The Middle East part 2

[General Barron 0]

I wonder... would the phrase "they hate you (Europeans) because of your freedoms (of speech)" apply here?

I seem to remember that phrase being mocked when applied to 9/11 attacks. Perhaps there is some truth to it after all?

I don't think Denmark ever had any troops in the ME, or ever helped out Israel. Yet, for some odd reason, the Islamofacists are screaming "Death to Denmark/France/etc!", burning your flags, and threatening your lives all the same.

Perhaps it is time to mend some bridges between the US and EU, and have an honest look at the problem?

Quote[/b] ]War is inevitable.

War is already upon us, whether we realize it or not.

[denoir 0]

Hehe, except for that wasn't the phrase. The one being mocked (and is still very mock-worthy) was:

"They're jealous of our freedoms."

The reason why they are making their displeasure known is that they feel insulted by the cartoons and think it is within their right to demand of others to follow their set of rules. It's not jealousy and they don't mind the freedoms we have - as long as the consequences of those freedoms don't step on their toes.

Quote[/b] ]Perhaps it is time to mend some bridges between the US and EU, and have an honest look at the problem?

Hehe, yeah, I can feel the love. Especially with the State Department condemning European media (US sides with Muslims in cartoon dispute (Reuters)). And of course then there's the loyal American media, sharing the plight of their European colleagues by slapping on things like this on every page regarding the controversy:

CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons out of respect for Islam. CNN

So far every major US media outlet has declined publishing the cartoons.

[der bastler 0]

Hehe, yeah, I can feel the love. Especially with the State Department condemning European media (US sides with Muslims in cartoon dispute (Reuters)). And of course then there's the loyal American media, sharing the plight of their European colleagues by slapping on things like this on every page regarding the controversy:

CNN has chosen to not show the cartoons out of respect for Islam. CNN

So far every major US media outlet has declined publishing the cartoons.

Guess the USA want to score in the Middle East...

"See, we are not bad, Europe is! Love us, hate them!"

(dramatized, might not be true)

Anyway, all people who are eating noodles are in fact threatening the noodles of His Noodliness, the Flying Spaghetti Monster! Shame on them!

(No, I cannot take it seriously. Some people should step back and look how silly they behave -- on both sides. Can't believe we are talking about adults.)

[mojo-jojo 0]

Actually the spokeman of the State Department said:

Quote[/b] ]"Our response is to say that while we certainly don’t agree with, support, or in some cases, we condemn the views that are aired in public that are published in media organizations around the world, we, at the same time, defend the right of those individuals to express their views. [...] So while we share the offense that Muslims have taken at these images, we at the same time vigorously defend the right of individuals to express points of view. [...]

So what he was really saying is that they support the right of newspapers to publish this stuff but they don't agree with the message of the cartoons.

Quote[/b] ]Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable.

He was obviously talking about muslim violence being incited not violence against Moslems. These are two entirely seperate issues.

[xawery 0]

Now I don't like those cartoons, or holocaust denials, or Christianity or Islam or any of Dostoyevsky's works and many other things.

Heretic! How dare you disagree with my subjective preferences! Burn, you shall!

Colt:

Quote[/b] ]As a slight tangent, it is interesting to note that in society, those that are Muslim, follow their religion with a passion and try to adhere the teachings, pray regularly, attend Mosques etc... I find it very rare to find a Muslim who will say 'I follow Islam but not very well'. Whereas here in the UK, if asked someone there religion and they say Christian and you followed up with do you go to Church regularly? Do you pray often? Do you mark the religious days appropriately? The answer will probably be 'no'.

Your description of Christians actually fits the 3rd generation Muslim immigrants in the Netherlands quite well. They are youths torn between the modern life and the traditionalism of the Islam. They call themselves Muslims, but do not regularly attend services or observe religious days. A rather interesting study about this subject was published a while ago...

A new trend is becoming clear around here, by the way. Young descendants of North-African and Middle-Eastern immigrants, who only recently began to truly adhere to the Islam. These individuals are often far more zealous and intolerant than people who grew up with the religion (any religion, by the way). This is starting to cause some problems. If you insist on religious exhibitionism by wearing a djellabah to the university, that's one thing. But it gets worse: the Islamic students at the biology faculty refuse to acknowledge the evolution theory. Not only that: they also sabotage the classes and lectures by ostentatiously leaving the room en bloc etc. This is truly beyond me. Why do you choose to pursue a scientific career if you know you aren't willing to meet the requirements to pass?

