Helicopters in AA

[Whip 0]

Yes, you can use freelook to look around the cockpit.

BlackAlpha you seem to have mastered choppers in Arma. Could you tell me how can you effectively strafe a long convoy with a chopper? Just put a hundred or so enemy infantry in a relatively staight city street and try to effectively strafe them without constantly wiggling left and right or crashing to building. In OFP this wasn't quite so hard. Also I could fly low along the roads in fair speeds in OFP, but in Arma it seems impossible. IMHO the chopper flight model is screwed. Feels like you were flying a gargo plane not an agile chopper.

[versus 0]

i agree that at least the chopper FMs in arma seem more realistic than the ones in OPFP. you just couldn't make any real mistakes while flying choppers. no matter how hard you yanked the controlls around...crashing was almost impossible.

well i do use flightsimulator a lot, however not to fly helicopters most of the time. i tried helicopters a couple of times but couldn't even get them to take off without crashing...so 100% realistic choppers and chopper flightmodels are really a science in themselves i think. maybe it would be a little too much to ask of a casual gamer to handle...

[Fork122 0]

maybe it would be a little too much to ask of a casual gamer to handle...

From the beginning of time, OFP players were never "Casual Gamers"

[Correction 0]

I haven't tried ArmA yet, but I've flown a large gas-powered RC chopper. I can tell you, it's not half as easy as even the news-copter pilots make it look. Just getting the thing to hover at a dead stop is one of the most difficult maneuvers.

I guess my point is, it's not supposed to be easy if you want it to be realistic. Like I said, I haven't tried the game yet, so take this post with a grain of salt, but personally I want it to be realistic and difficult. Good pilots online should be a commodety!

[Speedy15 0]

Are you able to perform vertical 180's and make the helo spin a 360 while flying forward in an apache or blackhawk? Real copters can do this. Thats one thing I hate about BF2, as soon as you lean over too far thats it, your toast. It feels like your flying a 150ton rock, not an agile attack copter.

[Mobious 0]

I am also in the US so I cant really make a good judgement on the flight model of helicopters.

I do hope that they are challenging to fly..BlackAlpha made some good points on the flight model and he is right in some aspects. So I hope BIS doesnt noob down the flight model on the helis... Make it something that you have to work at to be good at.

[Fresh- 6]

BlackAlpha, thanks for your post. I've been keeping an eye for helicopter related discussions as these are my favorite aspect of OFP.

The discussion of the flight model being screwed has especially caught my attention.

I agree with Dslyecxi, since you haven't actually flown a real helicopter, it would difficult to know how it 'should' feel.

That being said, the flight model in ARMA sounds like it's been tweaked to a more 'realistic' flight model and your impressions are riveting.

I really hope they resemble the flight model of Microsoft Flight Simulator when properly adjusted. (see below)

If you're into flying helos, don't miss this, visit http://www.hovercontrol.com/  

For the MSflight sim crowd, they have very good addons.

But to fly right,  you need to adjust the settings:(from another forum)

"My answer is long but this stuff needs to be said. Hopefully others will benefit.

Here's what I am currently using.

General 85%

PFactor 85%

Torque 80%

Gyro effect 100%

Crash tolorance 100%

Auto coord un-check

Gyro Drift un-check

use indicated airspeed.

All controls set to 100% sensitive

rudder(anti-torque) 80% null

Keep in mind that adjustments to realism do not necessarily equate to realism. In other words just because a fellow has his set to full 100% doesn't mean the flying characteristics are more real then someone flying at 75%.

MS gives us these sliders and many others simply because no two computers and control systems will react the same. In addition, a newer pilot can back them off much like an arcade game and have somewhat instant success. However, in the case of the helicopter, too much is as bad as too little. Naturally since I fly real world, I had my sliders full 100%. No matter what I did the JetRanger was uncontrollable. This is rediculous. The real JetRanger is one of the easiest helicopters to fly. That (and cost) is why there are so many, and the Armed services use them as trainers.

