TrackIR Pros & Cons???

[NaturalPoint_Vincent 0]

Pros overwhelmingly defeat the cons and the only con I know of that hasn't been mentioned is about the trackIR clip. the clip you can buy, while definitely worth it if you use headphones and/or dont like to wear hats, is fairly cheaply made (read cheap, breakable plastic) Mine broke within 2 weeks and i have to use tape to keep it in position. No effect on performance, just an eyesore, but annoying.

Other than that, the TrackIR becomes as indispensable to gaming (if you're a big flight guy, Arma, FSX, etc) as a joystick. I could get carried away and say it's almost as crucial as high speed but that may be a bit much....

Did you order from us?

Send your order info to me, and I will see about getting it replaced for you..........

support @ naturalpoint.com

Hey Vincent, I broke my track clip pro too.  I had my leg wrapped in a bunch of chords and my headphones hit the ground and the 3 peg end peice(with the lazers) broke.  It still works but the one of the pegs that help it in place snapped - so it just sort of hangs there.

So you can replace it?

Not sure I can do anything with this type of scenario, as it would be outside of what the warranty covered.......

[Rg 0]

I will run the idea of being able to pause individual axis within the TrackIR software, by the development team and see if we can get it added to a future version of the software.

You mentioned this feature being included in the next version. I have similar suggestion. Someone might have already asked this at some point, but...

Would it be possible to assign a hotkey to load a profile? While ingame, you can alt-tab and change the "Auto-load Profile" to whatever you want then go back ingame and have it work. So would it be possible to do a certain profile change by the ease of hitting a hot key?

I desire this because as infantry most people play with a deadzone. I didn't for a while, but for being able to see movement at long ranges, your screen needs to be still. When it comes to flying and driving, I like to have no deadzone. So, is this at all possible?

Thanks,

[kestrel7e7 0]

I'm the principal FreeTrack developer since version 1.1.

There has to be a voice of reason that cuts through the blatant misinformation and propaganda that is often spread by commercial monopolies and people with vested interests.

Quote[/b] ]Please tell me you weren't being serious when you posted this.  Each iteration of TIR used progressively better hardware, ALL of which were better suited to head tracking than ANY webcam/software hack available at the time - and likely since.

I’m aware of the hardware improvements and the associated commercial benefits.

Quote[/b] ]Basic tracking algorithms are hardly new, I never said they were, but things get a bit more complex when you have to deal with different size dots or dealing with motion and range when moving in 3D space.  Try to keep up here.

Alter’s super efficient 1992 algorithm, that can track 3 points in a video stream and create a 3d estimate,  is accurate enough for computer game head tracking and I see no need to change it. I researched many algorithms from the 1980s to the present day and that was the best one. I could change it if I wanted to, it’s just software and open source too, anyone could apply a better algorithm if they feel it necessary.

Quote[/b] ]Actually I'm not mistaken at all, just your ability to read what I wrote or understand what you just said about interpolation.  I'll try to make it simple for you.  Input frame rate, or polling of an input device, most definitely has an effect on the perceived framerate of a game.  Try running a mouse at 40hz on your favourite game and then go back to your new one and let me know how it felt.

Quote[/b] ] Some people are happy with 30fps and others prefer 60fps - and more especially in first person shooters.  I'd also mention that when your video framerate is limited, having lower frames on your input device makes it worse.

I wrote the interpolation code for FreeTrack. You don’t seem to know what it means, in your own words ‘I’ll make it simple for you’ : mouse smoothing.

Quote[/b] ]Interpolation (or smoothing) doesn't magically give you better precision as there is a cost.  It will give you better resolution but less accuracy and the end effect with lots of interpolation is similar to mouse lag.  Even with TIR you would want to find a good balance for smoothing, especially if the game involves lots of fast input movements.

Interpolation, precision, smoothing, resolution, accuracy, lag; you’re completely mixing up your terms.

Quote[/b] ]An oversimplification, as you are not taking into account the software overhead which is more prevelant on a webcam solution.

The time delay between webcam and tracking software certainly does exist, but is so tiny compared with the frame rate, that it can safely be ignored. From the perspective of modern computers, 1ms is a very long time.