To make matters worse, our minister of education (a catholic, incidentally) openly flirted with the idea of Intelligent Design. Great. That's all we need.

I realise this post may be better at home in the European Politics Thread, but the issue of the inflammatory cartoons transcends the boundaries of the ME and EP topics...

[Bordoy 0]

Lets all burn flags, protest and threaten all with death!!  

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Whole thing reminds me of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4154071.stm

Some of the quotes from the white, European, Christian folk are pretty choice.

Quote[/b] ]

"There should be freedom of speech but there should never be freedom for desecration"

Not forgetting how they stood outside there, burning their TV licenses and sent death-threats to various BBC execs even before the thing was broadcasted.

Same goes for the release of The Life of Brian, groups slated it and cinemas banned that without ever actually watching it and it wasn't even about Christ himself. Additionally, some groups have been criticising Steven Spielberg recently for even allowing a portrayal of aspects of the Palestinian point of view in Munich; so much for freedom of speech in the West. Don't see how people can generalise such behaviour as an Islamic thing.

I'm all for freedom of speech but surely we should have an equal right to express outrage when we're offended by what's said, it's an act of speaking out after all. I don't support any actual acts of violence that are consequent to this and I recognise the double-standards that exist in the media in the Middle East regarding disrespect to other religions.

I can't agree with all this 'two wrongs make it right' stuff that presents itself so commonly with regards to the ME. Particularly when we're supposedly the more civilised party in all this. Surely making a greater effort to maintain the moral high-ground would make us better placed to judge all the bad shit that goes on in the ME.

[der bastler 0]

Danish embassy in Damascus is burning...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4681294.stm

Hirnfreie Trottel!

[Bordoy 0]

What a wanker!!

If Europe is so bad can't he just leave?

Or maybe he doesn't get looked after as much back home...

"ooh I hate europe and the west"

"Hello can I live here and have your benefits?"

[xawery 0]

Whole thing reminds me of this:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/tv_and_radio/4154071.stm

Good link Da12thMonkey!

I especially enjoyed this little gem of a quote:

Quote[/b] ]Stephen Green, national director of Christian Voice, said: "I find it astonishing that Mark Thompson and David Soul [the show's star] claim they are Christians and they can see nothing wrong with Jerry Springer - The Opera.

"What kind of Christians are the sort of people who find mocking God and Jesus Christ acceptable?

"If this show portrayed Mohammed or Vishnu as homosexual, ridiculous and ineffectual, it would never have seen the light of day."

A lot of people in this thread use the inverse of that last sentece as an argument. "Christians would never react like that". Please. Representatives of all religious movements react with indignation to satire and demand apologies, because they have no other argument. Satire wouldn't be satire if it didn't offend someone.

[Thunderbird 0]

Freedom of speech should have some limits in order to avoid experiencing such useless problems, was it that necessary to draw ironically the moslem prophet?

I think the moslem world's reaction towards the current events was really expected...

And we have to know that, unlike a lot of of occidental people, most of Moslems are passionately attached to their beliefs and to their religious values.

Let's keep respecting that.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[colt 0]

I was going to introduce 'Jerry Springer - The Opera' in this follow up post, but I've been beaten to it. Christian Voice also burned placards and BBC executives behind the decision to screen this and their families received death threats. Look at 'Right To Life' groups in the US. Many of them would claim to operate under the 'Christian flag' and yet abortion doctors have been killed and clinics have been bombed.

In my opinion, the more a society or country becomes secular, all religions of that country ultimately become more moderate. Where people of a religion is highly concentrated, that religion seems to become increasingly irrational to the laymans eyes. Just look at parts of the Middle East and the 'Bible Belt' in America. How would America be perceived if the fervour of the 'Bible Belt mentality' was replicated across the entire US?

It seems as though every religion goes through a turbulent stage - look at the Spanish Inquistion.  We just live in a much, much smaller world now and every protester (and satirist )is beamed across and in to living rooms at the a touch a button and the more sensational the protest, the more airtime and scrutiny is afforded it.

[Supah 0]

Freedom of speech should have some limits in order to avoid experiencing such useless problems, was it that necessary to draw ironically the moslem prophet?

I think the moslem world's reaction towards the current events was really expected...

And we have to know that, unlike a lot of of occidental people, most of Moslems are passionately attached to their beliefs and to their religious values.

