Helicopters in AA

[Gimpster 0]

I still think is primarily a control issue and percision issue. Cyclic looks to be limited to 5 degree steps and that will not allow for the fine adjustments needed to aim and hover well. The tail rotor also has a few issues but aside from them the underlying physics seem good. The control inputs just do not seem to be translated to the physics engine in small enough steps or the engine is not accepting small enough steps from the contol systems.

[Dudester 0]

I just hope they do fix it because i won't be sticking about on it for long if they don't. Worst control i have seen for a chopper in any game i have played. I was dreading this happening. Why make them so crap, don't please anyone come back with there's a learning curve to them, because thats like saying you play good Tennis with a square ball. Fix Fix Its horrible.  

[Victor_S. 0]

After playing arma for a few hours now I love it. That being said it does feel unfinished. The flight models are good and bad. On the one hand I love the flight model when flying the camels. It feels very realistic, I don't really know how to explain it. The harrier and the choppers are a different story. I have found it very hard to turn the choppers (please tell me if there is a good way). It feels like I have to fight and trick the chopper into turning unless I want to make gigantic sweeping turns. There is very little percision when in comes to flying and I have trouble hitting anything with the mg. It feels like all of the vehicles have auto center. The choppers need alot of work. The harrier just feels weird to fly. It is very sensitive to roll and is sluggish at turning. I don't know if this is realistic or not, but it does not feel right. I know this is kind of jumbled and incoherent, but I am going to get back to playing.

[frederf 0]

The helicopters are a right pain to fly. I think the flight model isn't too bad except:

1. Why doesn't going 100kmph forward increase my lift? It does in a real helo. In game I actually generate less lift going fast-ish than very slow at the same power setting and the same forward pitch Same with flaring to a hover stop, you lose all your lift when in reality the increased AoA should help bouy you up. At speed helos should fly a lot like fixed wing aircraft.

2. The game mostly ignores ground effect, one of the biggest factors in low alt helo flying.

3. Rotor thrust may be too lagged. Yes a turbine engine is slow to respond but that factor isn't related to thrust. I'm not changing RPM I'm changing collective (rotor AoA) so changes in thrust should be very responsive.

4. The helos "stick" to the ground. Smoothly advance the throttle in a real helo and the skids will smoothly "go weightless" and drift upward. In ArmA they stick to the ground well above the power setting for hovering 1 cm off the ground and then all of a sudden.... WHOOOSH, you're 40 m up in the air. You then have to reduce the throttle to hover closer to the ground. A power setting that you were still stuck to the ground with a minute ago.

Anyway the flight model isn't that horrid. BUT OH MY GOODNESS THE CONTROLS. I hooked up a Saitek Cyborg to the game and it's insane to fly. It feels very "fly by wire" NOT SMOOTH at all. The pitch changes in big "chunks." You can fly forward at 10 kmph and at 0 kmph but not inbetween! The smallest sneeze on the joystick sends you this way and that. Very very nervous controls.

The AH-1Z was the worst, the rest are far more useable. I do like they tried to make it more complex or high-fidelity but (comparing to FS2004, FSX, other helo sims) they've missed the mark.

LOL Tennis with a square ball is EXACTLY what it feels like.

[aus_twisted 0]

Anyway the flight model isn't that horrid. BUT OH MY GOODNESS THE CONTROLS. I hooked up a Saitek Cyborg to the game and it's insane to fly. It feels very "fly by wire" NOT SMOOTH at all. The pitch changes in big "chunks." You can fly forward at 10 kmph and at 0 kmph but not inbetween! The smallest sneeze on the joystick sends you this way and that. Very very nervous controls.

The AH-1Z was the worst, the rest are far more useable. I do like they tried to make it more complex or high-fidelity but (comparing to FS2004, FSX, other helo sims) they've missed the mark.

LOL Tennis with a square ball is EXACTLY what it feels like.

Yep I agree 100%, a lot of people keep saying "oh but it needs practice and training" that makes me laugh and angry at the same time, because no matter how much practice you have the rediculas controls of them wont change (have you people ever played a good flight or car racing sim? obviously not).

The pitch is the worst thing for me using several joysticks which I've had years and years of experience with and the mouse is no better either, destroy the convoy missions with the AH-1 is a nightmare (especially when you want to use the FFAR rockets lol) the lockable missiles dont help either when they constantly fly over the top of there targets.

A game or sim can have the most realistic physics in the world, but having poor controls will make those physics feel very bad.

[Czechm8 0]

The helicopters are a right pain to fly. I think the flight model isn't too bad except:

1. Why doesn't going 100kmph forward increase my lift? It does in a real helo. In game I actually generate less lift going fast-ish than very slow at the same power setting and the same forward pitch Same with flaring to a hover stop, you lose all your lift when in reality the increased AoA should help bouy you up. At speed helos should fly a lot like fixed wing aircraft.

