COD like combat in Arma 2

[matt714 2]

Quote[/b] ]Call Of Duty isn't a combat simulator?

Nor is Armed Assault. The latter is highly more realistic though.

I'm assuming that new players can't get used to having to run for a few minutes before having to shoot anything because they come from games similar to Battlefield 2.

[Beagle 684]

I'm assuming that new players can't get used to having to run for a few minutes before having to shoot anything because they come from games à la Battlefield 2.

Running is bad for your stamina...you won't hit anything if you arrive completely exhausted in the battle zone...so better drive there! Running is always a bad idea...your perception will be degraded while running, and you will be detected earlier.

[liljb15 0]

Quote[/b] ]Call Of Duty isn't a combat simulator?

Nor is Armed Assault. The latter is highly more realistic though.

I'm assuming that new players can't get used to having to run for a few minutes before having to shoot anything because they come from games similar to Battlefield 2.

We've already established the fact that none of us here are new players.

[Commander-598 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please point to a solider that cant run and reload.

*Points to Every Soldier in the World*

You probably could but I'd put good odds on a soldier dropping the new mag or tripping over something and face planting.

Quote[/b] ]Please point to a solider that moves slow as f@%

*Points to US Marine with 80lbs of body armor, ammunition, and his weapon*

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that cant jog/run with his weapon and still be reasonably accurite at ranges between 80m-10m.

(Did you mean 100m?)

*Points to every soldier in the world*

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that cantt o adjust his sights on his weapon.

Show me a game where that's actually a feature.

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that can carry a M24 sniper rifle and a AT-4, but cant carry an M4A1 and an MP5.

Show me a soldier with four arms that isn't already overburdened by his body armor, ammunition, and current weapons.

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that takes 4 seconds to throw a freaking grenade.

*Points to every soldier in the world*

Seriously. You try pulling it out of whatever pocket it's in, pulling it's pin, throwing your arm all the way back and hurling it across a field in under four seconds.

[Beagle 684]

I once had to carry three G3s, because of one man beeing injured and we were deep in the woods so two others had to help him...that was no fun. I was practically disabled to do anthing else.

[NoRailgunner 0]

Would be better to have an extra-thread like:

"Wish ArmA could have... " or "ArmA request thread"

[BraTTy 0]

Another thing not to forget....

In BIS games the AI can walk fly or drive

[Beagle 684]

Another thing not to forget....

In BIS games the AI can walk fly or drive

And swim!

[Hitman 10]

Woah woah woah... I thought I wouldn't post on this topic but woah... You ever been in the military there Commander-598? I'm a ex-military person and I can surely disagree with some points you've maken. I was in the Finnish Ranger Forces for over 2 years including as a staff member and I disagree with some of the points you've made.

Quote[/b] ]Please point to a solider that cant run and reload.

*Points to Every Soldier in the World*

You probably could but I'd put good odds on a soldier dropping the new mag or tripping over something and face planting.

I can. I was TRAINED to do it and I was TRAINING people to run and reload. Of course it's not not recommended to run and reload while in a hostile ground or in a firefight but yeah, I've done it, I was trained to.

Quote[/b] ]Please point to a solider that moves slow as f@%

Quote[/b] ]

*Points to US Marine with 80lbs of body armor, ammunition, and his weapon*

That I cannot comment since we only carried the must's in a firefight situation, being behind the lines and all that. Surely they will move alot slower than we did, with all that weight on.

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that cant jog/run with his weapon and still be reasonably accurite at ranges between 80m-10m.

Quote[/b] ](Did you mean 100m?)

*Points to every soldier in the world*

I don't know much about other militaries but when we were trained, the top skill was stamina. And we were doing this. Hell, they even had competitions for us to ski/run/swim for distances and then fire accurate shots to 150meters. And we all done it, perfectly well.

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that cantt o adjust his sights on his weapon.

Quote[/b] ]Show me a game where that's actually a feature.

Now that'd be an excellent feature right there!

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that can carry a M24 sniper rifle and a AT-4, but cant carry an M4A1 and an MP5.

Quote[/b] ]Show me a soldier with four arms that isn't already overburdened by his body armor, ammunition, and current weapons.

I was carrying a TRG-42 (or in finnish military the Tarkkuuskivääri 2000) and a APILAS AT. I operated them both and it's procedure in the finnish military to carry the shrapnel vest, the ammunition for the both of the weapons AND a radio system sometimes. And I'm not talking about the small radios the US army uses but I'm talking about LV221's which in the US was used by the time the 2nd Rambo movie came out.

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that takes 4 seconds to throw a freaking grenade.

