Hurricane Katrina!

[WhoCares 0]

If you look for before/after images you can have a look here: NO before/after

Quote[/b] ]And to call a mobilization request for reserve military transports up to 3300km away, picking up doctors, supplies equipment from all across the country, and so on, is no 24 hour wonder.

I can't see how some try to justify the bad performance in setting up a basic infrastructure. There are plenty of examples from catastrophes all around the world and in far less developed regions/countries where international help was faster established (I linked to a good Red Cross day-by-day coverage of the Bam earthquake on page 7). It is not like all those international helpers sit in a plane and just wait to fly to the next catastrophe...

Nobody expects everything working perfect in 24h, but 6 days and more...

And we should not forget that it is not just New Orleans.

New Orleans gets obviously the biggest news coverage and I almost expect that also the biggest effort to establish some help is focused lon that city. I just hope that somebody also thinks about the people of the villages all around...

[ozanzac 0]

It's good to see that the aid and order is slowly trickling back to New Orleans, but the speed, and general lack of efficiency and organisation in which it came about was deplorable.

If the authorities knew it was gonna hit, and plans set up so that the Superdome would accomidate those that couldn't leave the city; why on earth weren't the necessary supplies needed to wait out the storm, rushed into position at the dome itself, before the storm hit?

At the very least, a sizable contingent of troops, should have been stationed at the dome to ensure at least some kind of law and order was maintained.

Whilist I applaud the evacuation order, there seemed to be very little in the way of a survival contingency plan for those who stayed at the dome.

The response time of the federal government, considering that this was an impending disaster with all the indicating signs, was absolutly shocking..... This wasn't like an earthquake that just popped up at a random time. This was a weather induced phenomenen, for which we DO have the ability to predict the outcomes.

As a result, the NG should have been at the ready to move out from barracks before it hit. To get the ball rolling with activations a few days after is far too late.

The response from the US government and it's emergency agencies, was not the type of response I would have come to expect from the worlds most powerful nation.....

Or maybe it was.....afterall, Bush was dealing out Oil Reserves before dealing with the disaster itself.

Whilist yes, it would ease the burden of the rest of the nation at the fuel pump......There are people are dying of dehydration in a western country during the 21st century FFS!

Kind of puts into perspective the misplaced priorities of TBA....God I hope the Republicans get kicked out next election.

They've f***** up one too many times now, and it's starting to cost some of your own citizens their very lives.

[Garcia 0]

Were is this green house effect comments comming from? Can someone please connect a Kyoto signing with whats hapening now?

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands. lets see how a huricane is Formed. I can get in deeper with the green house effect but I would go too far off-topic. So know this, I think the green house effect is irrelivent to life today because humans have learned to adapt through many many years.

Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you untill you drown yourself from self-pity. If you whant to discuse it then create another topic, but not here guys.

Disaster strikes when it can inflict the most possible damage. Has anyone noticed that yet or am I looking at a differant direction. In other words, it was impossible for all the possiblities to be layed out for decisions. You never know what will happen in the futre untill it just heppends.

Quote[/b] ]Oh remember bush saying the convention center was now secure and save? Well he was lying apparently as people on the ground, reporters and guardsmen, are of the COMPLETE opposite  opinion.

one of the main problems of refuge center down there is organization. people don't know what thier supposed to do.

You obviously don't get the point. Yes, natural disasters will always be a problem, but all research show that the greenhouse effect causes more natural disasters, and that it causes more extreme weather. Which means you will have more hurricanes and the hurricanes will be stronger than before (no, it doesn't mean that every hurricane is c-5, but more will be). If you have a very dry forest somewhere in Spain, it will be a very big chance for it to start to burn. If you add some live fire, that chance increases...

Quote[/b] ] bet they're those damn newbies from OFP multi-player that try shooting choppers as they take off because their asses werent fast enough to grab ammo and go before the pilot took off

Well, I bet they'll get a lot of help from a crashed chopper

[Pathy 0]

Quote[/b] ]Have you read the article I posted? looks like you didnt. Also try googling for "Wetlands draining" and bush's policies on that. Those would have lessened the punch of the hurricane. Anway, glad you agreed with the rest of my post :P

Actually, I read the articles. The levee system failed not because of maintenance but it was design only to withstand Cat. 3 hurricanes. The cost of building a levee system to withstand a Cat.4 hurranice outweighted the benefit of having one.

What value are you giving human life?

[Baz 0]

Were is this green house effect comments comming from? Can someone please connect a Kyoto signing with whats hapening now?

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands. lets see how a huricane is Formed. I can get in deeper with the green house effect but I would go too far off-topic. So know this, I think the green house effect is irrelivent to life today because humans have learned to adapt through many many years.

Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you untill you drown yourself from self-pity. If you whant to discuse it then create another topic, but not here guys.

Disaster strikes when it can inflict the most possible damage. Has anyone noticed that yet or am I looking at a differant direction. In other words, it was impossible for all the possiblities to be layed out for decisions. You never know what will happen in the futre untill it just heppends.

Quote[/b] ]Oh remember bush saying the convention center was now secure and save? Well he was lying apparently as people on the ground, reporters and guardsmen, are of the COMPLETE opposite opinion.

one of the main problems of refuge center down there is organization. people don't know what thier supposed to do.

You obviously don't get the point. Yes, natural disasters will always be a problem, but all research show that the greenhouse effect causes more natural disasters, and that it causes more extreme weather. Which means you will have more hurricanes and the hurricanes will be stronger than before (no, it doesn't mean that every hurricane is c-5, but more will be). If you have a very dry forest somewhere in Spain, it will be a very big chance for it to start to burn. If you add some live fire, that chance increases...

Quote[/b] ] bet they're those damn newbies from OFP multi-player that try shooting choppers as they take off because their asses werent fast enough to grab ammo and go before the pilot took off

Well, I bet they'll get a lot of help from a crashed chopper

To say such a thing as that is absolutly absurd and dispicable. Blaming the USA for its emissions of greenhouse gasses, saying that thats the reason why we have a number of hurricanes is completely absurd and poposterous. If I were you my friend, I would stop trying to exploit what has happened to the Gulf coast for political and ideological gain. Instead of saying that local and federal gov. is to blame becasue of untimely reatction to such an inimagineable even. You slash the USA policy of not signing some stupid treaty. Saying that becasue the USA does not beleive in Kyoto treaty, they brought this on themselves. I tell you one thing my friend, you better do a deep soul search right now inside you and see who has their priorities messed up. If anything, I would blame the geography of the area and the lack of preparation, but certainly not a treaty not being signed. Just take your treaty and walk down to New Orleans and tell the people there at the superdome and convention center about how the country had forsaken them all becasue they didn't sign the kyoto treay. Gee I wonder what kind of response you would receive from them... I have never heard anything so ingnorant and poposterous in my entire life. I suggest you look at the TV a little more so you can see for yourself if the Kyoto treaty would have made a damn difference in New Orleans. Do you think the storm would have been less powerful if the treaty was signed? Do you think if the treaty was signed the levees wouldn't break? I suggest you ask yourself those questions, and see for yourself if the treaty has anything to do with what has happened.

[mattxr 9]

Bush Bitch-slapped nature when he refused the Kyoto treaty, now nature has bitchslapped him back.

lol i like it

[walker 0]

Hi all

Political repercussions of actions of those in power are a fact of life. You make decisions or as in this case fail to make them and if you are in power you must take consequences.

Whether they are strategic decisions about ecological policies like Kyoto and permitting paving over of wetlands or tactical decisions such as who to put in charge of homeland defense and FIMA or to divert flood defense money to Iraq, or when to take charge and get things done.

Presidents are after all public servants paid for by public taxes if they don't do the job; its the same as your plumber you sack them.

I am glad to see this Lt. Gen. Russel Honore is now down there in charge he is the first man I have seen in there with a sensible attitude he is not taking any of this bull about the refugees might attack they've got guns and are gonna loot you for gods sake they are fellow Americans.

Quote[/b] ]He ordered all he encountered to point their weapons down, said CNN Pentagon Correspondent Barbara Starr, who was with the general. Honore repeatedly went up to military vehicles, National Guardsmen standing sentry and even to New Orleans police officers, telling them to please point their weapons down and reminding them that they were not in Iraq.

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/09/02/honore.profile/

I think a lot of the media (and a few on this forum) deserve a good kick up the arse for spreading panic, most of the looting was about drinks for dehydrated kids and babies.

Sure there were a few televisions looted, hell get a grip people rob houses and steal televisions all over the world NOT IMPORTANT PEOPLE! Anyone who thinks that is important needs a brain enema.

Priorities

* Medical aid

* Water and food

* Evacuate the people

* Get the people to temporary shelter

* Get a casualty list

* Enact plans for Mid term refugee management

* Fix the levies Build them to take C5 Plus

* Add in marked high ground shelters for people to gather if it floods

* Employ everyone who is a refugee as a re-builder

* Rebuild and Rehouse with all houses on stilts or raise the ground

* Celebrate (2109 ?)

Kind Regards Walker

[Crazysheep 1]

Were is this green house effect comments comming from? Can someone please connect a Kyoto signing with whats hapening now?