2. The game mostly ignores ground effect, one of the biggest factors in low alt helo flying.

3. Rotor thrust may be too lagged. Yes a turbine engine is slow to respond but that factor isn't related to thrust. I'm not changing RPM I'm changing collective (rotor AoA) so changes in thrust should be very responsive.

4. The helos "stick" to the ground. Smoothly advance the throttle in a real helo and the skids will smoothly "go weightless" and drift upward. In ArmA they stick to the ground well above the power setting for hovering 1 cm off the ground and then all of a sudden.... WHOOOSH, you're 40 m up in the air. You then have to reduce the throttle to hover closer to the ground. A power setting that you were still stuck to the ground with a minute ago.

Anyway the flight model isn't that horrid. BUT OH MY GOODNESS THE CONTROLS. I hooked up a Saitek Cyborg to the game and it's insane to fly. It feels very "fly by wire" NOT SMOOTH at all. The pitch changes in big "chunks." You can fly forward at 10 kmph and at 0 kmph but not inbetween! The smallest sneeze on the joystick sends you this way and that. Very very nervous controls.

The AH-1Z was the worst, the rest are far more useable. I do like they tried to make it more complex or high-fidelity but (comparing to FS2004, FSX, other helo sims) they've missed the mark.

LOL Tennis with a square ball is EXACTLY what it feels like.

someone who sounds like he knows what he is talking about. As does Gimpster.

so nice to hear educated opinion as opposed to hyped up childish ranting that some other people are spewing out. i am new here but it seems many new people come from the BF2 forums which was full of negatives and arseholes who tried to feel important by bitching about the game in thread after thread all about the same thing. guess (like me) they've found a new place to troll and to have their say.

oops. back on topic. Would these changes be moddable? or are they hardcoded? i want that BIS sees these problem and fixes them.

[Dudester 0]

Apart from the horrible controls i have come across what i see as bugs in the chopper and harrier. I use a Logitech Extreme3DPRO and the flying games i have played usually allow me to use the twist grip left and right to act like some type of rudder control. So as to keep any chopper and plane at level flight when turning.

This is not the case in this game. The turn left or right acts like the bank left, right. So instead of it turning at level flight when i twist my joystick (Stick z- Rotate) it does the same as if i had pushed my joystick left or right wich i had set as the bank (Stick x-Axis). This is the same in the chopper as it is the Harrier.

Next is the thrust for the chopper wich i set on my joystick. Talk about takeoff, i'm not sure the starship enterprise has that speed in warp drive, its just like getting shot out of a cannon.

Back to the Harrier, apart from it having the same problems as the chopper. I have found that when i bank either left or right and pull back on the stick to get extra turn, it just flips upside down. So must be a problem again with the Axis. Hope Bis can fix this.

Now i have given in flying till BIS fixes it.

[Gimpster 0]

Yep that is a weird bug, and the only real bug I think that is in there. Rudder/tailrotor should never induce Roll only Yaw, at higher speeds it should alow the deflection of the tail even if it cannot alter the direction of flight.

Ever land a fixed wing aricraft in a strong cross wind?

[Journeyman 0]

Apart from the horrible controls i have come across what i see as bugs in the chopper and harrier. I use a Logitech Extreme3DPRO and the flying games i have played usually allow me to use the twist grip left and right to act like some type of rudder control. So as to keep any chopper and plane at level flight when turning.

This is not the case in this game. The turn left or right acts like the bank left, right. So instead of it turning at level flight when i twist my joystick (Stick z- Rotate) it does the same as if i had pushed my joystick left or right wich i had set as the bank (Stick x-Axis Rotate). This is the same in the chopper as it is the Harrier.

On a normal twist joystick the twist action is usually assigned to the rudder function by default (normally done by pedals IRL). Are you telling me that BIS has NOT assigned the joystick twist function to rudder? .... LMAO! .... What's going on here?

I hope their excuse is that they just ran out of time and all these vehicle control and response issues will shortly be addressed in a suitably timed update!  

I say leave the demo to one side if necessary as fixing these issues is much more of a priority IMO and I don't want to waist my precious time with a halved baked demo either! .... I can wait!

[Dudester 0]

Yes thats what i am saying the only time the twist seems to work as a rudder is when the chopper is put in auto hover and slows right down to a near stop. I want it to kick in alot sooner then before it comes to a near stop. The rest of the time it just acts like bank left or right.

[Journeyman 0]

Yes thats what i am saying the only time the twist seems to work as a rudder is when the chopper is put in auto hover and slows right down to a near stop. I want it to kick in alot sooner then before it comes to a near stop. The rest of the time it just acts like bank left or right.

