M16A4 ACOG/AK74 PSO)

2 riflemen (M4 aimpoint/AK74)

1 Medic (M4 ironsights/AK74U)

1 Machine gunner (M240/PK)

1 AT soldier (M4 ironsights+M136/AK74U+RPG)

The Squad leader gets elected every 5 minutes to avoid a stupid one. All squad members can ONLY spawn on the leader (around or in the same vehicle) to keep them together, the leader can spawn at the team's main base.

A vehicle crew is 2 crewmen (each armed with MP5s, even the east team) and they can vote for their next vehicle when the old one goes boom, either an M113 (for both teams, APC's aren't balanced) or a Tank.

The air crew is made out of 2 pilots (armed with MP5s). They can both individually choose their helicopter, either AH6 or MH6. When they die, they choose their their chopper and spawn in it already flying.

That's 12 infantry soldiers, 2 vehicle crewmen and 2 pilots per team, so 16 players per team and in total 32.

The maps would be based around towns, with a "linear" capture system, so you have to capture the points in order. This keeps the fight around a certain point at all times, rather than turning things into a snipe fest.

Each team has a main base with 2 MG cars and 2 unarmed ones to transport the squads (these cars DO NOT respawn. After they're down, call for the chopper or M113 for transport). It's where squad leaders spawn and you'll get killed for going close to the enemy's one UNLESS your team has captured all other points, then it's your last objective. After capturing it, you win.

Here's a horribly ugly MS Paint example of a battle around Cayo, for 32 players. Note how the area is way smaller than berzerk, and things will get quite damn stuffed at a full server. This makes the battle really intense and allows flanking to be both risky yet when done properly incredibly powerful. It also makes AH6s quite dangerous, rather than the pieces of junk they are in berzerk.

http://img176.imageshack.us/img176/760/mapideaaj6.png

(Circles are inaccurately placed, blame MSpaint)

Small red circle: SLA base

Large red Circle: SLA safe zone

Black circles: Capturable points

Small Blue Circle: US base

Large blue circle: US safe zone

Black lines: Order in which the points are captured.

Contribute ideas, what would be the ultimate PvP map in your opinion? Would you change anything on my idea? Am I a complete nutjob?

[walker 0]

Hi all

I think we need to make things clear:

The original question asked in the topic of the thread was:

Quote[/b] ]So can anyone tell me why everyone is playing coop

First of all that is a straw man argument. Not everyone is playing coop. Most play a mix of PvP and coop. I and others gave examples of what people are playing.

The originator of the question would with a little searching have found many PvP servers. Berzerk is still as popular as ever on the Public servers and many of them are admined. I have never found trouble getting on a 20 or 30 player a side berzerk server but I always check it is admined.

You then have servers running Evolution, people leave Evo on a server and until an admin goes in it continues to run. It is a problem easily solved. If you are the only person on the server and it is a public server get admin and change it.

The private servers are all admined but tend to play their own styles, people misinterpret them as being coop. They are just running addons and new game types.

Some people think that CTF and DM are the Be All and End All of PvP and that everything else is coop. This is not the case.

First a little History

Early CTF and DM in OFP

Some people argue that the heyday of OFP/ArmA was the period soon after OFPs release and before the tools were released an early OFP period where the only games were CTF and DM usually on small shoebox areas limited by kill barriers and objects placed to prevent players from going outside the playing field. Games like "desert fight" two sides in what was basically sandbags laid out in a square with corridors between two ends where a flag could be captured; essentially it is a kind of football game. The purpose of such games was to gain points, it has little to do with military it is paint ball without the fresh air. At this time most clans were based around leagues or ladders and leagues competed with each other for points. In this period the MP games in OFP was much like any other FPS game.

Coop Scene

Also at that time there was a coop scene these varied from those who only played coop to those who played some PvP and coop. Many of the coop players wanted realism and many were former or serving soldiers or those who have an interest in military history. From these people other new game types were created. Capture and and Hold from which the Riverbattle and its relatives sprang. Then Attack and Defend which were based in military scenarios and a shift from single side coop to multi side PvP coop.

As more and more new game styles were created CTF and DM started to decline when there were more PvP options they lost their monopoly.

early modding Scene

As the modding tools were released and people became more competent in understanding scripting. Modding started to become a more important factor; mostly from the coop and the PvP Coop elements and several clans moved from just gaming to modifying the game to their needs. Modding became more and more important in OFP. This again lead to a decline in CTF and DM.

