Body Armor In ArmA

[bob1787 0]

7.62mm, not far, SVD Dragunov

i remember seeing this on www.military.com about a year or so ago

[ShrubMiK 0]

Given the claims being made for the effectiveness of body armour here, it's a wonder anybody ever gets killed by a bullet at all

[churnedfortaste 0]

The sniper hit him in the chest on his body armour, nearly getting his neck, I read about it on an article, think it was military.com...

Please stop the juvenile crap and arguing with me, I'm not bsing...

[ShrubMiK 0]

Can somebody actually find a credible article with some real details in then, rather than "I remember I read something about it ages ago..."? No details with the vid that i could see, could be you're talking about a totally different incident for all I know.

Something bugs me a bit about that vid...

Who was doing the filming, why, and at what range?

[churnedfortaste 0]

It was an iraqi insurgent, Inside the boot of a car filming through peekholes in the car, and there was also a peekhole for the SVD sight and barrel to fit through...

If you understand how body armour works, a bullet hitting body armour spreads out the force, aswell as it not going right through the soldiers body, giving it far more impact, thus knocking him to the ground.

If it hit his leg, it would probably break the bone inside, and he would not be able stand up so quickly, if it hit his head, he would die, be knocked unconscious or too disorientated to get up that quickly...

There is loads of videos of US soldiers getting sniped for propaganda reasons, to lower the morale of supporters and soldiers...

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

Some say bodyarmour is already in ... well i havent tested it.

But a question occures... if those soldiers have bodyarmour, than you should be able to put at least 10x 9mm Para (Mp5) rounds into a mans torso from 100 meter without the man being injured or knocked down. Is this so ?

[churnedfortaste 0]

You must have seen the video of the shootout outside an North-Hollywood bank, a few armour-clad (arms and legs aswell as chest) robbers armed with AK-47's and G3a3's, were getting shot with 9mm's and one guy was walking around as if he were invincible, until eventually someone got a lucky headshot and he died...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_hollywood_shootout

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

just read the whole article ... thanks.

A standard 5.45x39 or a 7.62x39 are NOT able to pierce a bulletproof vest 6BZTM ( class III I believe) at 100 meters.

I do not tend to exagerate the effectivness of body armour but you should neither do the mistake to exagerate the effectivness of rounds.

Take this as a reference

[churnedfortaste 0]

In a firefight in ArmA, knocking you to the ground and making you disorientated would be worse than putting you near death but still being able to shoot back immediately...

[BOROVIK 0]

It will be nice to have the choice to use or to not use the body armor, it will be great also to see the infantry wearing the complete IBA (groin, neck, yoke, torso, back) system and the special forces the CIRAS. Maybe BIS can create the wearing system like in Diablo, Jagged Alliance, what do you think?? Once you take more you move slower -> you get tired faster and you shoot less accurate ?? Nowadays the average infantryman can take up to 1/3 of his weight of equipment, pouches rounds etc... This kind of wearing system can be a great challenge to add modular systems to the game and a lot of new objects.

Don't forget that the modern body armor is a two piece system, the soft panels (kevlar) and the hard ones(ceramic, steel) called SAPI plates one in the front (torso) and the second in on the rear. The soft kevlar offers protection against shrapnels and 9mm rounds and everything less powerfull than 9mm. The hard plates can stop the 7.62 round. Last question... Ok, the west can have body armors but what about the east. Maybe someone can take a look for russian body armors?? I don't know if they use any...

[bob1787 0]

actually i remember they did an interview with the guy, its on youtube but theyve probably filtered it off by now

there was a bit of contreversy about it so theyve tried to take the majority of it off for no reason other than the independant demanded it so

http://youtube.com/watch?v=zKRlzJ6VNBc

Quote[/b] ]oldier survives attack; captures, medically treats sniper

During a routine patrol in Baghdad June 2, Army Pfc. Stephen Tschiderer, a medic, was shot in the chest by an enemy sniper, hiding in a van just 75 yards away. The incident was filmed by the insurgents.

Tschiderer, with E Troop, 101st “Saber†Cavalry Division, attached to 3rd Battalion, 156th Infantry Regiment, 256th Brigade Combat Team, 3rd Infantry Division, was knocked to the ground from the impact, but he popped right back up, took cover and located the enemy’s position.

