ARMA Morealism, adding Ultra realism...

[dirtylarrygb 0]

Have you been playing PC games for 5-10 years or more please read:

This was suggested in another thread about women in ARMA. it's something i have been thinking about for some time.

OK, Grand Theft Auto gets a bad rep, you can run round car jacking and mugging everyone or, or play the game and do the taxi missions, amublance, firetruck and earn a legal living. Your sandbox Your choice.

Rockstar missed the idea they could have given 2 ways to play the game. legal and illegal livings. This would have negated many of the legal/media issues the game has had since.

Putting civilians, Men, Woman and Children into ARMA (even) pets (dogs cattle) would add a whole ton of realism. Yes, some idiot will line up ten women and drop a bus on them and upload the video to you tube.

ARMA will be called sick by some media. Get crap loads of free PR and probably sell another 10,000 copies.

Modders could add women and children BIH don't have to.

People could design missions that encourage and reward enthic cleansing FFS!!!!!

The danger of a sandbox is some people create wonder, others are totally negative.

Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Right now ARMA which is probably the most advanced sandbox game engine ever designed by mankind. Has the moral complexity of a game of childrens "cowboy and indians". Bang Bang your dead, that's it.

Lets add dogs in cities, they bark if you get close and may alert nearby units. So do you avoid them or shoot them?

So a new style of gameplay can be introduced, ultra Realism,Morealism yes no screen cursor no auto aim, bullet bounce, HDR etc but also moral choices.

Civilians in towns and cities. Troops that surrender and need to be gaurded taken to POW centres. Civilian evacuations. Relief efforts. rewards for not damaging civilian property.

Missions that feature these issue's can be marked MATURE, feature, ultra realistic gameplay. It can be shown to the press/media, real combat is being simulated even the moral choices and rewards and punishments that face many of our armed forces.

I think a TK should be punished by 5 mins in a cell for the offender. TK a viechle you get 5 mins in a cell for wasting resources. kill to many civilians off to jail for 5 mins as a war criminal.

Reality Coop-Missions would be popular with the "realism" players. As many people have said ARMA is OP:F with pretty GFX why not take the game play into the next century as well?

Thing is ARMA looks so realistic I feel bad shooting wounded troops. I actually think its a bit sick and very unrealistic. Once an enemy Ai trooper is wounded he should stop fighting and be calling for medical help, nearby units taking him to a medic and also not fighting.

When you look at ARMA as entertainment, it's moral realism ranks with "Commando" or a old John Wayne Film. Goods guy, bad guys, good guys kill all the bad guys.

Entertainment Media Like the Soprano's has the same level of violence as the above films (in fact is even more voilent) but adds huge moral complexity and lets the viewer decide who's good and bad. And is very popular because of it.

ARMA "Morealism" could allow the same moral choices to be made by an actual player.

Example mission:

Civilains on foot and car flee towards the player OPF front line down a road, the SLA are right behind them. Player has to engage SLA and defend for 10 mins. The end score is dealt by either:

A/ Player fails to defend, Headline read SLA show OPF have massacred a group of unarmed civilians. You lost SLA rigged the photos sent them to world press. UN meets to discuss santions against OPF and US.

b/ You win by defending, 0-3 civvies killed, Simulated newpaper headlines read "OPF save hundreds of lives as SLA try to massacre cilivians PLAYERS name is a hero and awarded a medal"

c/ You win 3-10 civvies killed, headline reads OPF saves hundreds of lives but SLA show reckless use of force by OPF has killed many families fleeing the battle. UN security Council to meet.

d/ You win 11+ civvies killed, headline reads OPF stops SLA attack but at what cost? World leaders demand apology from OPF commanders. Pictures show dead families on the roadside. world outrage at carnage.

This sort of mission with these endings would provide realistic gameplay and make things feel more important. Right now coop mode is kill everyone, clear town repeat. Mission ends, start again.

Fun shooting stuff, but there could be so much more to it.

I've been playing games on PC's for 27 years. I'm bored of "bang bang your dead" I want something better. ARMA has the graphical realism, but not the adult gameplay realism. In that respect ARMA is no different to Space Invaders In fact no modern games are.

Films and TV have become so much more complex since 1980, the moral issues in TV shows like Soprano's, 24, even Battlestar Galactica. Vs say the A Team?

Games have not moved 1 inch forward in almost 3 decades.