Quote[/b] ]In the case of ArmA which does not utilize dual-core processing you will indeed get a benefit in regard to cpu utilization (I'd imagine if you set the affinity to use the other core) but what about newer games that are much more efficient using multi-cores for video and audio processing?  Bottom line is it's better to have dedicated hardware do the work rather than competing with the cpu(s).  Whether the end experience is worth the difference is semantics and better argued with direct side-by-side comparison not speculation.

Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, there currently aren’t any head tracking enabled games that fully support multi-threading.  Multi-threading is also very hard to implement well in games and doesn’t automatically mean all cores available are pushed to 100%. Cpu capabilities will only continue to get better such that head tracking cpu usage will only continue to drop.  1-3% today, 0.5-1.5% tomorrow. And that’s not taking into account the growing use of PPUs, physics typically being the most demanding part of a game on cpu resources.

Quote[/b] ]Also, from responses I've seen, 1%-3% cpu is a bit optimistic and I've seen up to 30% or more.

For a single core computer with an inefficient webcam perhaps, which is why a Labtec webcam is a single-core computer’s best friend.  If this is a problem, a single-core user would be better off saving up for a better cpu than buying expensive dedicated tracking hardware.

[kegetys 2]

I will run the idea of being able to pause individual axis within the TrackIR software, by the development team and see if we can get it added to a future version of the software.

You mentioned this feature being included in the next version. I have similar suggestion. Someone might have already asked this at some point, but...

On the topic of suggestions, would it also be possible to have shortcuts to adjust the center point manually? Often I'd want the view to be tilted a little bit downwards, or be just a bit higher or further back than where the game sets the center point to be. I can do this now by doing the exact opposite of what I'd want and then press the center key, but this makes the centering procedure a bit too complicated... Maybe there could be a "center here" button, so I could move my head where I'd want the default view to be, press that key, and that position would become the new center position?

Also, I'd like an option to have the LEDs (or the whole device?) to automatically turn off when there are no active applications using it. Currently I have to manually start the TrackIR software every time I want to play a TIR game (and sometimes I forget to do it, and I have to restart the game), simply because if the device is on all the time it gets really, really hot when sitting on top of my 22" CRT screen that puts out around 130W of additional heat onto it. Maybe it isn't a problem, but I'd rather not risk it getting broken even if it would be replaced by warranty.

[AsRock+SD 0]

I will run the idea of being able to pause individual axis within the TrackIR software, by the development team and see if we can get it added to a future version of the software.

You mentioned this feature being included in the next version. I have similar suggestion. Someone might have already asked this at some point, but...

On the topic of suggestions, would it also be possible to have shortcuts to adjust the center point manually? Often I'd want the view to be tilted a little bit downwards, or be just a bit higher or further back than where the game sets the center point to be. I can do this now by doing the exact opposite of what I'd want and then press the center key, but this makes the centering procedure a bit too complicated... Maybe there could be a "center here" button, so I could move my head where I'd want the default view to be, press that key, and that position would become the new center position?

Also, I'd like an option to have the LEDs (or the whole device?) to automatically turn off when there are no active applications using it. Currently I have to manually start the TrackIR software every time I want to play a TIR game (and sometimes I forget to do it, and I have to restart the game), simply because if the device is on all the time it gets really, really hot when sitting on top of my 22" CRT screen that puts out around 130W of additional heat onto it. Maybe it isn't a problem, but I'd rather not risk it getting broken even if it would be replaced by warranty.

How about this Kegetys. not tested it but hopfully works for you or give you some idea.

start "first.exe"

second.exe

taskkill /F /IM "first.exe"

EDIT: BTW TIR support is the best you will ever find. Yes there exspenive and only issue i have is the warenty is only 1 year and think it should be more like 3 years.

[CharveL 0]

Kestrel it has never been my intention to put you down or your fine work that you have obviously made available for no cost to everybody who wants to use headtracking. I think it's a very commendable thing and I applaud anyone who puts that much effort into a freeware program and then continues to improve it simply for the challenge and satisfaction.

There is no need to get your back up over this!

My concern is that you are misrepresenting your product unnecessarily by putting down the TrackIR without having any idea what you are comparing against except in the most basic terms. This isn't about basic tracking algorithms so much as the refinements put into them as well as the feature set available in the software which goes beyond the admittedly better hardware which you keep trying to downplay as irrelevant.

