KnowsAbout bug or feature?

[snkman 351]

Hey guy's,

after some millions of tests i finally could find out, what's wrong...

It's not my script it's just ArmA.

If you use the knowsAbout command to check, how much an enemy knows about you you can get into big trouble.

I have a script, which checks how much an enemy knows about me, and if he knows much enough he will call for reinforcement and start advancing to my position.

Now after several tests, i found out, that after some time all enemys, even if they are more then 1000 meters away from me starts advancing to my position.

I could never understand it, till i made a little test mission which showed me exactly, what's going on there.

So now if you have for example:

3 groups placed on Rahmadi one in the north, one in the south and another in the west and if you destroy a Truck or a not amoured vehicle, the knowsAbout factor will not be shared with the other groups, only the nearest group may gets an knowsAbout factor of 0.08543 or 0.09432.

But now if you replace the Truck with an for example Shilka or another Armoured vehicle and after you destroyed it the nearest group will get an knowsAbout factor of 1.5 ant then after a few secounds, the other 2 groups, even if they are thousends of meters away also gets an knowsAbout factor of 1.5!

Thats absolutly stupid!!!!

Many of my script wouldn't work just becouse of this and why does ArmA do this?

Is it a feature? If yes then it's just one more ArmA feature no one need's.

What should the knowsAbout command be used for, if all enemys automatically knows the same like the nearest group, after you destroyed a Tank or a Chopper?

It's just senseless to use the ArmA knowsAbout command...

PLZ BIS give us back the knowsAbout command like it was in OFP!

For all which like to check it out, here's the Test mission i made to test the knowsAbout factor of the groups:

KnowsAbout Test Mission

[.kju 3244]

can you please file a bug report over at the CBTS - thank you!

[snkman 351]

I can't becouse i don't have an account.

I already tryed to register but then it say i have to send a PM to: boecko and he will create an account for me.

ArmA Bug Tracker Register

Well i never reached an E-Mail from him...

May can you add it to the bug Tracker?

[max power 21]

Yeah, several people I know also didn't get any emails back from boeko as well. Using Boeko as a filter seems to be a pretty flawed reg scheme.

[.kju 3244]

hm i see..

boecko isn't available so much these days.

we will change the sign up process. i'll keep you updated!

sorry for the inconvenience!

[MehMan 0]

Well I can report the bug for you, I'd be very glad.

[robert(uk) 0]

Hehe this shows how cool and dedicated our community here is. They find a really, really obscure bug, and then create a mission to test it! How many other games could you do that in?

[suma 8]

I wanted to test the repro mission, however it seems to require some addons I do not have installed, namely arma_gl2plus and rhs_weap. Once you create a repro with no addons, feel free to drop me a PM and I will check it again.

[froggyluv 2135]

Isn't that the nature of Grouplink? For all groups to share information on an enemy's whereabouts?

In all actuality that is more realistic. Imagine if enemy troops were spotted in New York City, every military unit in the country would know in a matter of minutes. Now this would alter the way missions would have to built of course-ideally, that enemy units would be alerted to your presence but not necessarily rush your area and could lose your exact position.

[Jack-UK 0]

Yes i think thats correct to a certain degree Froggyluv, however i believe that the 'knowsabout' factor gives pinpoint information (or at least that is what it sounds like) and the effects are much exaggerated.

[Shadow NX 1]

I wanted to test the repro mission, however it seems to require some addons I do not have installed, namely arma_gl2plus and rhs_weap. Once you create a repro with no addons, feel free to drop me a PM and I will check it again.

Give the rhs weaps a try they arent that bad

Sorry couldnt resist... to add something usefull:

i think i had the same prob before in the editor.

[snkman 351]

Sorry i just had forgotton to check the mission.sqm.

Okay here's a new version without custome AddOns.

KnowsAbout Test Mission

@froggyluv

This has nothing to do with Group Link.

It happends in default ArmA without any mods or scripts and why do everybody in ArmA knows something about me, after destroying a Tank or a Chopper, and after you killed some squads or destroyed a Truck no one know's something about you besides the enemys in your closest near?

Well thats defenetly a Bug if not then its unlogical.

[suma 8]

I checked the mission and the findings are:

If you fire at ZSU you get a different result than firing at the truck, because:

* the ZSU is located in such a way that Group 3 has a direct visibility to it

* the ZSU makes quite strong explosion when destroyed

Therefore, what happens is:

* The Group 3 sees a friendly vehicle was destroyed, and comes to a conclusion there is some enemy somewhere (this raises the knowsAbout to 1.5 for them)

* The said group reports its findings to a commanding center

* Groups 1 and 2 hear the loud explosion, and come to a conclusion there is some unknown combatant in the area

* They are communicating the commanding center to check if they have any information about a military presence around that explosion

* The center confirms there has been an enemy activity detected there, as a result, Groups 1 and 2 raise their knowsAbout to 1.5

I think part of the problem is knowsAbout reflects quite poorly

what the AI knows about given target. Currently it mirrors the precision with which the side of the target is known. There is no way to check from the script how precise is the AI positional information about the target, or to check similar properties of it.