I gunna start making some coop missions featuring "Morealism" for ARMA. I need a bit of scripting help so if you intrested in making this sort of content pls PM me.

If this style of missions for SP and MP intrest you, please sign below.

I welcome input on this idea.

Note some civvies were hurt by me and a saw in the making of the above picture.

[Col. Faulkner 0]

Agreed, but you're not the first or the only one to think like

this. Such "Morealistic" missions have already been created

for Flashpoint, and a mod I personally was working on (and

which I'm seriously thinking of resurrecting in-part for ArmA)

featured this aspect heavily.

[amrax 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Yea right... ROFL... put people in jail in on online game.

Police State goes online...

Why not run an presidential election too.

What you want will just turn into political crap propaganda.

This idea will turn out to be bad!

[froggyluv 2136]

Larry you sick sick bastard

I've been modding sheep and other small farm animals into my games for the last 20 yrs- for my own, erhm, realistic experiences.

Seriously though, I'm completely behind you on this- more realism means more is at stake on each mission. How many times have we cleared towns, stopped convoys, stolen the car. Civilians really need to be fleshed out in this game. Screaming, cussin, even turning insurgent (proper English?) depending on how our soldiers behave. Bring it!

[dirtylarrygb 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Yea right... ROFL... put people in jail in on online game.

Police State goes online...

Why not run an presidential election too.

What you want will just turn into political crap propaganda.

This idea will turn out to be bad!

Well you shoot freindlys or civvies in real life you goto jail?

Why not. We are sending you to ARMA jail for 28 years, just 5 mins. But will make you think harder about what you shoot at in a Morealism game.

In normal ARMA blast the crap out of anything. In morealism think then shoot.

[dirtylarrygb 0]

Larry you sick sick bastard

I've been modding sheep and other small farm animals into my games for the last 20 yrs- for my own, erhm, realistic experiences.

Seriously though, I'm completely behind you on this- more realism means more is at stake on each mission. How many times have we cleared towns, stopped convoys, stolen the car. Civilians really need to be fleshed out in this game. Screaming, cussin, even turning insurgent (proper English?) depending on how our soldiers behave. Bring it!

Shoot to much lifestock, spend 1min out of game as you discuss compensation with the farmer.

[fasad 1]

Unfortunately it's a lot easier to use civilians in an childish/sinister manner than it is to create moral/ethically realistic scenarios. I swear I've seen the "how to make AI soldiers kill civilian" question asked about 5 times here. The good news is scripting can allow mission makers to create almost any scenario and result they choose. Again, creating civilian interaction is a very complicated challenge but could be used to add immensely to immersion and player motivation. I hope some realistically varied civilian models are created, the current ones all look like off duty soldiers to me.

[dirtylarrygb 0]

Unfortunately it's a lot easier to use civilians in an childish/sinister manner than it is to create moral/ethically realistic scenarios. I swear I've seen the "how to make AI soldiers kill civilian" question asked about 5 times here. The good news is scripting can allow mission makers to create almost any scenario and result they choose. Again, creating civilian interaction is a very complicated challenge but could be used to add immensely to immersion and player motivation. I hope some realistically varied civilian models are created, the current ones all look like off duty soldiers to me.

The first one im trying to create is more about if you shoot them (should be asier for me to script that)

War has always been about propeganda and as it has been bullets. perhaps even more so now.

single missions even campaigns can be linked on outcome, as you suggest the native population depending on your "media" score welcomes you as liberators or invaders!

Films and TV use this subject matters, games plod along with the space invaders idea.

ARMA is the FIRST photorealistic sandbox were such ideas can be done and provide an adult gameplay experience.

[Aurvan 0]

As I'm a long time roleplayer, I approve of adding what I like to call "roleplay" elements to the game (moral dilemmas, multiple ways of solving a problem, consequences for your actions). I guess too many people think roleplaying elements mean that you level up your character, and sadly that's all you do in most of the so called computer RPGs. But a few good ones do have some good old roleplaying elements that can be transfered to most other genres.

Another thing that would be nice was if you could interact with the civilians in a way. Ask them if they had seen any enemies nearby, and they would have short replies like "Yes/No/Not for a while" depending on if they have seen any or not. They could also be lying, depending on the player's relationship with that town's population. And if they found a weapon, they could pick it up and start shooting at what they perceived as their enemy.