Would it not make sense for you to educate yourself about the TIR and it's software before making blanket statements about how much better yours is? You've even gone so far as to call it a "hack" (on other forum posts) which isn't exactly objective or fair is it?

Your work should be able to stand on it's own merits and indeed it fills a niche for those not inclined to spend the money on a, shall we for argument's sake a more complete package. I think that is more than enough to interest people without any need to misrepresent a product you admittedly have no knowledge of beyond wikipedia. Your product is free and has it's own dedicated following and likely attracting more every day isn't that enough?

Quote[/b] ]I wrote the interpolation code for FreeTrack. You don’t seem to know what it means,in your own words ‘I’ll make it simple for you’ : mouse smoothing.

Um...you missed this part:

Quote[/b] ]Interpolation (or smoothing)...

Quote[/b] ]Alter’s super efficient 1992 algorithm, that can track 3 points in a video stream and create a 3d estimate, is accurate enough for computer game head tracking and I see no need to change it. I researched many algorithms from the 1980s to the present day and that was the best one. I could change it if I wanted to, it’s just software and open source too, anyone could apply a better algorithm if they feel it necessary.

That's nice but wasn't exactly the point. It's the optimizations and enhancements to the code for applying it to gaming specific tasks I refer to. Also things like the fidelity of controls, GUI, and countless other features that make things simpler and more intuitive for the user that come into play. Again, basic tracking is no big deal - much of the reason why you can come up with a program on your own implementing an algorithm from the 80's - but being a commercially marketed solution you can expect a great deal more polish and better feature set. Whether it's more than a hobbyist needs or wishes to pay for is up to the end user isn't it?

Quote[/b] ]There has to be a voice of reason that cuts through the blatant misinformation and propaganda that is often spread by commercial monopolies and people with vested interests.

And you are that voice of reason? This isn't a political agenda we're talking about and I don't see NP_Vincent or anyone putting down your software anywhere do you? That seems to be a one-way street in this thread.

I'm a beta tester for NP and I volunteer my services for free because I use and like the hardware. I also have some insight into how they run their business and see the developers answer customers questions and concerns directly, take their suggestions for improvement, and spend a great deal of their free time helping people. No one is forcing you to buy their product and those that do are overwhelmingly satisfied they have done so but YMMV.

I don't think you have any need to be paranoid about them and they certainly aren't some commercial monopoly. Feel free to g00gle up other head tracking solutions available.

Quote[/b] ]Interpolation, precision, smoothing, resolution, accuracy, lag; you’re completely mixing up your terms.

Where exactly? Please point out where I've misused these terms in context to what I was writing. It sounds like you are being unnecessarily defensive for no reason. These terms are really fairly simple concepts but if you can't understand my meaning just let me know which sentence you don't get and I'll try to reword it for clarity's sake. I've looked back over everything and I don't think I've misused any terms but this is a forum post not a technical document so just ask and I'll be happy to explain in more detail.

Quote[/b] ]The time delay between webcam and tracking software certainly does exist, but is so tiny compared with the frame rate, that it can safely be ignored. From the perspective of modern computers, 1ms is a very long time.

I agree. But again you are addressing the wrong point. The delay I'm referring to is from the interpolation (smoothing ). Feel free to test the in-game results from no smoothing to maximum smoothing and see if you can tell a difference. It will be more noticeable using a webcam with a lower framerate of course than a 60fps webcam or a 120fps TIR. Again how noticeable is subjective. I noticed the difference between a TIR2 and a TIR3 but I've been gamin for quite a while and might be a little more attuned to it. Again YMMV.

Quote[/b] ]Let’s not get ahead of ourselves, there currently aren’t any head tracking enabled games that fully support multi-threading. Multi-threading is also very hard to implement well in games and doesn’t automatically mean all cores available are pushed to 100%.

Yes, which is why I mentioned games in the future. Currently from what I understand Crysis offloads audio processing to other cores but I agree that currently no games using head tracking make full use of all cores. That might change in future games, we'll see. Of course with much of the processing done in hardware it's just that much better but with cpu's as they are now it certainly benefits to have cycles available to do the work in software for your FreeTrack.

