The Middle East part 2

[Tovarish 0]

Got 54% The similarities are frightening.

[ralphwiggum 6]

http://www.cnn.com/2005/WORLD/meast/11/22/israel.politics/index.html

Quote[/b] ]JERUSALEM (CNN) -- A well-known hawk appeared to spread dovish wings this week as Prime Minister Ariel Sharon abandoned his Likud Party, saying it is unable to lead the country to its "national goals," a move that triggered early elections here.

President Moshe Katsav and parliament leaders agreed Tuesday to schedule the next round of Israeli elections on March 28.

However, the president first must hold consultations with legal advisers and with candidates from major parties to see if any of them can form a ruling coalition, which is considered unlikely.

Sharon announced Monday he was leaving Likud, which he helped create, to launch a new "liberal movement" that aims to "lay the foundations for a peace settlement" with the Palestinians, the prime minister said.

Either he is doing this so he could rule a party where he has more control, or he actually thinks that military action is not sufficient to get rid of the conflict, and now learned that what Rabin accomplished was much better.

If Sharon is really walking in the steps of peace, I wonder what some of extremists are thinking. I'd suggest better security for Sharon.

[EiZei 0]

Mahmoud Ahmadinejad hits a new low:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/4529198.stm

Quote[/b] ]

Holocaust comments spark outrage

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad

Ahmadinejad's remarks echo other recent statements

International condemnation has greeted comments by Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad that the Nazi Holocaust was "a myth".

Mr Ahmadinejad said he did not believe six million Jews had died at the hands of the Nazis last century.

Germany said his comments could harm attempts to restart nuclear talks.

A White House spokesman said the comments showed the need to "keep Iran from developing nuclear weapons".

"All responsible leaders in the international community recognise how outrageous such comments are," said spokesman Scott McClellan.

'Shocking' comments

Mr Ahmadinejad made the comments while speaking on live TV in the south-eastern city of Zahedan.

"They have created a myth today that they call the massacre of Jews and they consider it a principle above God, religions and the prophets," he said.

He called for Europe or North America - even Alaska - to host a Jewish state, not the Middle East.

German Foreign Minister Frank-Walter Steinmeier told reporters Mr Ahmadinejad's remarks were "shocking".

"I cannot deny that they may weigh on...the chances for the negotiations on the so-called nuclear dossier," he said.

[harley 3 1185 0]

I wonder, what will be Mr. Ahmadinejad's next cunning ploy to make the rest of the world think that he's a rabid idiot. He's not an Arab, is he? I was sure he wasn't, until now...

As for the "lgf" test, which I only just noticed, I got 69%. Scary.

[wheitmann 0]

I also got 69% in that test....

[Bernadotte 0]

http://www.drmenlo.com/lgfquiz/

This one is quite tough, I only got 6 right.

I got 92%... sorry to say.  Ugh!!  

I thought for sure that only a Nazi could say, "I really don't consider it killing. It's simply [the] extermination of vermin, diseased vermin..."

[Balschoiw 0]

I think that he intentionally tries to build tensions to separate Iran from the rest of the ME. Right now he fuels the fire to unite Iran and once he has made them mad enough he will most likely reach out to grab some territory, preferable Iraq´s territory once the coalition has been removed from the country.

Maybe he awaits an israeli strike on his territory. This would give him whatever justification he needs for whatever he has in mind.

Pretty dangerous situation, much more dangerous than Iraq ever was during the last 20 years.

[harley 3 1185 0]

But technically and historically Israel was a threat to and was threatened by a Pan-Arabic hegemony - Iran i.e. Persia should have no beef with Israel, yet Ahmadinejad is deliberately amplifying this form the safety of his Muslim Council and Grand Ayatollah backers - i.e. the President of Iran is putting forth a religious message totally contrary to that which the Qur'an putteth forth.

With Sharon forming a broad-support moderate party in Israel, it's doubtful that the Israeli state will be as blatantly antagonistic as in the past, so Ahmadinejad is grapping at thin air, and making himself look like a dangerous man on the international scene. I'd say it's time for sanctions except that due to the fact that half the population of Iran (around 40 million people) is under the age of 25, some people could suffer big time...What a world we live in.

[theavonlady 2]

the President of Iran is putting forth a religious message totally contrary to that which the Qur'an putteth forth.

Yeh. Sure. Right.

Jews as depicted in the Quran.

"But you Jews went back on your word and were lost losers. So become apes, despised and hated. We made an example out of you."

-- Quran 2:64

"Allah made the Jews leave their homes by terrorizing them so that you killed some and made many captive. And He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

-- Quran 33:26

"Sufficient for the Jew is the Flaming Fire!"

-- Quran 4:55

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: The last hour would not come unless the Muslims will fight against the Jews and the Muslims would kill them until the Jews would hide themselves behind a stone or a tree and a stone or a tree would say: Muslim, or the servant of Allah, there is a Jew behind me; come and kill him; but the tree Gharqad would not say, for it is the tree of the Jews.

-- Sahih Muslim, Book 041, Number 6985.