After tracking down the now-wounded sniper with a team from B Company, 4th Battalion, 1st Iraqi Army Brigade, Tschiderer secured the terrorist with a pair of handcuffs and gave medical aid to the terrorist who’d tried to kill him just minutes before.

http://shockandblog.blogspot.com/2005_07_01_archive.html

Quote[/b] ]WATCH INCREDIBLE VIDEO OF U.S. ARMY SOLDIER (PFC. TSCHIDERER) SURVIVING A HIT FROM A SNIPER'S BULLET

The following is a letter of appreciation from PFC Stephen "Doc" Tschiderer, U.S. Army

Dear Point Blank,

First let me say thank you for saving my life!! I am forever grateful!!!! My name is PFC Stephen Tschiderer, and I am currently deployed to Bagdhad, Iraq. Yesterday, July 2, 2005, I was on patrol and while proving security around my Humvee, I was shot by a sniper. This sniper was useing a Draganov sniper rifle with AP rounds. The round struck me at an angle and did not come through the SAPI plate. Enclosed are some pics of the plate and what the round did to me, which thanks to you guys is only a small mark. My family and everyone that knows me sends our thanks and keep up the GREAT work.

THANK YOU AGAIN!!!

PFC Stephen “Doc†Tschiderer

E Troop 101 CAV 256BCT

Bagdhad, Iraq

http://www.pointblankarmor.com/news.asp

[mrj-fin 0]

I wanna to see in ArmA as well made body damage than i Soldier of Fortune 2´s Ghould 2 technology allowe a quit realistic visual damage whit real holes on corpses.

[vilas 477]

in ARMA there are no working vests, smaller fence is problem because soldier cannot jump, satchel charge or RPG doesn't destroy/activate AT mines, you shot to AI and even in deep forest it know exactly where are you - no shock, no disorientation :/

AI do not obey orders, you wanna crawl silently into the enamy base, unheard, unseen but your AI start to fire even if you give order don't fire (3-2)

in Poland on BOX there is written "most realistic battlefield simulating software" - definitely it is not

[Second 0]

EDIT: Removed LOOOOOTS of whining about little almost useless tiny feature called bodyarmor.

[eihort 0]

At the heart of this software is a game. Meant for fun. As such, some allowances are made for balancing issues.

One of which is body armor.

Another thing to remember is that it's no so much killing you, but making you combat ineffective. Do we really need a game with soldiers rolling around in pain on the ground, screaming, and crying for a medic? For the sake of simplicity, the game simply counts you as dead.

[Beagle 684]

Another thing to remember is that it's no so much killing you, but making you combat ineffective. Do we really need a game with soldiers rolling around in pain on the ground, screaming, and crying for a medic? For the sake of simplicity, the game simply counts you as dead.

This point is likely overseen by gamers.

Well, It does not really matter. If two thirds of gamers want interceptor body armor, give it to them... but in this case I want to have my good old G3A3 back in to business.

with magazines full of this little friends...!

My experience with older military protection vests was just that, nice to wear only in wintertime, horrible in summertime...;)

[Adv 0]

I will agree in cases such of the 9mm. I've read several things about the 9mm's continued lack of preformance in some isolated cases in Iraq and then theres its long history with law enforcement. Same ole story bad guys hit several times and still having a large amount of time to fight back. I'm sure your all familiar with those issues.

My concern is this and I hinted at it in my last post but didn't explain it well. Thinking of what really goes on in the game, think back to the times you've been hit. Now lets assume they add a 200% hit bonus to all aspects of the tropps damage model, it would make no differance. Why? because the AI will fire 2 or 3 sniper shots to kill you instead of 1. And they will do it so rapidly it will make no differance how much armour you have. Remember back to all the times you've been killed, for me at least theres many times where I recive a barrage of accurate fire instead of the lone sniper shot.

We are talking of tenths of seconds of additional life even with a very large armor upgrade. Thats my only concern, that until thats fixed all other efforts will be frusterated.

[max power 21]

If they put in better body armor, they should make blow back possible too. If you get shot, you go down... you may not be wounded, but you're still going to hit the ground.

I think the best words I've ever heard anyone say about body armor is its not worn to keep you from getting wounded, its there to keep the bullet from passing through you to the buddy behind you.