Quote[/b] ]Cpu capabilities will only continue to get better such that head tracking cpu usage will only continue to drop. 1-3% today, 0.5-1.5% tomorrow. And that’s not taking into account the growing use of PPUs, physics typically being the most demanding part of a game on cpu resources.

Yep. The only thing I would add is that the constant graphic improvement in games and pressure on developers to add more and more has a tendency to use up whatever resources are available. Dedicated hardware is always the better way to go when applications are fighting for resources but who knows it may be negligible as you say.

Anyway, best of luck with your software I'm sure it will do well on it's own merits.

[AsRock+SD 0]

CharveL why bother lol.

Well i noticed a difference from TIR3 V too TIR4 as the tracking is much better more forgivable than TIR3 was. This was due to the extra viewing angle.

And when you loose tracking is due to being to close to the unit.which i have found away around by not having the TIR4 on the monitor. All though bigger monitor less this becomes a issue as you don't need to look closer to things that are displayed on your Monitor..

[CharveL 0]

CharveL why bother lol.

Well i noticed a difference from TIR3 V too TIR4 as the tracking is much better more forgivable than TIR3 was. This was due to the extra viewing angle.

And when you loose tracking is due to being to close to the unit.which i have found away around by not having the TIR4 on the monitor. All though bigger monitor less this becomes a issue as you don't need to look closer to things that are displayed on your Monitor..

Good point I forgot to mention the extended viewing area on the newer units (psst...FOV). Something I don't think you get on a webcam but undoubtedly another feature Kestrel will downplay as insignificant and unnecessary.

[Jarvis 0]

Well wait a minute, how come you're going to replace his and not mine?  You don't even know how his broke... Anyways it hit soft carped from a 2ft fall...yes very weak plastic indeed.

[kestrel7e7 0]

All models before TIR4 had less fov than a average webcam (33 degrees). TIR4 fov (46 degrees) is available in some webcams (some can go to 70 degrees).

Quote[/b] ].yes very weak plastic indeed.

Brittle plastic? A bit disappointing considering the price for what is effectively 3 IR leds, a sunglass visor clip and a USB connector. http://geocities.com/falstar2012/

[SWAT_BigBear 0]

I disagree concerning "cheap plastic"!

Mine has slipped or been pulled off the desk many times and hits a carpet mate (hard plastic), without breaking.

To break it, would take FORCE, not gravity.

[Dallas 9]

I disagree concerning "cheap plastic"!

Mine has slipped or been pulled off the desk many times and hits a carpet mate (hard plastic), without breaking.

To break it, would take FORCE, not gravity.

I have to say this fragile little hat clip of mine, has survived more abuse than I magined it could stand.

[Jarvis 0]

Well I'm sitting here with a track clip pro with one of the pegs broken off(2 keeping the IRs inplace). Don't know or care bout you people and your stories, but my evidence speaks for itself. Soft carpet 2ft fall. Or should I say factory defect?

[dslyecxi 23]

Well I'm sitting here with a track clip pro with one of the pegs broken off(2 keeping the IRs inplace). Don't know or care bout you people and your stories, but my evidence speaks for itself. Soft carpet 2ft fall. Or should I say factory defect?

I have had a TrackClipPro since they were released. It sits on my headphones, which rest on a headphone rest that is attached to the side of my desk. The TrackClip is about 2-2.5 feet off of the ground because of this, with carpet underneath.

I have had my headphones fall off of this rest for various reasons (cats hitting the cords, for one) probably 30-40 times, no exaggeration. The only thing that has ever happened to the TrackClip is that the three-LED prong has disconnected, or the arm has disconnected from the headphone clip. And by "disconnected" I mean that it has yielded without damaging the device. The TrackClipPro appears to be designed to yield before breaking, and putting it back together is as simple as snapping the piece back into place. Bear in mind that this is also sometimes with the full weight of Sennheiser HD-595s landing on top of the TrackClipPro after the fall.

As said, this has happened at least 30-40 times, over the course of a year or more, in conditions similar to what you are saying. I find it hard to believe that I have never had a problem from this, yet you say that after a single time that it broke completely.

[The Susser 0]

drop the price of Track IR to 50 Euros and i'll buy it. The current price is way way too steep for another game controller. I know they are milking the market as they have no competitors but really, that price, get out of here.