But about children... even a fairly mature game like Vampire: Bloodlines, where you do stuff like enter a strip joint and butcher a stripper with a fire axe before you suck her blood, doesn't have any children in it. The only game I can remember that had children you can kill is Icewind Dale. A lot of games have cows and dogs you can kill, though.

COW KILL!

[Shadow_Spyder 0]

I give this idea 2 thumbs up. This is the kinda stuff I've been looking for in games since I can remember. I know the first fPS I ever got into, Tom Clancys Ghost Recon had some civilians, and there were lots of missions where if you shot them, mission over. I don't have ArmA just yet, but when I get it, I will be getting involved in mission making, and I will deffinitly be trying to make my missions as Realistic and Moralistic as possible.

[4 IN 1 0]

i think this would be something doing with Game 2,

but hey, thats not a sin tring to make it happen earlier

[dirtylarrygb 0]

As I'm a long time roleplayer, I approve of adding what I like to call "roleplay" elements to the game (moral dilemmas, multiple ways of solving a problem, consequences for your actions). I guess too many people think roleplaying elements mean that you level up your character, and sadly that's all you do in most of the so called computer RPGs. But a few good ones do have some good old roleplaying elements that can be transfered to most other genres.

Another thing that would be nice was if you could interact with the civilians in a way. Ask them if they had seen any enemies nearby, and they would have short replies like "Yes/No/Not for a while" depending on if they have seen any or not. They could also be lying, depending on the player's relationship with that town's population. And if they found a weapon, they could pick it up and start shooting at what they perceived as their enemy.

But about children... even a fairly mature game like Vampire: Bloodlines, where you do stuff like enter a strip joint and butcher a stripper with a fire axe before you suck her blood, doesn't have any children in it. The only game I can remember that had children you can kill is Icewind Dale. A lot of games have cows and dogs you can kill, though.

COW KILL!

Thanks all, I knew people who have been playing games for a decade must be getting bored a bit, as there FRAG's reach the 10 million mark...

Kids add a real moral dileama, no one can forget the picture of the buraned vietnamese girl from the veitnam conflict. That photo hurt the American public as much as the NVA did.

Evacuating children, adults, nursing mother's, may actualy panic real players. Children are the "Nukes" of the Morealism world.

But there are childrens play areas in the world of ARMA like women and toilets and cattle they are missing at the moment.

Interacting with civilians is a very good idea, but beyond my script abilities at the moment. But certainly one to consider.

I was amazed at both GRAW and GRAW 2 also being essentially Civilianless. The moral chickeness of the Games Developers showing through. Oblivion has proved even a single player world can be immersive for 100's of hours. I was impressed by the sandbox idea of the Evolution mission.

If you mixed the Evolution Sandbox with Morealism you end up with a gaming first. Actual real combat simulation.

It also amazes me the military have not done this, to simulate civilian encouters, pow capture, med evac for injured from both sides etc.

I shall plant more "headlines" in the thread tomorrow.

I'm reading up on a random generator so if you do shoot civvies, houses etc you may or may not see a headline telling you positive or negative feedback.

Sony and Microsft talk about providing entertainment for Adults on the consols and PC. But as far as I can see this means pretty GFX and physics. Gameplay has not moved a notch in years.

A commentator on the BBC website tonight talking about the release of the Uk sailors said modern warfare is as much about politics and the world media as anything else.

Films, Tv, Books (even comic books) embrace this subject, why not games? Or are games for kids and all we need is 3 decade old gameplay?

As mentioned above, some games put in a hostage or civilian If they die the mission ends. Which is generally rubbish, the mission should continue you face the consequence at the end.

Bombing a house to get a T72 could backfire when newspaper headlines the death of 3 families sheltering in the house. While using Special Forces to destroy the tank could result in a headline where the people in the nearest building thank their Liberators for saving their lives as the tank crew were going to drive over there shelter.

BF2 gave awards and medals for hurting the enemy and not hurting any of your own side doing it. These were hard to earn and higley valued. Mean't you were a good player! It's now down to can I create scripts that detect the destruction of building , deaths of civilians, wounded combantants and then trigger Random headline events and also a score associated with this.