Quote[/b] ]*Points to every soldier in the world*

Seriously. You try pulling it out of whatever pocket it's in, pulling it's pin, throwing your arm all the way back and hurling it across a field in under four seconds.

I kinda agree and disagree with you on this one. A real trainer soldier would prepare his grenades when going into battle and he would take less than 4 seconds to get it out, pull the pin and throw it. It took me less than 4 seconds to disemble my rifle when I was prepared to do it. But then again, it might come as a surprise and you would have to search for the grenade and so on. But taken the circumstances, you are in a combat zone in ArmA and you SHOULD be prepared. So it should take less than 4 seconds to throw the nade. Period.

Hope this helps to open your eyes abit mate, no flaming intended.

[ArmaVidz 0]

If anyone wants to see what good AI is, in ArmA, try GroupLinkII Plus.

I was quite impressed myself. And who knows, it might get better than that?

[Commander-598 0]

Quote[/b] ]

I can. I was TRAINED to do it and I was TRAINING people to run and reload. Of course it's not not recommended to run and reload while in a hostile ground or in a firefight but yeah, I've done it, I was trained to.

I know it's possible to do it, but I sure as hell wouldn't.

Quote[/b] ]

I don't know much about other militaries but when we were trained, the top skill was stamina. And we were doing this. Hell, they even had competitions for us to ski/run/swim for distances and then fire accurate shots to 150meters. And we all done it, perfectly well.

I'm not sure if we're understanding each other...running AND shooting is unrelated to stamina and has been proven to destroy accuracy. I personally feel that you're talking about running and then shooting...

Quote[/b] ]

I was carrying a TRG-42 (or in finnish military the Tarkkuuskivääri 2000) and a APILAS AT. I operated them both and it's procedure in the finnish military to carry the shrapnel vest, the ammunition for the both of the weapons AND a radio system sometimes. And I'm not talking about the small radios the US army uses but I'm talking about LV221's which in the US was used by the time the 2nd Rambo movie came out.

There is somewhat of a difference between what is basically a backpack (Right?) and an extra pair of rifles in addition to the one you've already got and your rocket launcher. Unless he was wondering why you could have carry a rifle + AT weapon and not rifle + smg, in which case we're arguing over nothing. The MP5 would just be taking up useful ammo slots and be overall less useful than just the M4.

Quote[/b] ]I kinda agree and disagree with you on this one. A real trainer soldier would prepare his grenades when going into battle and he would take less than 4 seconds to get it out, pull the pin and throw it. It took me less than 4 seconds to disemble my rifle when I was prepared to do it. But then again, it might come as a surprise and you would have to search for the grenade and so on. But taken the circumstances, you are in a combat zone in ArmA and you SHOULD be prepared. So it should take less than 4 seconds to throw the nade. Period.

I'd love to know how you "prep" a grenade...aside from just having it in a place where you can get to it easy. I estimate it would take 1.5 seconds at the bare minimum for a human being to get the grenade and pull the pin and an extra second to throw it. So I say about a minimum of three...Four seconds is definitely acceptable. I'm not totally clueless here, I am holding an empty M62 Frag Grenade and unless there's been some revolution in hand grenade technology since it went out of style I'm guessing it still will take some effort to throw one.

Quote[/b] ]Hope this helps to open your eyes abit mate, no flaming intended.

I didn't see any flaming...just information. While I may not have first hand military experience, I have been feeding off first hand experiences for some time, and I do have decent experience with firearms and various woodsy things like tracking and stealth.

[General Barron 0]

I love OFP/ArmA/BIS as much as the next guy, but I do sense a bit of blind-loyalty to them here.

I think liljb15 makes excellent points, which of course have also been raised by other ArmA/OFP players in the past. I completely agree with what he, and others supporting him, have been saying.

Why did someone have to write a *script* so that the "unscripted AI" would use suppressive fire (a fundamental component of warfare)?

It isn't a heresy to criticize the AI.

[NeMeSiS 11]

Why did someone have to write a *script* so that the "unscripted AI" would use suppressive fire (a fundamental component of warfare)?

'scripted' does not mean 'using scripts' (after all, the .fsm's are scripts too), its more like a 'movie script' where everything just happens in a linear and predefined way.

[Commander-598 0]

It is however heresy to criticize the AI for things that no other game has either. Especially when ArmA was never supposed to be a completely new OFP...that's what Game 2/ArmA2 was/is for. You're asking a bit much of something that is still basically the same game that was released about seven years ago.

[benreeper 0]

Comparing Arma's unscripted AI in a completely open playing field with hundreds of units to a heavily scripted corridor shooter with 10 AI IS heresy and only shows your hate for this game. Making unfair comparison's deals a blow to your credibility. Critiquing the game is one thing but threads like this do a disservice to any plausible critique.

