Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA

[shadow 6]

Merged Real life tactics with this.

[celery 8]

Merged Real life tactics with this.

Not necessarily a good choice because the real life thread was strictly about real life tactics, not Dyslexic's guide which is written for tactical gaming.

[Second 0]

Merged Real life tactics with this.

Not necessarily a good choice because the real life thread was strictly about real life tactics, not Dyslexic's guide which is written for tactical gaming.

Real life tactics is very-very fading term... They are guidelines only to make as sure as possible that leader doesn't decide to do things complitely wrong way. They aren't strick rules... So gaming tactic can be used in RL and other way around (only thing is that what works and what doesn't work). Anyways: Tactic is hilarious term, as tactic is something about leading company/batallion or bigger units (depending of army). lesser units uses combat-technicues (or how is it spelled?) by my understanding.

Basicaly Dyslexic's guides offers guite same selection (if not complitely same) what i've noticed to be typed in US manuals. And what proves scale and simulation level of ArmA that they do work and maybe they would work in any other games too, if there would be space and manpower enough to preform them and actually gain something in using them.

[walker 0]

Hi all

The thread is about how and where you apply real world tactics in ArmA. Dslyecxi's article is about just that. You only have to go there and see it is so

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

We already know that Real World tactics can be applied in large scale OFP and because so many of the worlds armed forces use VBS now. They went and tested and found there was training value in the product.

With ArmA having solved the clipping errors of OFP now we can start practicing real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA in an urban setting FISH or MOUT is now possible.

We need some dynamic buildings in ArmA to practice this and some FISH/MOUT tools, portable scaling ladders, flash bangs, door rams, sledge hammers, Harvey wall-bangers and the like; to make use of the such dynamic buildings but this is all simple modding. We could also do with some casualty carry modding.

We all know that ArmA capable of more than the old CS styles of play while they were an amazing innovation 10 years ago they are a little out of date and the new incoming players tend to want and expect the stronger and more realistic forms of game we see growing in ArmA.

Hopefully we will see more proper urban maps and proper house clearance techniques being applied, such professional style play would allow the urban CTF fans to broaden their understanding of just how good ArmA is and continue to increase the numbers of people playing the more cerebral forms of game play.

I do not think realistic team PvP urban FISH/MOUT scenarios will totally replace CTF as the preferred form of urban scenario; I think there will always be a place for a mad half hour of death and unlimited re-spawn, but it quickly becomes boring and gamers demand more. Game forms such Berzerk, CTI and Evolution are forward looking and require cooperation and community. From the CoC point of view we see ArmA moving forward to fully realised persistent world MMPG's which is surely the holy grail of sim gaming.

Dslyecxi's work is about teaching those new incoming gamers about the culture of OFP and ArmA and in that way continuing it. One of the great things about OFP/ArmA is that we work as a community trying to improve the game play with addons scenarios scripts islands and totally new forms of game play that have only come into existence with the freedom OFP and ArmA gives us.

We are discussing this after all to improve ArmA and to make more out of it thus making the game even more enjoyable.

Kind Regards walker

[dslyecxi 23]

Tactic is hilarious term, as tactic is something about leading company/batallion or bigger units (depending of army)...

What? I don't know where you got that idea. Tactics has no bearing on the size of the unit. There are individual tactics, group tactics, etc.

For reference:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tactic

[Second 0]

Tactic is hilarious term, as tactic is something about leading company/batallion or bigger units (depending of army)...

What? I don't know where you got that idea. Tactics has no bearing on the size of the unit. There are individual tactics, group tactics, etc.

For reference:

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/tactic

Then there has been language barries between us... Well thanks, i tought that this is strictly gaming term

What we are disgussing in here is basically using something like "combat methods" and "combat technicues" in english translated from my language. Nice that that misunderstanding has been corrected.

[walker 0]

Hi all

Tactics as I understand it is about the small scale maneuver of your resources to obtain objectives needed to attain the overall strategic goal.

Generally tactics are the activities of fire teams, squads, sections, platoons, companies and maybe up to small battle group after this we start to consider strategic goals rather than just tactical objectives.

A good rule of thumb might be right up to battalion level it is all tactics from battalion onward one starts to talk about strategy.

Kind Regards walker

[frederf 0]

A formation is a relative position of members of a group. (example wedge)

A maneuver is a movement. (example flank right)

A tactic is a tool simple set of actions to achieve something. (example two team fix and flank drill)

A strategy is an abstract plan. (Enemy-oriented direct fire offensive action)

They are not interchangeable. The word tactic gets used rather liberally around here, almost as much as "realistic." I really like looking at dyslexi's guide as it certainly increases my own knowledge. After all is said and done you have to do what works with you and is within you knowledge and abilities.