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until you fight with the Jews, and the stone behind which a Jew will be hiding will say. "O Muslim! There is a Jew hiding behind me, so kill him."

-- Sahih Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 52, Number 177.

Read it all in:

The Book Pertaining to the Turmoil and Portents of the Last Hour (Kitab Al-Fitan wa Ashrat As-Sa`ah).

And today's news items are just more of the same:

Palestinians: Jews come from pigs, monkeys.

Hizballah Symposium: "Just Like Hitler Fought The Jews…We Too Should Fight The Jews and Burn Them".

Or would you rather have another cup-a-dah'wa, with 2 sugars?

[Bernadotte 0]

Ahmadinejad is making these statements almost entirely for domestic political gain. It's all a part of his scheme to marginalise Iran's moderates and reformists who keep pushing for more normalised relations with the west. What better way to undermine the reformists' efforts than to get the west to hate you. Suddenly your reformist foes are seen as allies of the haters of Iran.

It's a clever and dangerous strategy by Ahmadinejad.

[theavonlady 2]

It's all a part of his scheme to marginalise Iran's moderates and reformists who keep pushing for more normalised relations with the west.

You just call on my name

and you know wherever I am,

I'll come running

to see you again.

Winter, spring, summer or fall,

all you got to do is call,

and I'll be there - yes I will -

'cause you've got a friend.

Putin Calls Russia Islamic World's Most Reliable Ally.

EDIT: Hi, Bernadotte. Long time no see. Does your Blackberry ring when this thread is updated?

Mine does!

[harley 3 1185 0]

Hmm, thank you for the quotes from the Suras.  The rest is plain hadith which is quite frankly ambiguous bleep.

Reflecting on my previous post I should have said what Muhammad putteth forth.  I forgot that certain parts of the Qur'an were put together after the Islamic state went on an all-consuming exercise in empire-building, therefore anti-Semitic bluster would outweigh the neutral and positive aspects of the Jews.

Plus what many Muslims seem to forget is that without the Jews Muhammad would never have defeated the pagans and merchants of Mecca; even during the crusades the Muslims were content to live with the Jews whilst virulently killing Christians...Now it's all Palestine this, and Palestine that.  If Muslims paid more attention to the Qu'ran and not to the damn hadith they would know that it's up to Allah to judge everyone, not some tin-pot puppet in a non-Arab country.

Edit: Russia Islam's greatest friend? Maybe Putin is its friend due to his amazing track record on deconstructing democracy and strangling the economy, surely an example to Muslim states everywhere. Or maybe the pogroms of the old order bring a tear to the eyes of old time Islamic extremists? Or all the Russian hardware which clutters the arsenals of many an Islamic arsenal? Arrgh...

[theavonlady 2]

Hmm, thank you for the quotes from the Suras.  The rest is plain hadith which is quite frankly ambiguous bleep.

Apologist extraordinaire!

Quote[/b] ]Reflecting on my previous post I should have said what Muhammad putteth forth.  I forgot that certain parts of the Qur'an were put together after the Islamic state went on an all-consuming exercise in empire-building, therefore anti-Semitic bluster would outweigh the neutral and positive aspects of the Jews.

So, you claim that not every word in the Quran, as Muslims have it, is the absolute truth, handed down to Allah's messenger?

Let's not lose our heads!

Quote[/b] ]Plus what many Muslims seem to forget is that without the Jews Muhammad would never have defeated the pagans and merchants of Mecca; even during the crusades the Muslims were content to live with the Jews whilst virulently killing Christians...

As in my enemy's enemy is my friend? Charmed?

And all this while we Jews were low-caste dhimmis in Dar al Islam.

Quote[/b] ]Now it's all Palestine this, and Palestine that.  If Muslims paid more attention to the Qu'ran and not to the damn hadith they would know that it's up to Allah to judge everyone, not some tin-pot puppet in a non-Arab country.

Really? Mohammed was a pretty judgemental guy and he's the roll model deluxe of Islam.

Quote[/b] ]Edit:  Russia Islam's greatest friend?  Maybe Putin is its friend due to his amazing track record on deconstructing democracy and strangling the economy, surely an example to Muslim states everywhere.  Or maybe the pogroms of the old order bring a tear to the eyes of old time Islamic extremists?  Or all the Russian hardware which clutters the arsenals of many an Islamic arsenal?  Arrgh...

You forgot the shiny new nuclear reactors. The ones that still have the "peel before using" stickers on them.

[ralphwiggum 6]

before this gets ugly again, I'm warning all not to get into discussion of religion.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]I'd say it's time for sanctions except that due to the fact that half the population of Iran (around 40 million people) is under the age of 25, some people could suffer big tim

The Iranian government is deeply anchored in Islamic values that are its main bases.

The purpose of his remarks is to gain the support of the most extremists of the Moslem world but I think iranian people don't have to suffer of his madness and stupidity and I'm even quite sure the international community thinks the same.

seems we got the new 21st century's Hitler...