With 100% realism on PFactor, and Torque, in a hover slight lateral cyclic input would cause immediate and rapid dynamic roll-over. Sorry, but that doesn't happen in real life. Not with less than 1/8 inch cyclic displacement. I tried everything to fix this. I even flew the real thing at work to see how much cyclic I would need to start a roll that much at a hover, and it took close to 3 inches of movement! . Granted, the stick in most real-world helos is a lot longer, but the hand input on the control grip end should approximate the amount used in real flight. I used the realism, sensitivity, and null sliders in combination to replicate the real control feel. Once I finally did that, you could HEAR me grinnin' for miles. I could now finally do almost anything with the FS helos. Including autorotations to the ground the second day.

Is it cheating? One might ask. Fact is, I don't need to cheat. I want to fly a helicopter in FS as close to realistically as I can. It took those adjustments to do so.

I did learn that realism between about 75-80% replicates a helo equipped with Auto Flight Control System (AFCS, not to be confused with autopilot) or anti-torque Stability Augmentation System (SAS). Larger aircraft with twin engines are usually equipped as such, so set realism accordingly. A Black Hawk for instance can be hovered almost hands off with some small nudging on the controls. Your FS Black Hawk, AS365, or any of the VUSCG aircraft should be set up to replicate this. The MD NOTAR series is SAS equipped for the tail.  I did a wing over in the real thing to demontrate handling, using a vertical nose up-line using cyclic only and never had to input pedal pressure. At a hover the NOTAR will pick up to 3 feet with only 2-3 degree yaw divergence (no wind). 'course all depends on rate of collective cyclic etc. By the way, NOTAR tail-rotors in FS should be set to lower sensitivity because they don't respond as fast in yaw as an aircraft equipped with a tail rotor.

Sorry this went so long. I hope I can give folks hope that flying helos in FS is very do-able when set up is correct. No one needs the computer, controls and software to hinder progress. I am convinced if it hindered my progress, it will surely hinder others.:;):"

Cheers!!

[Balschoiw 0]

@BlackAlpha:

Try what you tell us with the Kamov, using target-cam. I give you 5 seconds unless you spiral into ground.

[Journeyman 0]

I’ve made another video showing the Presidential Seaking helicopter making hard manoeuvres in FSX! I wanted to see if I could get the President to eject his breakfast before his next engagement!  ...Well actually it is just really to show how FSX flight dynamics handles heavy choppers and the Seaking being somewhat similar in size and weight to the MI-17 so would be very similar in flight too.  

This Seaking is another highly detailed model from First Class Simulations!  The important thing though is its mass and weight distribution and how it responds to control inputs, in this case large control inputs! If ArmA modelled flying big choppers like this it would be a dream!

FSX Seaking Manoeuvres  .. (Right click and Save target as)

[BlackAlpha 10]

Well the kamov is bugged, in a way. It's impossible to look trough the missle and at the same time trying to keep the chopper steady. It's only possible when using hoover mode. The missle cam should be a smaller window ontop of the normal view or they just need to get rid of the missle cam. It's impossible to move and fire the anti tank missle at the same time. This is why I think the chopper is "crippled" and bugged.

[feersum.endjinn 6]

I don't think messing around with center of gravity and mass settings will help, try flying seagull after dying in no-respawn MP game and it has all the same issues as helicopters in game.

[xnodunitx 0]

I’ve made another video showing the Presidential Seaking helicopter making hard manoeuvres in FSX! I wanted to see if I could get the President to eject his breakfast before his next engagement! ...Well actually it is just really to show how FSX flight dynamics handles heavy choppers and the Seaking being somewhat similar in size and weight to the MI-17 so would be very similar in flight too.

This Seaking is another highly detailed model from First Class Simulations! The important thing though is its mass and weight distribution and how it responds to control inputs, in this case large control inputs! If ArmA modelled flying big choppers like this it would be a dream!

FSX Seaking Manoeuvres .. (Right click and Save target as)

I hope its higher detail and accurate than the apache was..I can't watch right now as I'm not on my home PC but I'll take a look when I get back.