If you check out my latest FSX video: FSX Apache Ground Level Flying  .. (Right click and Save target as)

you can see me making a lot of use of rudder as this sort of 'nap of the earth' flying requires minimal banking or else you'll plough your rotors into the dirt!

It seems to me then that it would have been virtually impossible for me to have made this same flight in ArmA as it stands at present!    

[Gimpster 0]

Well I just learned somthing about the throttle I had hoped I was wrong about. It works the same for Fixed Wing, Heli, Trucks, Tanks and Boats. From center to top is acceleration and form center to botom is deceleration/reverse. So in a plane or heli, you do not start increasing the accual trottle until 50% forward on the throttle input. Its not 0%-100% like it should be, its only 50%-100% for positive throttle input. Add it to the list of reasons why each type of vehicle needs its own control interface. Shared controls just do not work with such differing types of vehicles.

On a bright note the Harrier can be landed on the tarmak runway and will stop short of roling off the end if you land at 250kph or below. Much faster and you may not make the final taxiway. The Camel is easy to put down almost anywhere.

[Dudester 0]

Yes thats what i am saying the only time the twist seems to work as a rudder is when the chopper is put in auto hover and slows right down to a near stop. I want it to kick in alot sooner then before it comes to a near stop. The rest of the time it just acts like bank left or right.

If you check out my latest FSX video: FSX Apache Ground Level Flying  .. (Right click and Save target as)

you can see me making a lot of use of rudder as this sort of 'nap of the earth' flying requires minimal banking or else you'll plough your rotors into the dirt!

It seems to me then that it would have been virtually impossible for me to have made this same flight in ArmA as it stands at present!  

Well its like this the only time i seem to be able to use rudder control is when im in auto hover, in this mode i can get upto a speed of around 50. As soon i switch of auto hover the twist on my joystick seems to lose all rudder and starts to act like bank left or right. But switching of auto hover is like a nightmare in itself because trying to get this chopper to hover without it is a joke.

I would like to see rudder control without having to go on auto hover and at greater speeds.

[frederf 0]

Gimpster I coulda sworn I was at 30-40% throttle and hovering at 20m. I don't think 0-50% power is "how negative" the thrust is, but I'll have to double check. One thing I found hilarious is that increase thrust command in the game decrease thrust on helos (assume it's correct on harriers JUST LIKE OFP wheeee).

On thing I've noticed is complaints about the tailrotor controls between hovering and at speed. First off check the controls section of the game. There is a "turn left" "turn right" command but there is also "left pedal" and "right pedal."

The game is set up the n00b all-commands-in-one way by default. If you want joystick twist to only do the tail rotor (more like the real aircraft), delete the command bindings that are there for that axis and change them to "left pedal" and "right pedal" and it then responds (more) properly. No roll at speed while twisting joystick after this change of controls.

You don't get much rudder authority at speed though, but it won't command any roll from the helo. At higher speed the helo no longer pivots (yaws) around via the left/right rudder command but instead only temporarily slews left and right and then weathervanes back to be aligned with the airstream over the fuselage once at speed. At 150kmph+ you can barely notice the tailrotor wiggling the nose left and right because the weathervane tendency is so high.

As far as I know none of the in game choppers have an honest-to-goodness rudder in real life, so loosing yaw authority at high speeds is correct(ish).

And about the sticking-to-the-earth physics. I figure that's just a gamemakers crutch to make sure things don't slide around as much as they would without it. Plus it saves on CPU resources to not have tiny little slides and everything's normal force always being calculated, but only consider vehicles airborne after a certain lift threshold.

If the flight controls are "fixable" or not depends on if the game is hardwired to do:

control input ---> vehicle movement

or if it's the (proper)

control input ---> thrust vectors change ---> object accelerates like a free body to the net forces (thus vehicle movement).

PS. About the horrid locking ability and AI gunner... it seems to only affect the tutorial mission. In regular game I have yet to see such weird behavior (lock ups, 3 min cued commands, ect).

[Erich von Stahlhelm 0]

helicopter control is much to hyperactive and unrealistic.

it uses only 10% oft the joystick amplitude, so it makes control to a puzzle and not a fun. control is oversensible und hyperactive.

best helicopter control i see ever in a game, was in the "desert combat" modification for "bf1942". it was really challenging, but a great fun and much more realsistic than what we have in ArmA.

please fix it, BIS

[colligpip 0]

Hello yes i agree the flight model in Desert Combat was a really good mix of arcade and realism TAKE NOTE BIS.

Can anybody point me in the right direction to tweak the flight model myself is this possible?

[Dudester 0]

Hello yes i agree the flight model in Desert Combat was a really good mix of arcade and realism TAKE NOTE BIS.