[GAU-8 0]

i completely agree, for the morealism "sandbox" approach. if done in a controlled, "environment" like a "realism" squad, training could and would be more demanding,in the "THINK before you shoot" scenario. of course, this type of exercise can train you when to SHOOT before thinking (like when you cant tell what exactly it is, but its getting closer, and closer...and closer, and you have every reason to "defend yourself")

children get hurt, women get hurt, men get hurt...yet only men are portrayed, in war games, and sims.(well most) in war, you cant always tell who the enemy is. the soldier your shootin at, might have their countries version of the draft, wanting nothing to do with the war, where as the "friendly local" woman you deal with everyday...is full of deep hatred, wants to heartily drink your blood, and use the top of your skull as a soup bowl souvenier (sp?) and is willing to send her child with a grenade to off you. i think a virual "cost" of your actions is needed wether by moral dilemma, or in game actions afterwards.

[max power 21]

Quote[/b] ]Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Yea right... ROFL... put people in jail in on online game.

Police State goes online...

Why not run an presidential election too.

What you want will just turn into political crap propaganda.

This idea will turn out to be bad!

This is how it works in America's Army. That game has a lot of good things going for it. The online rank system and centralized player account information really does discourage stupidity.

When I played it for a brief period, I recall not really learning not to move when firing an rpg lest it go awry. I blasted my squad in the back a few times that way :/

Larry, when I first glanced over your post I quickly dismissed it as a second coming of the (sometimes quite infantile) threads about killing women / children / civilians that came before it. I thought your idea was a plea for amoral gameplay. I find out after actually reading it that it is quite the opposite! This idea, however, has quite a lot of interesting and positive possibilities. I have been playing videogames for well over a decade- probably a few years over 2 decades. Having a system of points related to morality and mission goals and punitive measures worked in to enforce them is an excellent idea. It pushes well past beyond the boundaries that AA:O has laid out before it, calling on the player to make actual decisions beyond 'do I tk for a larf or not?'.

[4 IN 1 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Yea right... ROFL... put people in jail in on online game.

Police State goes online...

Why not run an presidential election too.

What you want will just turn into political crap propaganda.

This idea will turn out to be bad!

This is how it works in America's Army.  That game has a lot of good things going for it.  The online rank system and centralized player account information really does discourage stupidity.

When I played it for a brief period, I recall not really learning not to move when firing an rpg lest it go awry.  I blasted my squad in the back a few times that way :/

honor points does discourage stupidity but it also encourage ppl to do other things which is worst then simple stupidity, so everything have its dark side, make sure how they work is another topic

since this topic is more to the things on what BI want to do with Game 2, and possiblily VBS2, we must take account to them, now i have no idea how Game 2 is going to be, but what we got here in ArmA and VBS2 is editable FSM, so is it possible the have a work around for a moral system? or is it possible to have scripts that would affect AIs behavior of all side so that if you do something really wrong even the most harmless AI would jump you?

p.s. oh yes backblast are also missing in arma but thats for other topic too

[max power 21]

honor points does discourage stupidity but it also encourage ppl to do other things which is worst then simple stupidity, so everything have its dark side, make sure how they work is another topic

If they are hacking their accounts to bypass playing for 4 weeks to get their 18c, it doesn't affect me at all. So long as they aren't killing me for no reason, I don't care.

[paragraphic l 2]

I like this idea but;

- If you implement it with mission design, things may vary to much

- "..." people might think off it to be too much work

- "..." you have to rework all the previous made missions

Something like this should be put into a config or something so that only thing you have to create is the mission how they are atm, and the scripts in config will add: civilians and animals, moral system, and all the other changes

[churnedfortaste 0]

Quote[/b] ]Of course BIH can act as a moral gaurdian and make a player sit in a ARMA jail cell for 10 mins everytime they kill a civvie, added in the game code to stop this.

Yea right... ROFL... put people in jail in on online game.

Police State goes online...

Why not run an presidential election too.

What you want will just turn into political crap propaganda.

This idea will turn out to be bad!

lawlz stopz babbling about your own insufficencies!11

[sirex 0]

Putting civilians, Men, Woman and Children into ARMA (even) pets (dogs cattle) would add a whole ton of realism. Yes, some idiot will line up ten women and drop a bus on them and upload the video to you tube.

i agree with your entire post, but i still find that sort of youtube video funny.

im a bad person

[icebreakr 3159]

We're playing these kind of missions from the day Czech version was released.

Examples of our missions:

- terrorists kill ANN reporters the moment negotiators arrive at the compound. Negotiators must remain still in the area or they get shot by them. Strike team must kill the terrorists and save negotiators. When the leader is dead negotiators can move and grab guns and assist in the situation.

- bus loaded with schoolars get hit by an RPG in the desert valley - more than 10 people dead. Recon moves in with air support. Terrorist soon retreat to a factory complex...