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands. lets see how a huricane is Formed. I can get in deeper with the green house effect but I would go too far off-topic. So know this, I think the green house effect is irrelivent to life today because humans have learned to adapt through many many years.

Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you untill you drown yourself from self-pity. If you whant to discuse it then create another topic, but not here guys.

Disaster strikes when it can inflict the most possible damage. Has anyone noticed that yet or am I looking at a differant direction. In other words, it was impossible for all the possiblities to be layed out for decisions. You never know what will happen in the futre untill it just heppends.

Quote[/b] ]Oh remember bush saying the convention center was now secure and save? Well he was lying apparently as people on the ground, reporters and guardsmen, are of the COMPLETE opposite  opinion.

one of the main problems of refuge center down there is organization. people don't know what thier supposed to do.

You obviously don't get the point. Yes, natural disasters will always be a problem, but all research show that the greenhouse effect causes more natural disasters, and that it causes more extreme weather. Which means you will have more hurricanes and the hurricanes will be stronger than before (no, it doesn't mean that every hurricane is c-5, but more will be). If you have a very dry forest somewhere in Spain, it will be a very big chance for it to start to burn. If you add some live fire, that chance increases...

Quote[/b] ] bet they're those damn newbies from OFP multi-player that try shooting choppers as they take off because their asses werent fast enough to grab ammo and go before the pilot took off  

Well, I bet they'll get a lot of help from a crashed chopper

To say such a thing as that is absolutly absurd and dispicable. Blaming the USA for its emissions of greenhouse gasses, saying that thats the reason why we have a number of hurricanes is completely absurd and poposterous. If I were you my friend, I would stop trying to exploit what has happened to the Gulf coast for political and ideological gain. Instead of saying that local and federal gov. is to blame becasue of untimely reatction to such an inimagineable even. You slash the USA policy of not signing some stupid treaty. Saying that becasue the USA does not beleive in Kyoto treaty, they brought this on themselves. I tell you one thing my friend, you better do a deep soul search right now inside you and see who has their priorities messed up. If anything, I would blame the geography of the area and the lack of preparation, but certainly not a treaty not being signed. Just take your treaty and walk down to New Orleans and tell the people there at the superdome and convention center about how the country had forsaken them all becasue they didn't sign the kyoto treay. Gee I wonder what kind of response you would receive from them... I have never heard anything so ingnorant and poposterous in my entire life. I suggest you look at the TV a little more so you can see for yourself if the Kyoto treaty would have made a damn difference in New Orleans. Do you think the storm would have been less powerful if the treaty was signed? Do you think if the treaty was signed the levees wouldn't break? I suggest you ask yourself those questions, and see for yourself if the treaty has anything to do with what has happened.

Baz, while I have no doubt it is upsetting to have your country go through such a tragedy and then be told it's your own fault......you have to consider the possibility that the people saying that might be right. The issue is not to do with Kyoto per se, but the complete lack of anything being done to reduce carbon dioxide emmissions and the deliberate misinformation via bogus scientific research sponsored by oil companies.

And if Bush is to blame, do you think it's right that no-one takes him to task over it for the sake of being politically correct? And would you agree, if what people are saying about greenhouse gases is correct, that people should start calling for something to be done about now?

[Apollo 0]

Were is this green house effect comments comming from? Can someone please connect a Kyoto signing with whats hapening now?

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands. lets see how a huricane is Formed. I can get in deeper with the green house effect but I would go too far off-topic. So know this, I think the green house effect is irrelivent to life today because humans have learned to adapt through many many years.

Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you untill you drown yourself from self-pity. If you whant to discuse it then create another topic, but not here guys.

Disaster strikes when it can inflict the most possible damage. Has anyone noticed that yet or am I looking at a differant direction. In other words, it was impossible for all the possiblities to be layed out for decisions. You never know what will happen in the futre untill it just heppends.

Quote[/b] ]Oh remember bush saying the convention center was now secure and save? Well he was lying apparently as people on the ground, reporters and guardsmen, are of the COMPLETE opposite  opinion.

one of the main problems of refuge center down there is organization. people don't know what thier supposed to do.

You obviously don't get the point. Yes, natural disasters will always be a problem, but all research show that the greenhouse effect causes more natural disasters, and that it causes more extreme weather. Which means you will have more hurricanes and the hurricanes will be stronger than before (no, it doesn't mean that every hurricane is c-5, but more will be). If you have a very dry forest somewhere in Spain, it will be a very big chance for it to start to burn. If you add some live fire, that chance increases...