To make things quicker,wouldn't the seagull have the same mass distribution?

[BlackAlpha 10]

Well I don't know how choppers would handle in real life. I don't know if this new flight model for choppers is more realistic. But what I do know is that you can easily play the game with the current flight model.

I made a video showing how I use the choppers in this game. It's 6 minutes long and about 80 megs. It's 90% pure gameplay footage. That means (almost) no editing so this might be boring for some people.

http://www.uploading.com/files/1RU0YJWL/ChopperShow.rar.html

By the way, I got a pretty old PC so don't mind the crappy graphics.

I don't get any problems when flying. Maybe it's because I don't fly in a certain way that makes the chopper buggy. If that's the case, please tell me so I can see for myself why the flight model is so screwed up.

I haven't tried using a joystick yet so that's what I'm going to do right now... After clicking "Add Reply"...

[Journeyman 0]

I hope its higher detail and accurate than the apache was..I can't watch right now as I'm not on my home PC but I'll take a look when I get back.

The purpose of the videos is not to show how well FSX or any third party product depicts any of the choppers in terms of visual accuracy, but instead to show how FSX handles the flight dynamics of the different choppers. I agree that the 'visual' accuracy of the Apache and probably the presidential Seeking is hardly worth shouting about, but remember that FSX is above all else a 'flight simulator' where the most important aspect of the sim is in flight handling and aerodynamic behaviour!

So please no more "OMG look at the crappy detail on that model!" ArmA will knock the socks off of most sims with regards to aircraft detail and accuracy for sure, but from what I've heard and seen so far it is way behind on the actual 'flight' model and realistic handling and behaviour!  

[xnodunitx 0]

Oh its far from the worst I'v seen,I understand that the game is mostly depicted and centered around flight simulation,its just a bit of humorous irony you might say. I'v got no real beef with the flight sim games,I'v heard many great things about it. And I understand what the point of the video was for and I thank you for that,but now that I see it its almost as if flashpoint had more in common with it than what I see in armed assault,with all the helicopter banking and whatnot. Still can't say for sure..I'd have to see both videos of the seaking and what Black Alpha posted,helicopter physics are one of the things I care alot about,unfortunatly I know that Armed Assault is not centered to that,maybe in game2 it will have more options and helicopter will be more interactable.

[bangtail 0]

Well I don't know how choppers would handle in real life. I don't know if this new flight model for choppers is more realistic. But what I do know is that you can easily play the game with the current flight model.

I made a video showing how I use the choppers in this game. It's 6 minutes long and about 80 megs. It's 90% pure gameplay footage. That means (almost) no editing so this might be boring for some people.

http://www.uploading.com/files/1RU0YJWL/ChopperShow.rar.html

By the way, I got a pretty old PC so don't mind the crappy graphics.

I don't get any problems when flying. Maybe it's because I don't fly in a certain way that makes the chopper buggy. If that's the case, please tell me so I can see for myself why the flight model is so screwed up.

I haven't tried using a joystick yet so that's what I'm going to do right now... After clicking "Add Reply"...

I watched your movie! It shouldn't take 5 minutes to engage 4 armoured targets. You've just illustrated why Helos are so bad in ArmA. In OFP I could engage 8 or more targets in less that 30 seconds with the Apache. And that's about right. The Hellfire can be fired off at presets simultaneously (Which you could emulate quite well with the <tab> key).

You can't "popup" as is the usual method of engagement for helos because the flight model is so awful combined with the buggy targeting.

Truth be known, an AH-1Z would never overfly a Shilka, thats almost certain death provided the gunner isn't Stevie Wonder. Im not dissing you in anyway because given the current Helo situation, I probably couldn't have done it much better.

My point is that in OFP you could employ proper attack helo tactics and now you cant. Well at least I can't and most people seem to agree. I have tried that "Alligator" mission about 20 x now and it is nearly impossible to hold the Helo steady. The gun camera in the Kamov is ENTIRELY useless as it cannot be slewed independantly of the helos main controls.