[Barely-injured 0]

As always amazing work Dslyecxi, as with all of your previous amazing writings this one was quite insatiable. I read it in two sittings but only because of backache from sitting too long on a stiff chair and from my eyes hurting too much from reading.

I dont understand how this thread turned from discussing Dslyecxi's amazing work, to whether or not these things work in CTF, no they are not needed in CTF for the simple funny fact that real life platoons and squads dont run around in a "boundary defined area" trying to capture an enemy "Flag" and then "Rush" it back to the friendly "Base".

As for the other sensible ArmA application they most certainly work and work very well at that. So in this regard Dslyecxi has done an amazing work and I think we should give him the respect that he deserves.

[dslyecxi 23]

As always amazing work Dslyecxi, as with all of your previous amazing writings this one was quite insatiable. I read it in two sittings but only because of backache from sitting too long on a stiff chair and from my eyes hurting too much from reading.

I dont understand how this thread turned from discussing Dslyecxi's amazing work, to whether or not these things work in CTF, no they are not needed in CTF for the simple funny fact that real life platoons and squads dont run around in a "boundary defined area" trying to capture an enemy "Flag" and then "Rush" it back to the friendly "Base".

As for the other sensible ArmA application they most certainly work and work very well at that. So in this regard Dslyecxi has done an amazing work and I think we should give him the respect that he deserves.

A parallel thread appeared about an hour after this one did, it was about "real life tactics applied to videogames". All the talk you see of CS, CTF, DM, etc came from that thread - it was merged in here today. This thread was really polite in comparison.

Glad you liked it, and thanks for the compliments.

[OblivionX 0]

He he... this thread become confusing when it was merged with that other thread. Is it about Dslyecxi awesome guide or a argue about CTF,DM and rl tactics?

I have read the guide 3 times now and my sp game experience is improving while I use the some of the tactics in the guide(i.e I dont die all the time ). I think I was more of a gunhoo before and now I take a bit more slow and "slice the pie" every chance i get.

3:45am here and

[lilwillie 47]

With "CS" are you referring to the average CTF team?

What I was attempting to refer to was a comparison between teams that use real life tactics in game compared to a team that allows everyone to run off and do their own thing.

I was comparing a structured team to choas. The original thread my post was in asked if real life tactics work in game and my answer is, yes, they do. Then I compared them, poorly, to groups that have no structure and just run off shooting and looting with no teamwork.

[OrLoK 20]

hello

at the risk of being horribly contraversial, can we have one thread about dis' great site and one about tactics?

Ok, i know there may be threads on other sites about similar stuff, but i post here as i like this particular community.

I think IMHO it's unfair to compare the two threads, but hey it's your "lounge" and i will respect any mods desicion, as i ran a board with 2k members meself so i know how diff it is to keep all happy and a board clean of guff.

But i do feel its become a bit confused.

Yes Dix's site did to some length influence my original post, but  it was somthing that i had thought about befoore his site (good as it is) came into being.  

And unfortunatly due to the similar time of the threads (my fault perhaps) they seem to have run together in a squidgy mess.

Regardless of dix's site or any other clan/squad, the point i tried feeblely to make was (perhaps poorly stated at the time) what real life tactics work and how and why andd if the engine allows.

I'm the first to admit my diction isnt the best and i know i tend to whaffle.

But, i do believe both threads had value.

One to say what people found of dix's site and pros and cons of such. (btw I do like the images and the effects added to em is that general arma screen cap or have they been PShopped?).

The other to say: what worked or not in the arma universe.

The only reason i say this, is not to push my point (which is to generally play devils advocate) but to keep the threads clear in point.

Again, I will reiterrate that i realise we are "guests" here and i Do appreciate that. Just I think the general flow has now been lost, and if thats down to me I apologise.

sorry to be a pain.

Rgds

LoK

ps

oh, and another reaon i would have preferred this seperate as there became some arguments between "opposing factions" which referred to dix's site and i did try to steer it away from that as i believed it was off topic re my origional question.

But, Im happy with whatever you chaps/chapesses decide.