[twisted 128]

brilliant product and great support. get it if you can.

[GAU-8 0]

you have to understand that TRACK-IR is not just about a few of us gamers. they ORIGINALLY started by offering products for people who could not normally operate a PC with hands (para, and quadrapalegics). we are but a small (allthough growing) piece of their industry. price helps new tooling, refinements, and deveolpement. besides, i dont know ANYBODY that has a business to not make money. people expect raises, there are regular price increases for the raw materials to build the product, electricity, heating/cooling bills, maintainance work, etc etc....

its not NP problem that one cant find the means to purchase what a company offers. that is a savings issue on the consumer. i dont see people ranting to lamborghini, or dodge for the exotic car prices. put change in a jar every day. work some overtime. sell some items you dont use. dont eat out as often. penny pinch on shopping with like items. whatever.

i had a coworker who lived paycheck to paycheck, because of bad spending habits. he then was promoted to a salary position. got paid once a month. he said he couldnt survive for a month with no pay until the first check came in. the company said. thats not our fault what you do with the money once it changes hands. if its too expensive. you have to manage better.

[The Susser 0]

I'm sure its a brilliant product. I hope you don't charge disabled people those prices. I want it myself but until the price lowers, forget it.

[kestrel7e7 0]

Quote[/b] ]you have to understand that TRACK-IR is not just about a few of us gamers. they ORIGINALLY started by offering products for people who could not normally operate a PC with hands (para, and quadrapalegics). we are but a small (allthough growing) piece of their industry.

FreeTrack is a TrackIR and SmartNav for free, giving improved computer accessibility for people with disabilities without charging them for the privilege. I'm thinking of adding dwell click functionality as well to further improve accessibility.

Quote[/b] ] I hope you don't charge disabled people those prices.

SmartNav EG & AT cost more than TrackIR even though the hardware and software is basically the same.

[CharveL 0]

I'm sure its a brilliant product. I hope you don't charge disabled people those prices. I want it myself but until the price lowers, forget it.

There's nothing wrong with refusing a product because it doesn't meet your needs at the price you wish to spend.

But who are you to tell a company what they should charge for their product? Do YOU have to do the R&D necessary to make it? Do YOU have to pay manufacturing for a prototype and staff to redesign and improve it for easier access, then produce relatively limited quantities (we're not talking about market saturated webcams here) of them?

It's much more satisfying I expect to believe that the device is priced to rip poor disabled people off when they should be giving them away at cost.

I sure hope you take at least half your paycheck (or allowance) every week and give it to charity. I mean, I think you would be totally selfish if you gave any less than that.

Point is that this isn't Logitech we're talking about selling hundreds of thousands of these a year but a small company with a good idea doing their best to make a living providing something to people who otherwise have very little options. FreeTrack is hardly one of them for most disabled people as TIR is quite a bit further than dwell-click functionality, I dare say.

Maybe FreeTrack software will catch up in a couple years and he'll start making homemade IR trackers to give out on his website without "charging for the privilege". I will personally applaud kestrel7e7 (even more so then I already do) when he does!

Until then I'm afraid people like GAU-8 would prefer something that works well out of the box and offers many more specific features for ease of use.

The simple fact is that until a company like NP has enough demand to produce larger quantities - especially by penetrating the FPS market - the prices are what they have to be and the beauty of a free market system allows YOU to choose whether YOU think it's worth the money. If it's not then it's great to know you can get at least the basic functionality for almost free with kestrel's solution.

[4 IN 1 0]

brought it and love it, used it on every game that it supports and the only cons together with ARMA is that you will get fairly sick if you use it for a long time and some of your setting might be wrong, other then that, i am all cool with it

free track is good if you dont have the money, but after trying it i still go to brought the track IR, call me lazy if you like

[kestrel7e7 0]

Quote[/b] ]But who are you to tell a company what they should charge for their product?  Do YOU have to do the R&D necessary to make it?  Do YOU have to pay manufacturing for a prototype and staff to redesign and improve it for easier access, then produce relatively limited quantities (we're not talking about market saturated webcams here)

Who am I? I thought you would have known by now. I'm a software developer that has proved that expensive dedicated hardware is no longer required for headtracking using current webcam and cpu technology. That, in itself, is enough to question the TIR business model.