Let's keep respecting that.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

Once you limit freedom it ceases to be freedom, it becomes slightly oppressive. In the Benelux countries the AEL, some arab league club that has a very limited grasp on reality, has started printing anti semetic prints denying the holocaust and making fun of anne frank. Do you see mass protests in NW europs streets? Are we burning what ever rediculous muslims countries flags? Are we nearly killing Saudi Arabian Oil sheiks? No, we've learned not to take ever and all occasion to act like bunch of simple minded uneducated hooligans. If muslims care so much about these cartoons insulting Mohammed they should do something about the people killing innocents in his name, I bet he doesn't find that too big an honour either.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]If muslims care so much about these cartoons insulting Mohammed they should do something about the people killing innocents in his name, I bet he doesn't find that too big an honour either.

I agree with the fact that most of islamic nations provide more time and consider more efforts to religion than to some other more significant fields.

But discussing about the 'bases' of islam, on its structure and how it's seen by moslems would require a deep analysis based on historical and political events.

In any way,

I think that one should avoid offending others beliefs unnecessarily.

And once again, freedom of speech should not be uselessy used.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[Supah 0]

Quote[/b] ]If muslims care so much about these cartoons insulting Mohammed they should do something about the people killing innocents in his name, I bet he doesn't find that too big an honour either.

I agree with the fact that most of islamic nations provide more time and consider more efforts to religion than to some other more significant fields.

But discussing about the 'bases' of islam, on its structure and how it's seen by moslems would require a deep analysis based on historical and political events.

In any way,

I think that one should avoid offending others beliefs unnecessarily.

And once again, freedom of speech should not be uselessy used.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

Meanwhile an intresting cartoon which interestingly illustrates the apparently single sided self declared monopoly on respect the muslim world at large is trying to win.

[Thunderbird 0]

As far as I know, both sides (jewish and muslim) always drew sarcastic cartoons of each others but by keeping limits.

I mean, Israelis rarely offend moslems by drawing their prophet and the same goes to muslims.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[der bastler 0]

Seems I have to update my former post: Additionally, they also torched the Norwegian embassy...

What a bunch of Spinner!

[EiZei 0]

As far as I know, both sides (jewish and muslim) always drew sarcastic cartoons of each others but by keeping limits.

I mean, Israelis rarely offend moslems by drawing their prophet and the same goes to muslims.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

And how are muslims supposed to draw a caricatyre of some jewish prophet without taking a piss on their own religion at the same time?

(at least I don't know anybody that would fit the bill, feel free to correct my lackluster knowledge on judaism)

[da12thMonkey 1943]

Quote[/b] ]If muslims care so much about these cartoons insulting Mohammed they should do something about the people killing innocents in his name, I bet he doesn't find that too big an honour either.

I agree with the fact that most of islamic nations provide more time and consider more efforts to religion than to some other more significant fields.

But discussing about the 'bases' of islam, on its structure and how it's seen by moslems would require a deep analysis based on historical and political events.

In any way,

I think that one should avoid offending others beliefs unnecessarily.

And once again, freedom of speech should not be uselessy used.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

Meanwhile an intresting cartoon which interestingly illustrates  the apparently single sided self declared monopoly on respect the muslim world at large is trying to win.

http://www.filibustercartoons.com/comics/20060204.gif

So because some vile, hateful people get away with doing it, it's okay for professional western media to do the same thing?

There are plenty of Muslim out there who don't agree with publishing these sort of cartoons, so suggesting that they as a religion deserve to have a taste of the same medicine, is daft.

The ones that do agree with such images are probably the ones out there sending bomb threats, burning flags and telling us all how we should all have our throats slit. I don't think anyone here has any doubt that these people in particular are a bunch of twats, and rightly deserve to be ridiculed/shot out of a cannon. But drawing Mohamed with a bomb for a noggin' is too big a generalisation of Muslims. It points a wicked finger at people who do not deserve to be forcibly associated with such wankers.

[xawery 0]

But drawing Mohammed with a bomb for a noggin' is too big a generalisation of Muslims. It points a wicked finger at people who do not deserve to be forcibly associated with such wankers.

Let's bear in mind that all the outrage is not about how Mohammed was depicted, but that he was depicted at all. I fully agree that the cartoon you describe was in poor taste and hardly humorous, but that's disputing the merits of the illustration, not it's right to be there in the first place.

Incidentally, I found some of the other cartoons quite funny, especially the one about the shortage of virgins

[denoir 0]

Freedom of speech should have some limits in order to avoid experiencing such useless problems, was it that necessary to draw ironically the moslem prophet?