Quote[/b] ] bet they're those damn newbies from OFP multi-player that try shooting choppers as they take off because their asses werent fast enough to grab ammo and go before the pilot took off  

Well, I bet they'll get a lot of help from a crashed chopper

To say such a thing as that is absolutly absurd and dispicable. Blaming the USA for its emissions of greenhouse gasses, saying that thats the reason why we have a number of hurricanes is completely absurd and poposterous. If I were you my friend, I would stop trying to exploit what has happened to the Gulf coast for political and ideological gain. Instead of saying that local and federal gov. is to blame becasue of untimely reatction to such an inimagineable even. You slash the USA policy of not signing some stupid treaty. Saying that becasue the USA does not beleive in Kyoto treaty, they brought this on themselves. I tell you one thing my friend, you better do a deep soul search right now inside you and see who has their priorities messed up. If anything, I would blame the geography of the area and the lack of preparation, but certainly not a treaty not being signed. Just take your treaty and walk down to New Orleans and tell the people there at the superdome and convention center about how the country had forsaken them all becasue they didn't sign the kyoto treay. Gee I wonder what kind of response you would receive from them... I have never heard anything so ingnorant and poposterous in my entire life. I suggest you look at the TV a little more so you can see for yourself if the Kyoto treaty would have made a damn difference in New Orleans. Do you think the storm would have been less powerful if the treaty was signed? Do you think if the treaty was signed the levees wouldn't break? I suggest you ask yourself those questions, and see for yourself if the treaty has anything to do with what has happened.

Well BAZ i think youre ,let me call it "emotional reaction" is far from objective to ,clearly one-sided and anti-Kyoto from point of view.You may think that patronizing or intimidating a person in discussion might help to get youre point across ,but i doubt many poeple will agree on this tone on wich you "discus" in a discussion board.

While the scientific world is wildly devided on the effects of global warming ,the general concensus nevertheless is that global warming is as a fact happening ,and this due to human intervention not naturraly ,the real discussion is the extent of global warming ,not wheter or not it does not exist.

Now im not tootally going to solely blame the US for greenhouse gasses ,though it must be said they do take a major share of it ,mainly because a) America is a big and poppulated country b)America is the most industrious country in the world and c) very liberal ecology policy's of the Bush administration have not drasticly cut emmisions while in certain other country's that has been done.Granted it must be said that those who do cut emmisions are mainly those who can easily afford it ,like Norway with it's abbundant resources ,while China on the other hand does not have the economic luxury.

However ,with global warming being a fact ,also knowing that it's proven that human industry's speed up this phenonema ,it's fairly logical to conclude that the USA has it's given share of greenhouse emmision contributing to global warming.Add to this the fact that global warmin in itself can indeed increase the severity and occurence's of major storms it's fair to conclude that US global warming does contribute to a certain extent to the size of this disaster.

To be true ,youre reaction reminds me of the reaction of most US citizins after 9/11 ,and i must say this sort of emotional reactions tend to be more typical among Americans that most other nationalities ,atleast from my experience.Afcourse it depends on the indiividual to ,but atleast on the aftermath on the bombing in Madrid or Londen there was far less emotional reaction on the internet and less of the sort of attitude that "you can't criticise my goverment for the slightest bit just because an x amount of people just died in a disaster".I wonder why you want to intimidate people in sharing their views just because of the disaster ,it looks to me as a kinda excesive moralism.

personally ,i think if the goverment made errors in this tragedy ,they should be adreessed and the goverment critisized.Afterall if the goverment can't look out for our lives anymore than what use does it have to us ,people in a society expect the goverment to provide law and order ,stabilety ,acces to life sustainable needs etc ,if the goverment isn't there to provide that for me when i need it then why the hell m i paying taxes? To fight some war in a far away land that i didn't ask for?

[mattxr 9]

Im disturbed... just seen an awfull image on the BBC news website of a womans bodie upside down floating in the water

[Baz 0]

Well I beg your pardon, but saying that because the Kyoto treaty was not signed. That this hurricane could have been less stronger and saying things of that nature is complete and utter BS... I'm sure if we had signed the treaty and the same thing happened, you guys would not be here now with your high and mighty uplifting words of encouragement for the american people. Im sure they would love to hear more aout politics exspecailly after living though this. Its bad enough hearing how stupid the govenor is "giving pats on the backs" to congressmen and senators and it just sickens me. And now to point fingers and say that had Kyoto been signed by the US... This wouldn't have happened. People, kyoto is just a piece of paper... Without action it means nothing and I hope you realise that... So by signing a piece of paper, we could have avoided this incident... If you honestly think that way then you need to get your head checked. If anything... The last thing people should be doing right now is trying to exploit what has happened for political and Kyoto gain. The last thing I would want to hear is Europeans telling us that this happened becasue Kyoto wasn't signed you can go take Kyoto and shove it. Becasue it wouldn't make a damn difference as to what happened. The sooner you realize that, the sooner you can see that people could care less about politics right now. Do you think anyone in New Orleans gives a damn about Kyoto after what has happened? It is not only ignorant to say such things as kyoto would have stopped this hurricane from building strenght and maybe the hurricane never would have occured. But it is aslo the most absurd thing I have ever heard. You all are looking at this politically, I see it as an engineering mistake... A disaster waiting to happen. I hope you all can stop this non-sense about Kyoto would have made a difference, becasue guess what... It wouldn't have and if you were in the place of people in New Orleans right now... You could care less about Kyoto and I bet most people there have never heard of Kyoto in the first place. So take your Kyoto and go preach somewhere else.