Im not suggesting we try to incorporate a flight sim here. I just would have preferred it if it had been left alone. As the old addage says, "If it aint broke, dont fix it".

E

[BlackAlpha 10]

My biggest problem is getting a lock on something. In my video you can see that I'm trying to get a lock on stuff when I move my mouse. I know something is there, but nothing pops up so I can't get a lock. That's where I lose most of my time because I have to make a pass without engaging. I could've fired way more missles with each pass if I could've gotten an instant lock on the next target after I had fired a missle.

I'll try the tab thing. And by the way, using a joystick in this game isn't that good. The mouse can do almost the same but it's more accurate.

[max power 21]

I watched your movie! It shouldn't take 5 minutes to engage 4 armoured targets. You've just illustrated why Helos are so bad in ArmA. In OFP I could engage 8 or more targets in less that 30 seconds with the Apache. And that's about right. The Hellfire can be fired off at presets simultaneously (Which you could emulate quite well with the <tab> key).

You can't "popup" as is the usual method of engagement for helos because the flight model is so awful combined with the buggy targeting.

That multiple target engagement thing is a feature of the longbow radar.

I don't see why you can't pop up attack. Is the helicopter unable to move up and down? Here's a trick you might try. Find enemies. When you find them, memorize the position of the ground to air threats. Quickly find a place to mask, preferably a ridge. Pop up, seek and aquire an airthreat target (you already know where they are), remask. Move laterally. Pop up, fire, remask. Move laterally. Pop up, aquire target, remask, etc. This should minimize your exposure time until you get the hang of target acquisition.

[bangtail 0]

I watched your movie! It shouldn't take 5 minutes to engage 4 armoured targets. You've just illustrated why Helos are so bad in ArmA. In OFP I could engage 8 or more targets in less that 30 seconds with the Apache. And that's about right. The Hellfire can be fired off at presets simultaneously (Which you could emulate quite well with the <tab> key).

You can't "popup" as is the usual method of engagement for helos because the flight model is so awful combined with the buggy targeting.

That multiple target engagement thing is a feature of the longbow radar.

I don't see why you can't pop up attack.  Is the helicopter unable to move up and down?  Here's a trick you might try.  Find enemies.  When you find them, memorize the position of the ground to air threats.  Quickly find a place to mask, preferably a ridge.  Pop up, seek and aquire an airthreat target (you already know where they are), remask.  Move laterally.  Pop up, fire, remask. Move laterally.  Pop up, aquire target, remask, etc.  This should minimize your exposure time until you get the hang of target acquisition.

@ Plaintiff1 - AH-64A can be fed targets remotely among other things. The Longbow can do it autonomously, thats the only difference. (Real world of course, not in game)

I've tried PU/RM methods and they just don't work, either the targeting won't kick in or the Helo becomes unstable, even in autohover it has a tendancy to drift. And using X and C to turn on the spot at low altitude is dangerous now.

@ BlackAlpha - Yep, the targeting is weird, there is no getting around it. It doesn't seem to work half the time.

Regards

E

[Heatseeker 0]

My biggest problem is getting a lock on something. In my video you can see that I'm trying to get a lock on stuff when I move my mouse. I know something is there, but nothing pops up so I can't get a lock. That's where I lose most of my time because I have to make a pass without engaging. I could've fired way more missles with each pass if I could've gotten an instant lock on the next target after I had fired a missle.

I'll try the tab thing. And by the way, using a joystick in this game isn't that good. The mouse can do almost the same but it's more accurate.

I've read before that instead of just placing the free cursor on top of a target you actually have to aim to get a target lock, im not positive about it but it was too easy to lock in OPF. Now armour stands a better chance on the battlefield .

[Blanco 0]

Actually, I never used the cursor to lock a target in OFP, once the targets show up on the radar,I hit the TAB key to lock & cycle through the targets, simple as that.

When you lose sight with your target it will be unlocked again.