- insurgent side must kill as many civilians in the village as possible until SOFOR units (player by guys on the blufor side) arrive. Terrorists must escape to the house where they hold a family hostage. They can kill them immediately, set up booby traps, etc...

- player must drive car with a bomb into the checkpoint (delayed trigger makes it possible to get out alive or just stay there) while support team starts to shot as soon as the bomb goes off.

- insurgents must set bombs at the crowded marketplace. Players are dressed as civilians and after the mission they can join the insurgent squad (opfor) for an escape via chopper.

[Infam0us 10]

I would love a more realistic enviroment to play ArmA in ... reminds me in a way of Splinter Cell by enemys being alerted by other people running and animals.

When are the animals actually going to be coming in the real patch by the way? But you have some good ideas, hope to see some good results soon

[bootleg soldier 2]

Agree with your post 100% larry, we all (well some of us)  know the dangers and decisions that have to be made in active service in a warzone (especially in todays world).

As much as i love ArmA i know that war is not fought in this way and in todays Armies around the world (again some of them!!!!) it seems as much effort goes into publicity and Rules of engagement etc than is good for the guys on the ground.

This can make war an even more hellish experience than just plain fighting (something we are trained for repeatedly and luckily for us trained well) as soldiers are being thrust more and more into situations they are untrained for or individualy just plain incapable of dealing with.

No game can call itself REALISTIC unless these things are factored in, apparently in ArmA you are just a cog in a larger war machine, well i must be one hell of a cog and my chest should be brimming with a few more medals as every time i go to battle i end up taking down a Brigade single handededly while everyone stands around and admires

Obviously it's a tough one for BIS as if they made the game like this sales would not be too good and many younger trigger fingers would like to play something with more action.

Definately one for mission makers and modders

Bootleg

[Aurvan 0]

I just thought of the SWAT series, and most recently SWAT 4 + The Stetchkov Syndicate. There you have clear rules of engagement that you need to follow (shout "Police! Drop your weapons!") before killing anyone, not injure civilians etc.) if you want to succeed. You need a certain score to advance, and that score is pretty high on higher difficulty settings.

In SWAT 4 there are a lot of civilians. Some are shot by terrorists if you don't save them, some cooperate immediately, some cooperate but complain when you cuff them (it's procedure to cuff everyone) with comments like "Hey! We're not the terrorists!". Others simply refuse to cooperate, and run away, simply refuse to turn their backs and kneel, or even start to fight back if you push them. You have to beat them into submission somehow, and at the same time worry about terrorists. There are a lot of people that hate the police without being terrorists, and this makes the missions more dynamic since civilians doesn't all behave the same. And there are women in the game (but not children, except one mission where a mad cult had killed and buried all their children in the basement, but you only saw graves), and I especially remember a mission where I had to slap an old woman around and spray her with tear gas to get her to cooperate so we could advance and eliminate her son, which had kidnapped some people.

The terrorists are also similarly different in behaviour. Some throw down their weapons and kneel down as soon as the police arrives. Others need some shouting to comply, while others need to taste some less than lethal weapons to comply. Others need a bullet in the leg, while some never surrender and you have to kill them before they reach a hostage or kill you.

I'm sure it's possible to implement some of this to a war game like ArmA, obviously with some modification since you only have lethal weapons in war, and you don't have the same ROE.

[icebreakr 3159]

I also remember a moment in a mission "Swift Cats: Red Trucks" where our team got to the bar in Tiberia and there were like 6-8 guys standing... and suddenly one guy pulled a gun (its not visible under a shirt) and started shooting at a squad... 15 seconds later all civilians were dead and only two had pistols on them :]

As you can see mission makers can already make some interesting situations. We use rebels dressed up as civilians for many missions... and of course we all a lot of traffic/UPS scripts to make it more interesting.

[dirtylarrygb 0]

honor points does discourage stupidity but it also encourage ppl to do other things which is worst then simple stupidity, so everything have its dark side, make sure how they work is another topic

If they are hacking their accounts to bypass playing for 4 weeks to get their 18c, it doesn't affect me at all. So long as they aren't killing me for no reason, I don't care.

It's the reason the "Sin bin" jail is thrown in. Player who log into a Morealism mission and try and kill civilians, end up in Jail for 5 mins a kill say after 3 civvies killed they just can't spawn again till end of mission.