Wrong. There are many reasons to fall down after you get shot. Being 'blown' off of your feet isn't one of them.

The vests that soldiers carry are to protect *them* from fragments and such. Not to protect anyone else. Any other benefit gained from such equipment is a bonus.

[churnedfortaste 0]

Thanks bob1787, you've made some kids who love to argue stand down

The AI in ArmA isn't right with it's accuracy anyway, that doesn't mean there should be no chance involved when you get hit...

Maybe if they implemented body armour but also brought in bleeding...

Or maybe I'll just wait for ACE to come out.

[dreday 1]

My concern is this and I hinted at it in my last post but didn't explain it well. Thinking of what really goes on in the game, think back to the times you've been hit. Now lets assume they add a 200% hit bonus to all aspects of the tropps damage model, it would make no differance. Why? because the AI will fire 2 or 3 sniper shots to kill you instead of 1. And they will do it so rapidly it will make no differance how much armour you have. Remember back to all the times you've been killed, for me at least theres many times where I recive a barrage of accurate fire instead of the lone sniper shot.

Adv,

Good point.  However, there  is a simple and brute solution to fix the AI sniper fire problem.  It has been posted to this forum a million times over.  There is also a more elegant solution that involves updating the config.cpp.  Both of them will work, so this issue should not really hinder the much needed implementation of body armour.

Peace,

DreDay

[ShrubMiK 0]

So, back to the video...I suspected the answer might be that it was made for propaganda purposes.

But it still doesn't add up, not without more questions being asked.

Are you saying the sniper rifle was also fired from the same place the filming was done from? To me it look like the impact came from somewhere to the right, given that the target staggered slightly back to the left (from the camera point of view).

Was the film captured and released by the US? OR rleased by the insurgents? If the latter, why? Releasing a video that shows you are unable to kill an unsuspecting target from 75m is hardly good propaganda, and is if anything likely to bolster US troop morale.

Not quite sure what Bob187 did to "shoot down" any dissenting voices. I'd still like to see something authoritative on the subject, not quotes on youtube or some random blog.

[ShrubMiK 0]

Doing a search now...I'm still dubious. Plenty of hits for "Stephen Tschiderer", but many of them are identical wording, i.e. people simply reposting something they saw elsewhere. I'll keep searching for something that doesn't smack quite so much of urban myth.

(I notice how many of the stories have an over-the-top heroic ring to them, which makes me think "propaganda"...but not by Iraqi insurgents.)

I also find myself wondering why somebody shooting a sniper rifle at short range didn't aim for a weaker spot, against anear-stationary target.

One other thought...maybe my assumption that the impact was from somewhere to the right was incorrect. A glancing blow to the chest (facing more or less to the right), fired from somewhere around the camera location, might equally have caused a stumble backwards and to the left. But then a glancing blow wouldn't be a true test of the protective capabilities of the armour.

[victor26 0]

The camera jumps when the shot is made and there is a metalic ring like is was fired inside of an enclosed metal area. If you have ever been shooting at an outdoor range where they use those tin huts to protect you from the sun and such or an indoor pistol range with metalic walls you would recognize that sound right away. Also if you have ever hunted inside a blind and forgot to stick the end of the muzzle outside the blind (which the sniper probably did since a rifle muzzle sticking out of a vehicle or whatever tends to draw attention) you would know why the camera jumped. I would say there should be little doubt that the shooter was in the same enclosure as the filmer. They did say they were captured so it is likely it was released by the US.

But back on topic, I don't see how there is a debate whether or not body armor protects you AT ALL. There has to be millions of cases of body armor stopping bullets. The debate should be to what degree they protect. And if they claim they are bullet proof or resistant to rifle rounds with the metalic plates I would think there has to be at least some truth to. If not, I would imagine they would be facing huge lawsuits similar to what happened to Second Chance Body Armor.

[-CS-SOBR-1st-I-R- 0]

I'd opt for some form of propaganda too. A friends of mine in russian SOBR said that they would wear two bulletproof vests to have a better chance to survival the Dragunovs (7.62x54R) bullet.

Anyway... that shouldnt be the subject here.

[churnedfortaste 0]

It was going to be used for propaganda, but the insurgents got captured and the US released it probably to show that 'juba' misses sometimes.