I think the moslem world's reaction towards the current events was really expected...

The problem here is not really freedom of speech. I mean by that very same principles, the Muslims have a right to diss Europe and burn flags (although embassies might be taking it a bit too far).

It's not even about restricting European freedom of speech as there is plenty of precedent on similar bans. For instance, in seven of the EU countries (a minority, but still) holocaust denial is a criminal offence. Holocaust denials or caricatures of Mohamed, well, both are pretty arbitrary restrictions which show that the laws are inconsistent. While it is worth mentioning that banning anything of the sort is a clear violation of article 10 of the European Convention on Human Rights and the ECJ is slowly overturning all these laws - still, we have them today.

No, it's not about freedom of speech. The response in Europe is about the violation of the "Don't be a dick" principle. While the Muslims had every right to complain about the drawings, they were being dicks about it making all sorts of unreasonable demands. And that's why there was such a strong counter-reaction in Europe.

The larger question in all of this is why the Muslim community has a clear tendency to be dicks. Don't take me wrong, Christians and plenty of other groups are dicks on a regular basis, but with the Muslim community (or at least parts of it), this happens on a regular basis.

Examples of even more dickish behaviour:

[*] 2005, Newsweek reports of an instance of the Quran being flushed down a toilet in Gitmo. Result: Riots in Afghanistan with 17 people killed.

[*] 2002 ThisDay newspaper editorial about the year's Miss World contest suggesting that Muhammad would probably have chosen one of his wives from among the contestants had he been alive to see it, resulted in riots in which over 200 people were killed in the city of Kaduna.

There are literally dozens of incidents of this nature every single year. It is clearly some form of mass-psychotic behaviour.

Of course, that kind of shit was quite common among Christians in Europe as well.. in the 12th century, that is. And today a not entirely insignificant portion of the Muslim community seems to be on about that level of enlightenment.

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

The whole thing have really evolved to something really stupid. Today, one of our embassys were put on fire in Syrien... For waht? 12 cartoons? Come on.

The whole problem right now, is that the governments in those muslim countries, are contributing to this very stupid incident. They are spreading rumours about danish people as we speak. Latest it have been about public burnings of the couran, and that we here in Denmark have decided to throw all muslims out of the country...

Its insane. I just cant believe it, we see on TV thousind of people protesting about these drawings and yet, in the core of it all here in Denmark, there have only been one peaceful march against the drawings with around 300 persons.

There have been several marches against the hype about this. These marches are arranged by Danish muslims, who oppose to this silly trend. The scariest part of it all, is that the right-wingers are clapping their hands as we speak, because not only is the boycutting and burning of embassys useless and stupid, but it also ruins any respect that was left towards muslims... And it spreads, sadly.

Why can Muslims be so angry about 12 drawings, but its okay to blow up civilians in the name of Islam?

Why all this hate?

Its also sad to see all these ridiculous claims:

Punishment to the 12 drawers - never

Apologise from our Prime minister - never

Apologise from the newspaper - got it

Regrets from our prime minister - got it

Apologise from our Queen - why?

Apologise from our armed forces in Iraq to Iraqis - Are you serious?

Ban on any anti-islamic "ranting" in the media - never (And no religion will ever be "vetoed like that")

The drawings are simply icons. Muhammed with a bomb... Yes. Because many extremists are referring to Islam. Is it a generelisation of all muslims? No it isnt... Its just one way of seeing Muhammed. Its about putting focus on tabus like drawing muhammed (Which have been done thousinds of times the last hundred years). Anyway, ill stop ranting now... Its just so sad to see these Muslims ruin it for many other muslims.

[der bastler 0]

(although embassies might be taking it a bit too far).

Soon we will run out of embassies, eh?

SCNR

[Mr_Tea 0]

The problem isn`t the printing of sarcastic cartoons, it`s that radicals wait for any chance to escalate the situation.

If would act like them, no god would be able to help them out.

How many people was taken hostage, how many of them get killed in the name of islam?

If we would be so radical like them, we would let the big guns speak.

So it`s good for them, that we keep kalm.

[Daniel 0]

Obviously there has been over reaction to these cartoons, but seriously, what did these people think they would achieve? I'm sick to death of people poking fun at religions (especially Christianity, which seems to get little or no defence), when it's obviously going to offend a lot of people. Freedom of speech and common sense should come under the same banner.