Some people may not mind buying a cheap 2dof version of TIR because yaw and pitch are the most useful degrees of freedom (many FreeTrack users are satsified with 2dof). NP have no interest in offering more affordable alternatives and even their older models are removed from the market before their price can drop.

Theirs is a business model based on limited supply of a 'premium' product at a higher price which does little for improving the market penetration of head tracking in mainstream games. The only way to bring head tracking to the masses, enough so that the FPS genre can be cracked, is to be serious about a high supply low price business model.

Quote[/b] ]FreeTrack is hardly one of them for most disabled people as TIR is quite a bit further than dwell-click functionality, I dare say.

The GUI says otherwise. The dwell click software is a separate executable and can be used with FreeTrack. SmartNav also doesn't make use of 6dof tracking which would allow head rotation to be separated from translation.

Quote[/b] ]the beauty of a free market system allows YOU to choose whether YOU think it's worth the money. If it's not then it's great to know you can get at least the basic functionality for almost free with kestrel's solution.

No thanks to NP's attempt to monopolise the gaming sector with their own secret interface protected by NDA. Thank god for the DMCA.

FreeTrack currently offers more functionality than TrackIR with direct mouse, keyboard and joystick control, detailed 3d preview and zoom relative smoothing amongst others. A custom center will be in the next version, something TIR users have been asking NP to implement for a long time but to no avail, despite its simplicity.

[Dallas 9]

How about a 2nd thread dedicated to FreeTrack, I promise to bookmark it.

[GAU-8 0]

(this is not out directly at anyone, just an observation, an open opinion)

i just want to add that i am NOT against kestrel7e7, for his version of head tracking.

i applaud both sides going different paths to achieve the same idea. and both work.

both have their pro's and con's.

i wont tell anyone which to to chose, that is up to you. honestly i am happy with either one (all though it has been quite some time since i did the freeware version). i just dont understand why people are bantering about the pricing of one side. honestly no on is FORCING headtracking down your thoats and saying "cough up the cash " with a gun to your head. for fucks sake get the damned free version . its free. why bitch here about natural point on pricing?

want to go the free route?- then do so. (FREETRACK) its perfectly viable as long as you have s little bit of time, and a web cam. or you will have to go out and get a webcam. of course you have to decide, which webcam is best for your cash. so in the end, you will still ahve to shell out some money anyways.

want to go the "pay for complete stand alone unit"? you can do that too! (TRACK-IR) complete software, and hardware "married" into one package. no need to say to yourself "do i get this web cam, or that one?..one is better, but im not sure if i should spend THAT much money, but a cheap one might not work as well." NP takes the simple guesswork some of us go thru out of the picture. its all inclusive. for a price.

its not like this is a "unification online mod" that all players must have one OR the other to play with same group of people.

i will bring it up a third time though. for those that complain about prices, how come you dont bring up so much attention to hardware makers for computer games? GRAPHIC CARDS, SOUND CARDS, RAM..etc etc. you game freaks upgrade all the freaking time because you have to stay up to date to play a current game....yet complain about a product that does NOT need to be upgraded once a year, or newest DX version, just to play a game.

hmm. 300 bones for headtracking that i have had for 3 years... or 600 bones for the graphic card, for me to play at "almost everything on low settings for me to JUST play the game on low settings". i dont hear people bitch about that. oh yeah i also have to get a mobo, because AGP is no longer supported. oh wait, now i have to get a new CPU as well, because the mobo doesnt take that old socket. well damn. i have to upgrade my ram as well....(not that this is my predicament...just an example.) video cards are sold MUCH more in numbers than a track IR....but nobody complains. same with CPU, etc etc as listed before.

just pick a damn headtracking unit, you will like either one.

[GAU-8 0]

I hope you don't charge disabled people those prices.

has anybody taken a look at the cars that park in a disabled parking lately...? it aint the usually clunker, or grannymobile. seriously take a look. they got money just like we do. if not even more.

are you assuming handicapped people are POOR, and cannot do the same things we can!? what a STEREOTYPE. by all means. i know 2 guys who both happen to have one arm, BOTH drive a motorcycle DAILY, both are successful . one does flight simming/arma daily.

thats biased/insulting.