Also concerning the sharpshooters in this game. They only kill me if I let them. If you play this game like any other shooter you will die. You do NOT have more hitpoints than the AI. You cannot go toe-to-toe in a firefight. When the AI shoots at you and misses on the 1st couple of shots (and they do miss, saying that they do not miss is a lie) you must run for cover and NOT turn around and fire back. If that's what you want to do then this is NOT the game for you.

--Ben

[liljb15 0]

Comparing Arma's unscripted AI in a completely open playing field with hundreds of units to a heavily scripted corridor shooter with 10 AI IS heresy and only shows your hate for this game. Making unfair comparison's deals a blow to your credibility. Critiquing the game is one thing but threads like this do a disservice to any plausible critique.

Also concerning the sharpshooters in this game. They only kill me if I let them. If you play this game like any other shooter you will die. You do NOT have more hitpoints than the AI. You cannot go toe-to-toe in a firefight. When the AI shoots at you and misses on the 1st couple of shots (and they do miss, saying that they do not miss is a lie) you must run for cover and NOT turn around and fire back. If that's what you want to do then this is NOT the game for you.

--Ben

How many times did I say that I don't play this game like other FPS's? How many times did I say that I love the Armed assault game except for this One little pet peve that I had? Did you even read this whole thread or did you just read the first 2 pages and post. Did you read the part where I said I'm only using those games as an EXAMPLE. All I was asking was " Could arma 2 do something like this? for example...etc."

But just because I think the arma AI isn't flawless I hate this game? just because I think the arma AI has a little room for improvement I'm a stupid BF2 noob? It's people like you that make me sick. Fanboys like you who meet any criticism with hostility. Fanboys like you who think this game is perfect and if you ask for one thing extra then "this game isn't for you". Well let me tell you something if you can't take a little bit of criticism for your precious game then this forum isn't for you.

[walker 0]

Hi all

@ liljb15

Do you understand that what you refer to in the other games you mentioned is script not AI?

If not let me repeat. As has been stated by many others what you asume wrongly is AI in those other games, is realy just a script. No neural nets involved.

The FSM editors exist for editing the AI in ArmA. It was the first tool available for ArmA.

If you can do better I invite you to show your expertise.

As somone who has experience of programming AI I know that in every single one of the programs you have mentioned their AI is inferior to that in ArmA. I know this because they are so easy to trick. That is why COD is such an easy game to beat.

Once you know what the script is in those other games you mentioned; you just repeat the solution. It works every single time, without exception. It is why each of the games you mention are so boring and have no long term game play in them. Most of them I completed in days.

The reason any AI is bad in urban environments, as has been noted by others in this thread, is the same reason real soldiers find it hard, urban environments are very complex, on levels you as a person with no AI programming or systems analysis experience do not yet understand. That is why all the games you mention, all use scripts in narowly defined controled corridors in such environments. It was too complex a problem for them to program.

BIS is the only company that has even tried an AI solution for urban environments.

Generalised script solutions are available in ArmA check out Kronzky's work.

When you understand AI, and how it works, you will stop making statements that can make you seem foolish in the eyes of others.

Until then once again I invite you to begin learning about AI start up an FSM editor and prove you know what you are talking about.

Kind Regards walker

[General Barron 0]

Okay, this is getting out of hand.

bis forum == players forum

players != developers

You do not have to be a programmer in order to critique a game. The point of a game is entertainment. Anyone can critique whether something is entertaining to them or not.

OPINION:

I find it entertaining to fight opponents that take cover and use suppressing fire. I do not think the ArmA AI does that very well or at all. That is what this thread is about.

As a player, I don't care whether it would be hard or easy to implement (just like I don't care how easy/hard normal-mapping, or hdr, or whatever was to implement), I just think it would make the game better.

If others do NOT find that entertaining, or if they think the AI really DOES do that, then that is a worthwhile comment to make. But to put someone down because of their opinion, or to say "let's see you do better", is not very constructive.

[walker 0]

Hi Baron

"let's see you do better", is the most constructive statment in ArmA.

I know your work and know you have tried as has Kroxky and many others including myself.

I am merely pointing out that liljb15 is confusing a holywood script with an AI.

If I goad him into trying out the FSM editors reading up on the process's involved and working on a real AI then I have educated him and he may come up with some solutions that would benefit us all.

Or I could just leave him in his ignorace.

I prefer the former.

Kind Regards and much respect walker

[PASTOR 0]

liljb15 I agree, the game would have been fantastic if the AI actually reacted like any soldier is teched in basic training.

I never experienced a flanking maneuver in Arma, so I fired up the editor, and overlookedthe action from a civilian perspective.