As more mods came out and people started playing Vietnam mods like SEB NAM and Modern systems like Ballistic Addon Studios mod; these lead to more and more coop and PvP coop as well as an apearance of A&D PvP in leagues and ladders, the decline in CTF and DM continued.

CTI

Over time the more and more new styles of play took over, With the appearance strategy interfaces like the command engine and scripts that allowed content creation on the fly while the server was running and the rising size of battlefield type maps C&H got bigger and bigger until Capture the Island (CTI) appeared and I for one remember 2 day sessions capturing Nogova eventually like with CTF an DM I and many others got bored with that too but it is the progenitor of Evolution in ArmA and so continues to be a source of inspiration.

Modding OFP the Heyday

Then the realism mods like WGL and the FDF, CoC released UA and many other realism systems were created. Large scale coops and PvP coops began to appear. CTF and DM continued to decline. Most people consider this the heyday of OFP.

CTF and DM were already in decline before ArmA

Since all this decline in CTF and DM happened before ArmA, it cannot be argued that CTF and DM declined because of ArmA.

I argue these groups of people voted with their feet. Essentially like me they got bored with CTF and DM. They were looking for new game types with more fun.

ArmA continuing the rise in PvP Coop

ArmA has continued the modifiability of OFP there was a bit of a burp while the modding teams digested new tools and a new environment. ArmA has and had bugs that needed correcting but the process has continued as it will with ArmAII.

The KFC crowd probably put the last nail in the coffin for the CTF and DM guys. Most newcomers come in from the the other FPS games looking for a change from rail and shoebox games that limit you. Their first port of call would be an MP mission type they know so CTF or DM, but most public servers do not have an Admin and do not run addon checks. So they would quickly switch to servers that did a little research on the forums finds the clans operating admined servers. An Admin will happily stay playing a complex coop or A&D or C&H but most people get bored with CTF and DM in hours so the boredom factor quickly reduces those who will admin CTF or DM.

With more and more Videos of Coop and PvP Coop as well as the mass of Addons attracting in new players most of them now skip CTF and DM and go straight to the private addon servers which are the vast majority of ArmA servers.

When you can get to play on a rock solid ArmA server with no lag and 50 people a side in a vast PvP coop; CTF and DM are nothing more than a once monthly MAD half hour before the start off. CTF and DM have become warm up sessions for the real event; people no longer even bother with how many points they score, there are far more new and exciting games to play.

ArmA can be modded to what you want, that is what ArmA is about. That is what makes ArmA so popular that is why so many people are playing PvP coop on the private locked servers that is why they are leaving CTF clans and joining mod teams and PvP coop clans. That is after all where the interest and fun is.  

As to the Arguments about anims they can and have been modded. Put them on you servers or do not that is your choice.

On a personal note

I for one would be very upset if BIS changed ArmA to make it more like COD 4 and the other; camera gun on a rail, laser shooter FPS games. I want bullets that come out of the gun and not from between my eyes. I want recoil, no cross hairs, firing from hip is waste of time. I want run and gun to be damn near impossible as it is here in reality. That is what ArmA as a game gives us. That is the way I like it.

Kind regards walker

[celery 8]

Walkker, you are the poster child of straw man arguments so please don't talk about others using them. Who is talking about CoD/CS/BF2 style movement and gameplay except for you? You are totally missing the point about what the competitive PvP scene wants and you even refuse to see it when they tell you. Instead, you make up your own slippery slopes and strawmen and put words in everybody's mouths and fight against windmills like a certain lunatic in historical fiction.

Just so you know, I'm not going to read your ridiculously long posts from start to finish when they could be compressed to a few sentences of false statements.

[JeRK 0]

Just so you know, I'm not going to read your ridiculously long posts from start to finish when they could be compressed to a few sentences of false statements.

Well that just explained your ignorance.

[celery 8]

Just so you know, I'm not going to read your ridiculously long posts from start to finish when they could be compressed to a few sentences of false statements.

Well that just explained your ignorance.

I have already read enough of his mass-generated text to know the information value in his posts.

Or do you really think that quantity automatically means quality?