Have you tried that already in ArmA?

[Scrub 0]

My biggest problem is getting a lock on something. In my video you can see that I'm trying to get a lock on stuff when I move my mouse. I know something is there, but nothing pops up so I can't get a lock. That's where I lose most of my time because I have to make a pass without engaging. I could've fired way more missles with each pass if I could've gotten an instant lock on the next target after I had fired a missle.

I'll try the tab thing. And by the way, using a joystick in this game isn't that good. The mouse can do almost the same but it's more accurate.

I've read before that instead of just placing the free cursor on top of a target you actually have to aim to get a target lock, im not positive about it but it was too easy to lock in OPF. Now armour stands a better chance on the battlefield   .

Am I understanding right, that you now have to slew and point the PIP that is in the center of the screen onto a target to lock on? If so, in this FM, that means moving around in an unknown manner while tipping your bird to point. Ouch. That is a nasty pill to swallow. I need to try this out without crashing

I really need more practice.

[bangtail 0]

My biggest problem is getting a lock on something. In my video you can see that I'm trying to get a lock on stuff when I move my mouse. I know something is there, but nothing pops up so I can't get a lock. That's where I lose most of my time because I have to make a pass without engaging. I could've fired way more missles with each pass if I could've gotten an instant lock on the next target after I had fired a missle.

I'll try the tab thing. And by the way, using a joystick in this game isn't that good. The mouse can do almost the same but it's more accurate.

I've read before that instead of just placing the free cursor on top of a target you actually have to aim to get a target lock, im not positive about it but it was too easy to lock in OPF. Now armour stands a better chance on the battlefield   .

Well thats fair enough I suppose except that in reality these helos have "point and click" weapons systems and for example, in ArmA, the TADS in the AH-1 cannot be manipulated without moving the whole chopper which is plain stupid. The whole point of these things is that they can hide and engage from a hidden position. Doesn't really make sense to load a chopper with missiles that can be fired from kilometers away when you can't target effectively unless you can see the target. BVR kills are not possible anymore.

TBH, the helos just aren't fun. It's not a learning curve either, its just a bad flight model with bad targetting. Thats my opinion. If it doesn't change, I'll just steer clear of choppers until the mod community releases some that have better design characteristics.

E

[xnodunitx 0]

AH-1Z uses TSS,AH-64's use TADS,big difference between the two.

No doubt people with track IR will probably have an easier time,but as Blanco said,isn't it possible to just use the TAB key if its too difficult,or if your co-pilot is an AI,why not just hide behind something,cycle through commands and tell them to file one of the AGM-114's like in OFP? Then a few seconds before your character says "fire",pop up,let the gunner fire and then move back down.

And it would make sense that the TSS is unable to move without moving the entire helicopter given that you are the pilot,I think that is gunner only,its not like the TADS/PNVS setup on the AH-64's.

[BlackAlpha 10]

I just did a test with 5 Shilkas sitting at different location and me hiding behind a ridge. The problem is that if you can't see the target, it won't show up on the radar. So if you hide behind a hill, you won't be able to see the enemy. The enemy will show up if you target them manually (they need to be within a specific range also) or when they fire at you. So just going trough tab isn't going to work, unless they've spotted you first and they fire at you first or when you spot them manually or when you've come to such a close distance that they show up on the radar automatically.

Personally I have no problems with the flight model. It's hard and sometimes tricky but that's what makes it fun.

I never knew you could use tab to go trough targets. I've played with choppers in OFP for ages but I never knew that! This makes it much easier in certain situations.

But like I said before. Sometimes you got to manually target a vehicle, for it to show up on the radar, if it's really far away. To answer Scrub's question, No, you don't have to aim by moving the whole chopper. You can press space and then you can move the mouse around the screen. In the Russian Chopper, however, you got to aim with the dot in the middle and by moving the whole chopper which makes it a piece of crap.

Also another thing I noticed is that you shouldn't use X and C to rotate unless you are going VERY slowly. Less then 50 (KM/h or miles?).