Just my point of view, correct or incorrect, so please take me post in the way it's intended

again rgds

LoK

[dwringer 45]

I always thought of this thread as being more about the specific guide itself (written by dyslexci or however it's transposed ;p), more like "Tactics, Techniques and Procedures for ArmA" were the title of the Actual GUIDE, and not the suggested topic of discussion for this thread. Perhaps this thread should simply be renamed to indicate this fact; although it's a moot point if no other thread on Tactics is allowed to operate.

Basically, I don't think this thread specifically was intended for general discussion of Real-Life tactics in ArmA as much as it was intended for the release, dissemination, and discussion of the ShackTactical guide...

*shrug* I CERTAINLY don't mean to be controversial here, just dropping in my two cents

[Gecko1969 0]

The merger gave me some confusion as I could not understand how the thread was getting OT. . .

So on topic(s) I have found the guide a great read and look forward to more revisions when they come.

My game play has changed when fighting the AI. Side note I need to try out some of the Advanced AI setups others are doing to see what the changes are. I won't go in to all the changes I have done to survive the AI but will give one example. The "vision" of the AI is such that they do not scan a view of the area, but see every part with equal "awareness". So while getting on a roof of a tall building would be valid against humans all it does is allow every AI within range to see you as well as if you were standing in a flat open lot. Same with looking out a window or balcony. If an AI was below five levels down on the street, but happened to be facing the building you were in, the moment you move to the edge to look down on them they instantly "see" you above them and proceed to shoot you in the little bit of your head that you have exposed.

To give the AI more realistic vision is hard and can be expensive CPU wise, so I understand why BIS did it this way, but hope the community will create better solutions so that real world tactics work better.

I don't play any of the other forms and comments like spawn camping confirm why I'd never go back to it (much of that is map makers fault anyway). But parts of the guide should help any beginner player to work together better, and communicate more effectively. I stand by the adage to the effect of "No plan holds up to first contact" but knowing what roles are needed and what needs to be done sure help.

[Gaizokubanou 0]

With "CS" are you referring to the average CTF team?

What I was attempting to refer to was a comparison between teams that use real life tactics in game compared to a team that allows everyone to run off and do their own thing.

I was comparing a structured team to choas. The original thread my post was in asked if real life tactics work in game and my answer is, yes, they do. Then I compared them, poorly, to groups that have no structure and just run off shooting and looting with no teamwork.

Oh of course, an organized group of people with average aim will win over unorganized group of slightly above average aim. I could argue against real life tactic by claiming that gamey clans would destroy realistic but chaotic behaviors, but that's just horrible for a comparison.

What if one group organized around real life tactics and the other with more gamey tactics? Which would be more efficient?

And man the thread merge was awkward (it sort of stole Dslyecxi's specific thread and turned it into a generalist one), but oh well I guess what's done is done.

[4 IN 1 0]

since the topic is already been i think that if we still keep going like this the topic would go no where then more off topic then b4

[nichevo 2]

On the topic of tactics used against AI (i.e. in cooperative missions):

The full list of "good" tactics compromises of both things that would work in real life and things that are totally bizarre. Conversely, the full list of "bad" tactics comprises of both things that work in real life and things that are totally bizarre.

Sounds a bit much like set theory.

To illustrate the point, think of how you played the campaign (ArmA or OFP). You would've done some "real life" things that worked, like use cover, flank your enemy etc. You would've also done some bizarre things that worked, like roar up and squash enemies in your Stryker rather than engage with cannon from a distance, or make a fast getaway in a civilian car rather than creep away stealthily on-foot.

So it is folly to think that the best way to beat the AI is to strictly and exclusively employ real-world tactics. Because some schmo in a jeep will run over the AI and do just as well. (Or, if he's not able to do that particular "exploit", he'll find another.) While I think ArmA's AI is quite good, sadly it is not immune to strage things working against it. We'll probably have to wait a few decades at least before any game's AI comes close...

Don't get me wrong. I'm not insinuating that you, as a reader, didn't ever consider this. Also, I think detailed writings on real-world tactics are useful. They have use in co-op. They have lots of use in various PvP scenarios. And they're fun if you like the "immersion factor" of doing things like the real-world militaries.

One could write a guide on "Bizarre Tactics that are Effective Agaisnt the AI" but it would only be good for ArmA, and it might be totally inaccurate after a few patches.

[walker 0]

Hi all

For me the threads are about the same subject. They are both discussing how and where real Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures apply to ArmA. It makes far more sense to combine them that way we are not hopping from one to the other to keep up.