[JeRK 0]

Just so you know, I'm not going to read your ridiculously long posts from start to finish when they could be compressed to a few sentences of false statements.

Well that just explained your ignorance.

I have already read enough of his mass-generated text to know the information value in his posts.

Or do you really think that quantity automatically means quality?

That post has quality, and you just flamed him without reading it.

[celery 8]

That post has quality, and you just flamed him without reading it.

I didn't flame anybody, I stated an argument against it (if you didn't notice the text above the part you are desperately clinging to). Regarding me not reading the post, you're wrong.

[JeRK 0]

That post has quality, and you just flamed him without reading it.

I didn't flame anybody, I stated an argument against it (if you didn't notice the text above the part you are desperately clinging to). Regarding me not reading the post, you're wrong.

Well your reply looked a whole lot like you didn't read a single word.

That aside, I'll never understand why people are still making CTF/DM maps for ArmA. It's just not the type of game for such gameplay, mainly you die way too fast.

(Did anyone read my map ideas above?)

[whisper 0]

Just so you know, I'm not going to read your ridiculously long posts from start to finish when they could be compressed to a few sentences of false statements.

Well that just explained your ignorance.

I have already read enough of his mass-generated text to know the information value in his posts.

Or do you really think that quantity automatically means quality?

That post has quality, and you just flamed him without reading it.

I don't call stating wrong things and completely off the point "quality", sorry.

It's not because Walker say "DM/CTF was nothing in OFP" that it is suddenly so. It just shows he wasn't aware at all of all what was happening in these parts of OFP community.

That A&D, C&H, miniBF, CTI and such also had great success in MP, sure. Doesn't invalidate the impact of CTF/DM at all.

His explanation about CTF disapearing from server list (player bored) is just.... completely missing the real reasons.

His expectations of new player getting into ArmA are... well, also off target when they come from the standard FPS scene. Sure, they seek something new, but guess what, most of them go away, for the very same reasons the CTF people have gone.

Those that stay (because yes, some are interested) wouldn't have been the one playing OFP CTF in the first hand.

People leaving CTF are NOT leaving it for PvP Coop, realism based ArmA game or what not, they are leaving the game, that is all.

For people that consider full-realism the only and sole way to go for playing ArmA, this is of course all good.

Now, considering Suma himself doesn't see realism as the core target of his game (or at least, not what he seeks himself), I find a bit strange that people look down on non-realism crowd trying to enforce their way of play when they say : "realism all the way, see, CTF players have disapeared to play realistically".

Once more, people have left CTF (and newcomers leave ArmA) mostly not because other game modes are better, but because the game has too many flaws they cannot cope with and they just leave it.

The solution is obviously to adapt the game to these players need, without interfering with current playerbase.

I think it's doable, but probably way too late.

On a sidenote, I've seen numerous Quake players playing OFP back in the days, for years. You read it, Quake players. And they enjoyed it immensely.

You can bet they don't play ArmA PvP Coop, CTI, Berzerk or Evo. They just don't play ArmA.

I've been in the realism OFP/ArmA scene for years, as long as I had enough time at hand. But I really don't think losing this part of the community is any good.

All this over glitches which could have been repaired without harming ArmA global community (99.99% of us wouldn't have said anything if anims had been OFP-like in the first hand, let's be honest, the pseudo-realism explanations about new ArmA anims were just poor justification attempts without real ground)

Now it's too late. I can only see a mod preparing ArmA2 shortcomings

[.kju 3244]

Good post looz whisper and I agree that walker's story is way off

from the reality.

Anyway most people miss the point here.

It is not about here and now. It is not about the past.

It is about the success of ArmA2.

Of course you can live in the past. ArmA competitive scene

is dead from the start and nearly not existent. This applies just

the same for CTI, AnD, CnH, CQB, CTF.

Do you know the reasons? Do you care? Did you talk to people

from those scenes?

It is no way about dumping down the game.

Is is about fixing the core gameplay issues for ArmA2.

It is about making the game enjoyable.

It is about enhancing the game in gameplay and tactical aspects

- that can very well include realism aspects.

Yet only going for hard core realism is just plain stupid.

Noone is asking for quake/cs.

OFP was a FAR better base and BI should improve from there on.