[suma 8]

I have a script, which checks how much an enemy knows about me, and if he knows much enough he will call for reinforcement and start advancing to my position.

I guess you are sending the reinforcements into the real position of the player, as given by something like position player? That is definitely a problem - the AI is cheating then. I think you should perhaps check Guard waypoint functionality instead - if you will implement your reinforcements using guard, they will not go into the real location where player is hiding, but into a location where AI is assuming some enemy is, which in this mission will be very inaccurate.

[froggyluv 2135]

Ok i blew up the Shilka then ran to a bush. Group 3 went to 1.5 pretty quick the others soon followed. I peeked out and saw group 3 but they just stood on the hill watching the flames never engaging me. Groups 1+2 went back down to 0 with 3 following. I shuffled a little in the bush, and Group 3 went back to 1.5, still not engaging me.

Seems pretty real to me. I've done alot of this kind of testing using Troopmon, which you can 'look' from the perspective of your enemy, and whether he has a general idea of you area-Yellow, or a lock on your area -Red.

[Spinor 0]

How about using the new command nearTargets ...it seems to provide a lot of useful information, namely the perceived position, type and side of known targets.

They are communicating the commanding center to check if they have any information about a military presence around that explosion

Does nearTarget also use information acquired by contacting the center?

For advanced applications it would be useful to prevent groups from getting external intel. Imagine simulating a group without radio connection, or in case somebody wants to model his own communication network, such as in Grouplink (I would imagine) or CEX.

[snkman 351]

Thank's for the answere Suma and yes sounds logical what you say.

Well i was just comparing the script with OFP and ArmA and in OFP the knowsAbout command had a totally different factor like in ArmA so i thought it's an bug.

No i do not send the groups to "position player" it's a heliHEmpty which is randomly rotating around the players in a specific range and there the enemys will be send to.

Okay so now the magic knowsAbout number is 1.5

I changed this in my script and now it look's like everything works just perfect.

So now reinforcements are only called, after they know more then 1.5 about me.

@Spinor

Well this is the first time i hear about this command.

But good to know i will make some tests with it too.

Thanks for the hint.

[suma 8]

They are communicating the commanding center to check if they have any information about a military presence around that explosion

Does nearTarget also use information acquired by contacting the center?

Yes, it does. The group leader updates the target list based on the center response, and this target list is then accessed by the nearTargets function.

[sickboy 13]

I finally started to work on my own AI-Enhancement ala grouplink/dac etc. etc. and am using the nearTargets as a base.

It's already starting to look promising and hoping to showcase a beta soon, as script in missions or as plugin into the AI-Manager.

nearTargets is a very interesting feature, especially the perceived positions etc, which make it a lot more realiable than knowsAbout, looking up position of the player group units, or randomly picking locations surrounding that group or individuals of that group.

Only thing im missing from the array is the distance to the targets, but it's easily calculated of course.

[snkman 351]

Well after some more testing i think this is a bug...

After destroying a MI-17 with crew inside i randomly get a knowsAbout factor of all groups on the map up to 4.0 ( Highest knowsAbout level )

I also found a bug reportet on th Bug Tracker, where people had the same problems like me: knowsAbout

Like Bobor SK sad at the Bug Tracker:

Quote[/b] ]

Maybe bug of AI or maybe a missing command for turning this communication feature off.

Such a option would help a lot if you could choose if they should share infos around the whole map or not.

[wiper 0]

I'm using <knowsabout> extremly intense and it works pretty great for me like it did in OFP.

One thing though that is definately different to OFP:

In Arma the knowsabout value is NOT automatically reset to 0 (zero) for dead targets !!

While this can be seen as a great new feature, for lets say "knowing" corpses f.e., its now often needed to check the alive status of the known unit.

maybe this is what you encounter ...?

[sickboy 13]

@SNKMan, I think Suma tried to explain that the fact that the KnowsAbout value is high, doesn't mean the AI knows your position, or is going to engage you. They simply "know about you" because they are being attacked, lost radio contact with one of their armors etc. etc.

Stop using knowsAbout and start using nearTargets would be my recommendation.

[snkman 351]

Well okay but what exactly is "nearTargets" doing?

If a enemy is in the given range he will advance to your position right?

So you could forget all the rating stuff and the things would be brainless...

I don't like to have a script which gives me 60 enemys on my tail after playing 30 min.

nearTargets is only checking the range and if the enemy is in the given range he will advance toward to the position or did i get the command wrong?

[sickboy 13]

When you combine the nearTargets that your AI's have (which you can actually process per-group, as the whole group communicaties their targets with eachother), and create a unique list with most recent information, you can use that list again to induce ratings.

Im very close to releasing a beta of my NAI-project, check for info here:

http://www.flashpoint1985.com/cgi-bin....1158400

It will also give an idea of what im talking about on how the nearTarget function can be used.