The original thread by Dslyecxi was not just to inform with a working detailed example of how to apply real world Tactics, Techniques, and Procedures for ArmA it was to promote debate. It did so from a reasoned academic style base in the form of Dslyecxi's article.

http://dslyecxi.com/armattp.html

With it we have a thesis on which to conduct debate and base anti-thesis. Without discussing Dslyecxi's work we arguing without substance. You cannot after all ignore the work it is there in the public arena for all to see, any argument without it has blinded itself to the ideas and evidence it brings to the debate.

In the light of the mass of new US players set to join ArmA surely any reasoned discussion of how improve ArmA is to the benefit of ArmA.

We are discussing this after all in order to improve ArmA and to make more out of it thus making the game even more enjoyable.

That is a major part of the culture of OFP and ArmA. In comparison to any other game OFP and ArmA head and shoulders above the rest in allowing and promoting user contribution. It is about a community that has banded together to actively improve their own game. Dslyecxi's most recent work continues in the same vein as his previous work in OFP.

Non of us can have failed to notice that the ArmA tools forums are in the process of being opened. We all know that ArmA has reached a stable version with the majority of us able to play ArmA at nice resolution and FPS, although we can see BIS intend to continue to patch and improving ArmA as they did with OFP, that is after all what makes us recognise that BIS are not like other developers.

"BUT!" those tools forums tell us the true flowering of ArmA is about to happen as a million monkeys get given the typewriter.

Kind Regards walker

[celery 8]

With "CS" are you referring to the average CTF team?

What I was attempting to refer to was a comparison between teams that use real life tactics in game compared to a team that allows everyone to run off and do their own thing.

I was comparing a structured team to choas. The original thread my post was in asked if real life tactics work in game and my answer is, yes, they do. Then I compared them, poorly, to groups that have no structure and just run off shooting and looting with no teamwork.

When talking about real life tactics, the logical counterpart is not a chaotic zoo but a team that uses tactics that they have seen best for the situation in the game itself. Real life tactics is not the only way to have a well-structured and coordinated team.

I will quote my earlier post to bring out the point:

If all the CS players and RL players are on their respected comms I think over time the lack of coordination on the CS side would lead to their defeat. The numbers may be equal to kills and deaths in the field but I would want to believe the RL would work better to win outright threw superior tactics, firepower and cooridination.

To go back to my mention of guerilla sytle tactics used by the CS player. That makes them using real life tactics doesn't it? So in reality both styles of play are using real life tactics in Arma when the map is a realistic style map. When the map is a DM or CTF and not realistic both are still using real life tactics. Real life because ArmA is built to be a sim. Not a bunny hopper where you have a health bar and can carry 15 styles of weapons.

With "CS" are you referring to the average CTF team? If so, they are for from a disorganized horde with no coordination. You are implying that they don't use proper tactics, but they do. It's the case of real life tactics and techniques that don't apply so often in a tight packed combat situation against other human players. Why else would the "CS" players dominate the CTF games they are specialized in?

If there is a CTF squad that uses stuff straight from a real life CQB manual as opposed to intuitive gameplay and teamwork, I would like to know the name of the clan and how well they are doing in their clan wars and leagues overall. Right now the teams that are doing well in CTF competitions are the ones that rely on fluid teamwork and individual expertise over strict military rules.

About the part where the CTF and DM players are using real life tactics, you are mixing carefully thought out maneuvers with common sense, normal teamwork and intuition. It's simple math that you die less with more cover and reloading when you're safe. CQB formations and suppressive fire are effective in theory but not in practise when it comes to those game modes. Of course some things work but to quote Obi-Wan: "only the Sith deal in absolutes".

[froggyluv 2130]

This thread has jut gotten down right weird. I don't recall Dslyecxi ever stating that his presented RL tactics are the ONLY way to play ARMA. They are however useful and enjoyable for many who do enjoy that type of gameplay so just leave it at that.

Dont like it- dont use it

[[aps]gnat 28]

eeeeekkkkkkkk ! ..... what the hell happened to this thread. Suffice to say I don't think it was "a great tactic" .... or is that "a great strategy"

[Maddmatt 1]

Gnat @ April 30 2007,18:30)]eeeeekkkkkkkk ! ..... what the hell happened to this thread. Suffice to say I don't think it was "a great tactic" .... or is that "a great strategy"

A completely different (and not really related) thread was merged with it.

[TheElite 0]

Real shame this forum becomes more of a mess , just like vbs forum everyday.:(

not only thread been jacked i think the whole forum.

[dslyecxi 23]

The thread merge happened and nothing can be done about it. I don't even care which topic of conversation you want to discuss, just please get back on one of the topics so we can have something useful occurring in here.