(Before you are saying again "ArmA is far better" - of course this

is only meant for the issues I am talking about. ArmA has good

gameplay additions as well of course that should stay in the

game)

Almost all non league guys here are guessing here all day.

Have you played these leagues for a long time in the past or now

in ArmA?

WGL

ESL

ECL

IXXL

BCL

IC ArmA

AToW

same goes for

TnT and all CTF leagues

and all CTI leagues

I mean you guys have no clue what you are talking about. And

still you write some crap here all day.

Do you know why the CTI scene is still playing CTI in OFP?

It is NOT about COOP vs CTF. This plain stupid to discuss.

OFP and ArmA could have all different gameplay styles.

Stop saying your stuff is the only one. How dump is that?

People should play what they enjoy.

@JeRK

Check the old maps and see what great things people have done.

If you only know hexe and think of CTF here, I am sorry for you.

@looz

I am only saying inf anim transitions are broken.

Fast run is no good idea either.

Air combat is just laughable in ArmA unfortunately.

Like I said AA hit 99% time, all ground units can easily shoot

down helos, helo vs helo combat is near to impossible. Even

only hitting ground units as helo is nearly impossible (of course

auto guided rockets don't count..).

Don't forget we talk about human vs human play.

The bugs that effect gameplay in ArmA are effectively dumping

down the game. As people cannot take advantage of vehicles

and make them part of tactics and enhance the gameplay way

more.

PS:

Sorry for my bad and emotional phrasing here.

It just too sad that BI unintentionally made all the great

other parts of their community move away from their product.

[Heatseeker 0]

I'd play anything in Arma over OPF any day.

Better netcode and performance.

JIP.

Smoother/better movement.

Better colision detection.

Better hit boxes (in OPF shooting at a weapon killed the player).

Just to name a few... you can tell me the game has "bugs" but so did OPF and the improvements in Arma are alot more significant than its "bugs".

Arma needed a large scale MP mission that captivates the mainstream players, like Evolution did, that would have boosted adversarial game modes.

[Kango 0]

The likes of ArmA / OFP are difficult to get into especially for casual gamers, most simply can't or don't want to spend the time learning the game, so you are always left with the hardcore fans spread over far too many servers.

Any time you look at the server list there are only a handful of servers with a decent amount of players and dozens of other servers with a handful of players on each , simply no use for PvP players.

For PvP fans there needs to be a decent amount of players on each side and all that seems to be available is Berzerk (great maps) and you are lucking if there is one server with a lot of players on it. (not to mention the hackers that love it too! )

There are plenty other PvP maps of all sorts but they are not played.When you fire up, take a look at the server list , you just want to jump into a game with say 20+ players, but alas not much there for PvP.

I'd bet any of the unplayed maps would probably get a following if anyone fire up ArmA and saw 20+ playing it, you'd join out of sheer curiosity.

[benreeper 0]

For those players on the "Game is Flawed camp" I have a question:

If Arma2 is just like Arma (pertaining to this argument) will you still buy it.?

I will because I LOVE these games and think there are plenty of us that will buy it also. I bought five copies of Arma already.

If the answer is no then will you remain in the community, complaining about the game's flaws or leave the community altogether? And if you leave the community will you then play one of the other cookie-cutter shooters or give up MP PVP?

I don't think there are any other choices. If there are the please enlighten me as to them.

--Ben

[.kju 3244]

Heatseeker for guys like you I added the text in the brackets.

You may want to read it again.

Heatseeker mate. No one is questioning all the other benefits and

improvements of ArmA. Ok? Got it?

We are only trying to tell you that certain gameplay bugs hurt

ArmA very badly in terms of PvP, gameplay and fun.

The type map you are talking about is berzerk.

There are every CTI missions in ArmA.

You you please spend one minute of your time to think about this:

Why is the pvp (league and public) nearly non existent in

ArmA from the start and even less now?

What do you say - why is that so? All playing CoD4 now?

Ben can you please do me personal favor?

Please read what people are actually writing here. Thanks mate!

Of course you can continue to call all PvP people idiots and send

them to hell..

Please do yourself a favor and check what excellent missions

and leagues PvP people made for OFP and ArmA. The tactical

and teamplay aspects are way beyond you can ever imagine.

Think of CoC CEX for PvP and you have a start.

BI and even you would suffer a lot if all the players and talent

would be no more in ArmA2. Ever thought of that?