[Garcia 0]

Were is this green house effect comments comming from? Can someone please connect a Kyoto signing with whats hapening now?

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands. lets see how a huricane is Formed. I can get in deeper with the green house effect but I would go too far off-topic. So know this, I think the green house effect is irrelivent to life today because humans have learned to adapt through many many years.

Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you untill you drown yourself from self-pity. If you whant to discuse it then create another topic, but not here guys.

Disaster strikes when it can inflict the most possible damage. Has anyone noticed that yet or am I looking at a differant direction. In other words, it was impossible for all the possiblities to be layed out for decisions. You never know what will happen in the futre untill it just heppends.

Quote[/b] ]Oh remember bush saying the convention center was now secure and save? Well he was lying apparently as people on the ground, reporters and guardsmen, are of the COMPLETE opposite  opinion.

one of the main problems of refuge center down there is organization. people don't know what thier supposed to do.

You obviously don't get the point. Yes, natural disasters will always be a problem, but all research show that the greenhouse effect causes more natural disasters, and that it causes more extreme weather. Which means you will have more hurricanes and the hurricanes will be stronger than before (no, it doesn't mean that every hurricane is c-5, but more will be). If you have a very dry forest somewhere in Spain, it will be a very big chance for it to start to burn. If you add some live fire, that chance increases...

Quote[/b] ] bet they're those damn newbies from OFP multi-player that try shooting choppers as they take off because their asses werent fast enough to grab ammo and go before the pilot took off  

Well, I bet they'll get a lot of help from a crashed chopper

To say such a thing as that is absolutly absurd and dispicable. Blaming the USA for its emissions of greenhouse gasses, saying that thats the reason why we have a number of hurricanes is completely absurd and poposterous. If I were you my friend, I would stop trying to exploit what has happened to the Gulf coast for political and ideological gain. Instead of saying that local and federal gov. is to blame becasue of untimely reatction to such an inimagineable even. You slash the USA policy of not signing some stupid treaty. Saying that becasue the USA does not beleive in Kyoto treaty, they brought this on themselves. I tell you one thing my friend, you better do a deep soul search right now inside you and see who has their priorities messed up. If anything, I would blame the geography of the area and the lack of preparation, but certainly not a treaty not being signed. Just take your treaty and walk down to New Orleans and tell the people there at the superdome and convention center about how the country had forsaken them all becasue they didn't sign the kyoto treay. Gee I wonder what kind of response you would receive from them... I have never heard anything so ingnorant and poposterous in my entire life. I suggest you look at the TV a little more so you can see for yourself if the Kyoto treaty would have made a damn difference in New Orleans. Do you think the storm would have been less powerful if the treaty was signed? Do you think if the treaty was signed the levees wouldn't break? I suggest you ask yourself those questions, and see for yourself if the treaty has anything to do with what has happened.

You obviously didn't get the point either...

The point is not that this hurricane wouldn't have come if they didn't sign the treaty, it's that if they don't sign the treaty the chance of this happening in the furture will be higher. As I already said, you will always have natural disasters, but shouldn't you do as much as possible to decrease the chance of them happening?

You will never know if the hurricane would've been less powerfull if USA didn't release so much gases, but I choose to belive scientists that say that the hotter this planet gets, the more extreme weather we'll get.

And to be sure you did get the point...I've never said that this hurricane would have never hit USA if USA signed the treaty. I've never said that it would have been less powerfull if they signed it. I say that the longer it takes for them to sign it, the bigger the chance is for this happening again, and the bigger the chance is for the hurricanes to get more powerfull and destructive.

[Goeth 0]

Im disturbed... just seen an awfull image on the BBC news website of a womans bodie upside down floating in the water  

Holy crap that must be horrible if there is one floater. Have you seen pictures from Thailand after the tsunami where hundreds of black corpses float happily together?

[Sophion-Blue 0]

This disaster was, is, and will still be inevitable. There is no changing, it is out of human hands.

Are you denying that the number of hurricanes is increasing?

My God, kid do you not read properly? I said it will always be inevitable. Do I need to explain my post further?  