Flanking:

I created a mission using nothing but the basics the editor had to offer. Three squads with best possible skill against one mid skilled squad that had stationary weapons, cover from two different fortresses, 2 stationary machine guns and soldiers placed around the permiiter. I made sure that the attacking squads had excellent possibilities to out flank the rigged defense.

None of the three squads reacted by using flanking maneuvers. Instead they lay down on the ground shooting back and were taken one by one by the two machine guns placed in the fortresses. The squads attacking had the option of taking concealment behind trees, stones, a fortress and bushes. The few that actually moved them self went behind a bush instead using the fortress, stones or trees. The rigged squad lost 3 men.

Flanking2:

I guessed since all three attacked dead on that flanking weren't used. So I put one squad in the middle and two others 45 degrees out on each side of squad 1.

Same thing happened, the squads were taken under fire, they fired back and not one single soldier did anything that resembled a flanking maneuver.

Flankig3:

I wanted to find out if they actually made use of stationary weapons like the MG in the fortresses so I removed the MGs with people and replaced them with empty ones.

Not one single MG were used, instead the squad lay down on the ground and got cut to pieces. Nor they take advantage of the concealment the fortresses would give them.

The way I see it, the AI of this game is close to worthless unless you add a bunch of pre-written behavior scripts. I think that the behavior of the COD AI is more real, not that I try to make similarities to the games, since they are both completely different in every aspect except for war. But at least in COD they have the AI of basic battledrills. Take cover, lay suppressive fire, take cover, use stationary weapons etc. I think in a game of Arma's magnitude and potential basic combat knowledge and battle drills is a must have, without having to add third party scripts. The use of better cover, fixed MG positions should be mandatory.

[4 IN 1 0]

we are going round and round on the "how hard can it be" question i think

maybe someone could creat an AI system that can do all your dreams but till now i cant see any of those being done, putting those "AIs" on CQB based games into ArmA? i wonder will they even know where to go and what to do even if i give them waypoints

p.s. from last i heard BIA, those who due with VBS2 is working with some university to creat AIs that do as human/soldier like as possible, but i dont think that these AI will be seen on any gameing product for any company that make FPS games, just think of the work load on doing such things..........

[4 IN 1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Please point to a solider that cant run and reload.

*Points to Every Soldier in the World*

You probably could but I'd put good odds on a soldier dropping the new mag or tripping over something and face planting.

*Points to every soldier in the world*

of cause you can, its just that i wont do it when under direct fire, too much to care about

Quote[/b] ]Please show me a solider that cantt o adjust his sights on his weapon.

Quote[/b] ]Show me a game where that's actually a feature.

ah~! someone clearly missed Something

[walker 0]

Hi PASTOR

Try a mission set to the following.

Create 2 Civilians, one of them is you. Use this as your observer. Alternativley use a camera script. (Better IMHO)

Create two Guarded by Triggers: One Guarded by Bluefor, one Guarded by Opfor. Place both triggers on the exact same spot, the spot you wish the two sides to contest.

Create one standard squad for each side. Do not alter any inteligence factors. Give each squad a single waypoint each, in each case set the waypoints to guard.

Copy and paste multiple squads to test more complex behaviour. Vary weight of the two forces to examine the effect of force ratios.

Place Bluefor inside the two guarded by triggers.

Create a scout squad for the attacking force, Opfor in this case and have it move into the guarded by triggers so that it comes into observation of the Bluefor and can itself be aware of Bluefor.

Preview the mission.

You will observe flanking manuvers by individual and small group (1 or 2), members of squads if force is small and by whole squads if force is large.

My guess is that you either overscripted or over waypointed with your experiment.

The above experiment has resulted in numerous flanking operations in ArmA and is the basis for most good AI. Less is more, and the guard waypoint and guarded by triggers are the key to good mission making in ArmA just the same as it was with OFP.

Kind Regards walker

[MBot 0]

I think liljb15 makes an excellent point and I am surprised by the "head-into-sand" attitude that many have shown here. Cover is one of the most fundamental apsects of the last centurys infantry warfare, yet is almost completly absent in OFP/ArmA. How this can be defended is completly beyond me.

Also the comment that surpressive fire is overestimated realy made me smile, considering that the US forces in Iraq spend about 250'000 rounds of ammo per confirmed kill ( http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article314944.ece ).

The realism of infatry combat has always be my main complaint about OFP and I realy hoped ArmA would improve this. Unfortunately it failed to do so. Now I hope for ArmA2...

[Dallas 9]

In Vietnam the bullet kill ratio were 16.000 to 1 and now you're telling us it's fifteen times less accurate. Maybe it really is overestimated.