Can anybody point me in the right direction to tweak the flight model myself is this possible?

Tweak all you like but the chopper will still bounce about. Its about as stable as a one legged man in an arse kick competition. why didn't they just keep the tried and trusted OFP control.

[Guest RKSL-Rock]

Hello yes i agree the flight model in Desert Combat was a really good mix of arcade and realism TAKE NOTE BIS.

Can anybody point me in the right direction to tweak the flight model myself is this possible?

Assuming that ArmA defines handling the same way as OFP (and from what ive seen so far) you'll need to edit the geo lod on the model. Unfortunatley you can do this until BIS give us the moding tools.

[whisper 0]

Quote[/b] ]One thing I found hilarious is that increase thrust command in the game decrease thrust on helos (assume it's correct on harriers JUST LIKE OFP wheeee).

That makes sense if "increase thrust" is to increase Harrier speed, because the collective command on a chopper is inverted when compared to a jet thrust command : when you pull the command on the Harrier, it makes the engine using less power. When you pull the collective on a chopper, it makes the chopper go higher (more thrust).

[BlackAlpha 10]

I made a video of me sneaking up and attacking a convoy with a Cobra, using only rockets.

http://www.uploading.com/files/GOXC5J2I/ConvoyRun.wmv.html

Red Kite, you can easily change the controls and assign the rudder to the twist.

[phunkmaz 3]

Quote[/b] ]Hello yes i agree the flight model in Desert Combat was a really good mix of arcade and realism TAKE NOTE BIS.

I made a short flight video of Desert Combat several years ago. Here's the link:

BF1942_DC_Helo_Lesson_by_PhunkMaZ.avi (~15MB DivX AVI)

Flying helicopters in DC was a dream. You got the right heavy feel and precision. But i don't think BIS can make it even like in Desert Combat because they need to completely rewrite their physics-engine.

PhunkMaZ

(Pls excuse my english)

[OIK 0]

The helicopters in OFP were great, I personally do not want more than that.

If i wanted a helicopter simulation i would go for a different game.

[phunkmaz 3]

The helicopters in OFP were great, I personally do not want more than that.

If i wanted a helicopter simulation i would go for a different game.

That's your opinion but ArmA is not just a infantry-simulator. Alot of us are also interested in aviation and i think a military-simulation should cover all domains on the battlefield. Take a look at America's Army. It's mainly build for infantry but now they also have vehicles with alot of systems modeled.

[Dudester 0]

I made a video of me sneaking up and attacking a convoy with a Cobra, using only rockets.

http://www.uploading.com/files/GOXC5J2I/ConvoyRun.wmv.html

Red Kite, you can easily change the controls and assign the rudder to the twist.

Do you read before you post. Who said he cannot assign rudder to the twist. What i said is getting it to work was another thing. But since you have found away maybe you want to share it with everyone. I have clicked on your clip but don't want to sign up to that site, so can you put it on youtube or something else, or atleast explain what you have done to get rudder working as it should. I have already mentioned i can get it to work in auto hover but explained without auto hover how hard it is. LOL i also see your using one of the easier chopper models just noticed that at the end of this post.

[Journeyman 0]

@ BlackAlpha are you using a joystick?  Considering how twitchy the ArmA flight model is you seem to be controlling it quite well, maybe it just takes practice! I still don’t like the twitchy movements though, it should be much more fluid than that.

Can you make a video using the AH or Cobra and this time use the outside/chase view starting on the ground then increase collective (throttle) slowly until you are hovering about 20 feet up (do not use auto hover). Then make a hard left on the rudder until you are facing the other way 180 degrees. Then hard right on the rudder back again. Get back into a steady hover again about 20 feet up, then without moving the collective (throttle) bank left on the stick to make her roll to the left. I want to see what happens with ArmA’s flight model here. It should slip sideways and head for the ground. Bring it back up and do the same to the right. Steady it again and without adjusting the collective move the stick forwards, again it should tip the chopper forwards and make it move forwards and head for the dirt until you lift up on the collective (throttle). Pull back on the stick to bring it back into a steady hover and gently put it back down on the ground!

Watch my video below and just copy those moves! Don’t forget – NO auto hover! I want to see just how much control you have and also how the chopper responds to the various inputs explained above. If it is anything remotely realistic it should behave something like in my video!  I don’t think it will though!   …. Boy this will be fun!  .... Watch these moves in FSX below:

FSX Apache Hover Control & Response  .. (Right click and Save target as)

EDIT: @ Dudester someone posted above that you can adjust the control assignments in ArmA to configure 'twist' to rudder only I think!  

Also no need to sign up for anything to view BlackAlpha's videos, just find the DL link on the right!