I guess people don't read my posts all the way though at this forum:

Quote[/b] ]Don't let me hear anything more about the greenhouse effect in this topic because I will point and laugh at you until you drown yourself from self-pity. If you want to discus it then create another topic, but not here guys.

5 times the phrase greenhouse was used after that post. This topic is not called "greenhouse effect", its about America picking up what they dropped at the gulf coast and rebuilding. Its already happened guys you can't change it.

<!> W-4 <!>

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]Well I beg your pardon, but saying that because the Kyoto treaty was not signed.

No ,you are misusing my words ,i never said this wouldn't have happened if Kyoto was signed ,noone said that here ,rather you are using this to post anti-Kyoto BS.

You can say what you want about Kyoto ,i don't care about that ,fact is that if the USA didn't agree with Kyoto ,that didn't mean they had to tottaly neglect the problem all toghether.Supposedly the USA didn't sign the treaty just because it had clausules wich they didn't agree on.It's their right to do that ,but it looks pretty dumb that the USA first criticizes a treaty for lacking effeciancy ,and therefore decided to neglect the problem altoghether ,rahter than proposing an other treaty with clausules they think are right.

And you have to take into account other people to with this problem ,every country in the world is affected by global warming ,not to speak of my native dutch lands wich are caved in behind large dikes as half the country is under the sea level here.The pollution the USA create's also affects us ,just as our pollution effects the USA.Most people are not mad that the USA didn't agree on a treaty ,however are mad that the USA therefore didn't propose an other treaty or revissions ,but just chose to neglect the whole problem while 80% of world country's agreed on it and many of them are doing economical sacrifices to reduce global warming.

Quote[/b] ]Without action it means nothing and I hope you realise that

Ah ,so we critisize kyoto because it's useless "withought action" ,and therefore we choose to neglect ecology problems at all?

Seems that the whole reasion the Bush administration didn't sign kyoto was just because they didn't want to take action ,as that is how it effectivly panned out really.And for reasons known ,afterall it would have ment large economical sacrifices for the USA.

Quote[/b] ]The last thing people should be doing right now is trying to exploit what has happened for political and Kyoto gain

How dare you to say we "exploit" this situation ,for petty thing's like political motivtions ,such remarks only show youre own blatant ignorance and short-sightness.This is not discussing ,this is slander ,breaking off another person's views with wild unfounded accusations.

And now plz stop about this Kyoto BS you repeated 5 times in youre previous post on tottaly unfounded reasons ,and try to participate into this discussion in a sensible way rather than with ignorant and emotional remarks.I do not need the patriotic censor brigade.

[denoir 0]

Well I beg your pardon, but saying that because the Kyoto treaty was not signed. That this hurricane could have been less stronger and saying things of that nature is complete and utter BS...

Yes, it's true that signing it or not would have not made a difference in this case. You have an inertia in the atmosphere that delays the effect for about 10 years after a reduction or increase is made.

Connecting Katrina to global warming is however not without reason. Climate models show quite clearly that with global warming, hurricanes significantly increase in strength because of enhancement of energy available to the storms due to higher tropical sea surface temperatures.

Had the Kyoto treaty been in effect by 1985 and fully implemented by 1995 then there is a high probability that Katrina would have probably been much weaker. Or put in a different way, if we implement Kyoto world-wide, then the chances of very destructive hurricanes, will probably be significantly lower.

And while the Kyoto treaty isn't of any immediate concern, it is of great long-term concern. The more we delay with globally implementing, the loner we will be exposed to various forms of extreme weather.

It is also worth noticing that many climatologist think that the Kyoto treaty is too little, to late - they want something far stronger in place. However, with the world's largest polluter refusing to even implement the Kyoto treaty, it is unlikely that we'll see something that goes beyond Kyoto.

[Baz 0]

I never critisized any treaty and I am not anti-kyoto.... I am merely saying that this is not the time to be discussing kyoto, and many others would agree with me. This tread is marked "hurricane katrina" not kyoto so if you want to discuss Kyoto go do so in another thread. I don't think the people of New Orleans would even begin to think about kyoto, and by the mostly european audience here discussing kyoto it focuses the thread on kyoto and not the hurricane. First off I want to say that there is no correlation between Kyoto and what has happened in the Gulf coast. So if you want to continue your discussion about Kyoto please do so somewhere else.

[Bernadotte 0]

To say such a thing as that is absolutly absurd and dispicable. Blaming the USA for its emissions of greenhouse gasses, saying that thats the reason why we have a number of hurricanes is completely absurd and poposterous.

Scripps Researchers Find Clear Evidence of Human-Produced Warming in World's Oceans (Feb 2005)

"This is perhaps the most compelling evidence yet that global warming is happening right now."  -- Tim Barnett, study author  

New Orleans, Hurricanes and Climate Change: A Question of Resiliency (June 2005)  

"If the frequency of tropical cyclones remains the same over the coming century, a greenhouse gas-induced warming may lead to a gradually increasing risk in the occurrence of highly destructive Category 5 storms."  -- Thomas Knutson

Hurricanes May Be Intensified By Global Warming (Feb 1998)

Ok Baz, please show us your evidence for saying it's all absurd.  

[der bastler 0]

Well, the US are living an expensive life. Gas prices (91 RON, cheapest non-diesel) here in Germany (similar in neighbouring countries):

1.38 EUR/litre = 1.72 $US/litre = 6.51 $US/usgal!

What's the average price in the US?

And now the US -- wasting oil/gas like hell, world champion regarding greenhouse gas emissions -- are demanding the international community to spend some of their strategic reserves to avoid problems with the US energy supply.

Not that there are more important things to fix first...

...like establishing a working supply chain of water/food for the victims in New Orleans,

...restore peace,

...rebuild the dams,

...pump dry the city,

...fight back epidemics (you'll get some for sure regarding the water quality at the moment: typhus, cholera and the like)

...and most important: get those people out of the muddy, slimy, polluted water!

But nooooo, one of the first things we hear: "Want oil. Your oil." *shakeshead*

Live with it, your gas prices will climb, even without further catastrophes. Better you learn how to not waste energy now. This way W. can concentrate on helping the hurricane victims.

Put it on a poster:

"Uncle Sam needs YOU! Save gas and electricity to help our buddies down there in the southern states!"

[jakerod 254]

Last I heard around me its $3.50 but that was like two days ago so its probably up to atleast $4.00 by now.

[Airbourne Alchaholic 0]

I hope everyone knows that Hydrogen powered machines/vehicles exist, but some Oil Companies have bought them, because hydrogen engines run on water, and companies like Shell can't own the ocean.

Hydrogen does not emmit Carbon Monoxide, but pure O2. This technology is availiable now, but it's because of selfishness and "profit" that it's being held back.

Quote[/b] ]Why Hydrogen?

Hydrogen, manufactured locally using water, wind and sun, is a secure, inexhaustible, emission-free fuel for consumer electronics, heat and electricity production, and the next generation of highway vehicles.

That has nothing to do with Katrina btw, just somthing ot do with the environment.

[Crazysheep 1]

I hope everyone knows that Hydrogen powered machines/vehicles exist, but some Oil Companies have bought them, because hydrogen engines run on water, and companies like Shell can't own the ocean.

Hydrogen does not emmit Carbon Monoxide, but pure O2. This technology is availiable now, but it's because of selfishness and "profit" that it's being held back.

That has nothing to do with Katrina btw, just somthing ot do with the environment.

We really should start some riots over that, I mean millions protested over Iraq but what the oil companies are doing is far more damaging; it could destroy everything for our children's children.

[Apollo 0]

Quote[/b] ]I never critisized any treaty and I am not anti-kyoto.... I am merely saying that this is not the time to be discussing kyoto, and many others would agree with me. This tread is marked "hurricane katrina" not kyoto so if you want to discuss Kyoto go do so in another thread. I don't think the people of New Orleans would even begin to think about kyoto, and by the mostly european audience here discussing kyoto it focuses the thread on kyoto and not the hurricane. First off I want to say that there is no correlation between Kyoto and what has happened in the Gulf coast. So if you want to continue your discussion about Kyoto please do so somewhere else.

And Noone was discussing Kyoto specific or "change this thread in a Kyoto topic" ,people adressed global warming in light of this tragedy and as you can see concerns about the effect of global warming on possible disasters are shared here by multiple posters.

in addition ,you seem to be genneraly of the oppinion that there is no reason to blame the TBA administration for the extent of this tragedy ,while i would say the majority of the rest of the world clearly see this as a hughe failure of TBA ,much worse than Putin's kursk failure.You only have to read on BBC the comments of newspapers and media worldwide on this tragedy ,most media is just baffled by the extent of TBA's failure here ,not understanding how a superpower with such enourmous means performs worse than certain 3rd world country's would do.

I would say in the end this is a most humiliating affair for the USA ,and i do not doubt that it will have hughe reprecusions on the Republican party ,afterall it was they who slashed disaster funding and send the guards to Iraq.

Quote[/b] ]We really should start some riots over that, I mean millions protested over Iraq but what the oil companies are doing is far more damaging; it could destroy everything for our children's children.

I feel it's also a bit a generation conflict ,the rich oil magnat's are usually elder people ,theyll never see the consequences of their greed ,theyll be death by then ,so why care?Or society is materialistic and selfish ,and the elder generation is the largest demographicly in most country's.It's easy to see that usually younger people are much more concerned about the enviroment than older people ,as younger people have more reason to care about it.

Seriously ,i saw recently a quite frightening BBC documentary on the North Sea gulf stream (providing Europe with heat) ,and the possibilety that melted ice from the pole caps could interrupt the warm gulf stream altoghether ,wich would result in a new European ice age.Afcourse there is probably some speculation to it ,but it's quite frightening as it is ,immagine a new ice age ,Europe is basicly screwed ,no way to support almost a billion of people on a continent as arid as Siberia ,in would mean the ned for many of our society's.And it's even not that farfetched ,interruption of the gulf stream has been known as origin of the ice ages that covered Europe before people could begin to live here.

Afcourse there is a certain threshold ,afcourse unknown ,thats the most frightening thing of all ,if it can not be accuratly predicted upon wich value's such a thing could happen then the chance is high that we will only know it when it actually happens.

[der bastler 0]

Hydrogen does not emmit Carbon Monoxide, but pure O2. This technology is availiable now, but it's because of selfishness and "profit" that it's being held back.

The downside is that hydrogene is a) difficult to handle (cooled down liquid or dissolved as metal hydrids), b) a supply chain is not established yet and c) the engines exhaust water vapour, one of the worst greenhouse gases. But you are right, would be good. It would be even better if the hydrogen would be generated using algae and bacteria and sunlight instead of using oil as it is done today.

Meanwhile LiPoly cells are getting better and cheaper, so we could combine them with thin-film solar cells to power an electric car. Put a small electric motor at each wheel and a battery pack in the engine compartment. That should do for most people.

[denoir 0]

Well, for all you Bush-haters pointing out that NO FEMA's budget got cut, that's because the district office is under federal investigation for corruption and fraud.

Well, for you Bush-lover - his administration cut the budget for the construction of the levies - something that would have probably prevented the flooding altogether.

Anyway, here's a quote for you to suck on as you seem to be one of the few people in the world who thinks this was handled appropriately:

The results are not acceptable

Quote[/b] ]There's a news item that a relief convoy just pulled out of South Carolina. It's got 1500 kilometers to drive before it reaches NO.

You don't have to ship people to South Carolina. They could have moved them just out of the water at first. How long time does it take to set up ~100,000 tents on a few dry fields outside of NO, if you have tens of thousands of national guardsmen available? This should have all been prepared and on the way days before the hurricane reached.

Quote[/b] ]There is some distance involved, and it takes time to get there.

Yes, obviously if you start moving after the disaster.

Quote[/b] ]My point is that there are some bad neighborhoods, and it's not exclusive to the US. Theo van Gogh was in a pretty good neighborhood, wasn't he?

Rape and murder in broad daylight, looting etc go way beyond of just being a "bad neighborhood", even by American standards. As for Theo van Gogh, I would hardly call that a normal situation, hence the outrage over his killing. What we're seeing in NOLA is far beyond normal and hence the outrage over what is going on there.

Quote[/b] ]When you see the 1% of the population left, and only a fraction of them are the hardened criminals, do you see the other 99%+ on TV putting their lives back together in an out of state shelter?

Bullshit, about a million evacuated and nearly half a million stayed. I would say that it is quite news worthy. The point is not that some people evacuated successfully, the point is that many did not and are suffering greatly because of incompetence in organizing the rescue efforts.

Quote[/b] ]An evacuation order means YOU pick yourself up and move YOURSELF to a shelter. It does not mean sit at home playing xbox snorting crack and gathering your shopping carts for a merry trip to walmart. Those are much of the people that are left, and that's what the media chooses to whore.

There you go again, saying that those trapped in the city, those that didn't evacuate are just a bunch of criminals who have themselves to blame. Utterly disgusting.

Quote[/b] ]It's not the people that are in trouble, it's the people that put themselves in trouble, that are wrecking it for the other innocent victims. I know there's lots of poor people that couldn't evacuate. Those that had some sense of decency moved to shelters when they were told.

What shelters? The Superdome? The Convention center? That' s where the rapes and killings are happening man.

Quote[/b] ]

Those that stayed behind by and large were the belligerent, or terminally stupid.

And statements like this puts you in my eyes on the same level as the opportunist scum who are looting the place. Political opportunism is morally little different and it's quite obvious that your comments are politically motivated. If not then you have seen the images of mothers with babies, stuck without food or water - or you belong to the terminally stupid category.

Quote[/b] ]Instead you get half-hour race-baiting TV specials intended by the biased media to incite insurrection to be manipulated against the Bush Administration

Yeah, like Fox News, known for their hatred of Bush.