Regards

Thunderbird84

[Balschoiw 0]

Sanctions won´t work for the simple reason that you can´t really hurt Iran with sanctions. They have a pretty good economy on their own and are not that dependant on foreign goods...well except russian AA missles to get those israelian intruders maybe

[Bernadotte 0]

Consider how the world reacts when different governments deny different genocides.  The Iranian leader has denied the Holocaust, but what if his government actually prosecuted Iranians who acknowledge what Hitler did?

Quote[/b] ]Mr. Pamuk, 53, the author of "My Name Is Red" and "Snow," is accused of insulting "Turkishness" with his comments to a Swiss magazine in February. In the interview, he referred to the Armenian genocide committed by the Ottoman government during World War I, and to the Turkish government's more recent clashes with Kurds. "One million Armenians and 30,000 Kurds were killed in these lands and nobody but me dares talk about it," the magazine quoted him as saying.

International scholars have widely agreed that more than a million Armenians were killed in the genocide. But the topic is still off-limits in Turkey, and the government still denies that the killings were part of a genocidal campaign. Mr. Pamuk's comments provoked outrage in the country, and he was charged under Article 301 of the revised penal code, which criminalizes criticism of "Turkishness," of state institutions and of the revered founder of the republic, Ataturk.

The author faces up to three years in prison if convicted.

NYT

For denying genocides, one nation is burned in the media while the other is prepared for EU membership.

Different nations or simply different genocides?  

[EiZei 0]

For denying genocides, one nation is burned in the media while the other is prepared for EU membership.

Different nations or simply different genocides?

It's not like this is getting ignored, I have seen this mentioned on HRW and BBC quite some time ago. Even the EU enlargement commisioner told that he was seriously concerned about this.

[Bernadotte 0]

It's not like this is getting ignored...

It's not like anyone has said this is getting ignored.

I think that he intentionally tries to build tensions to separate Iran from the rest of the ME. Right now he fuels the fire to unite Iran and once he has made them mad enough he will most likely reach out to grab some territory, preferable Iraq´s territory once the coalition has been removed from the country.

Has Iran ever indicated aggressive territorial ambitions?  On the contrary, it was Iran that was attacked by Iraq just as Kuwait was attacked by Iraq.

Even more ironic is that possible future EU member state (and genocide denier) Turkey, is the only nation to have indicated territorial ambitions towards part of Iraq.

[Thunderbird 0]

Quote[/b] ]it was Iran that was attacked by Iraq just as Kuwait was attacked by Iraq.

And a coallition of occidental countries supported Iraq to take out the Khumaini governement...a few years laters, the same countries destroyed it entirely.

History is an irony factory

[denoir 0]

For denying genocides, one nation is burned in the media while the other is prepared for EU membership.

Different nations or simply different genocides?  

.. Turkey's arrest of Pamuk hardly went unnoticed, and the EU issued a protest - just like in the case of Iran. ( EU blasts Turkish author's trial [bBC]).

Second, this whole thing wasn't the Turkish government's idea.  They've repeatedly stated that, and that they are against the the arrest of the writer - but that they cannot interfere in judicial matters. Bottom line was that they did not want to upset the hardcore nationalists, which have some popular support.

Ultimately, largely due to EU pressure, the

trial has been halted.

As for Turkish denial of the genocide - it's not that simple. They're not denying that the Armenians were killed and they're not even really disputing the numbers. They are disputing the label "genocide" as they claim the killings were symmetric and part of a war where many Turks as well lost their lives. Plus, Turkey is not calling for Armenia to be "wiped off the map", so in context, their denial is far less relevant.

Iran on the other hand officially disputes numbers and has recently called for the destruction of Israel. Speaking of Iran:

Iran president bans Western music [bBC]

Quote[/b] ]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad has banned Western and "indecent" music from state-run TV and radio stations.

The ban follows a ruling in October by the Supreme Cultural Revolutionary Council, which he heads, to ban Western songs from the airwaves.

"Blocking indecent and Western music from the Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting is required," a statement from the council said. Songs by artists such as Eric Clapton and George Michael will be affected.

'Lack of knowledge'

Songs such as Clapton's Rush, Michael's Careless Whisper and The Eagles' Hotel California are often used as background music on Iranian TV programmes.

Songs by American easy-listening artist Kenny G are also often featured.

"This is terrible," said Iranian guitarist Babak Riahipour, a musician whose songs featured on state TV and radio. "The decision shows a lack of knowledge and experience."

Mr Ahmadinejad became president this year promising to reverse a recent series of reforms and return Iran to the ultra-conservative atmosphere of the 1979 revolution.

"Supervision of content from films, TV series and their voice-overs is emphasized in order to support spiritual cinema and to eliminate trite and violence," the council said on its website in reference to the October ruling.

Mr Ahmadinejad's programme has included sacking more moderate members of the government and replacing them with ex-military commanders and politically inexperienced religious leaders. In recent weeks he launched an outspoken attack on Israel, calling for the Jewish state to be "wiped off the map".

He also claimed the Nazi Holocaust, which killed six million Jews, was a "myth".

This is the really sad part of the Iraq failure. Regimes like the Iranian one are free to wander off base as far as they wish without any restrictions. America, with a realistic threat of force was the only one who could at least to a degree influence things. Not so anymore. Military, diplomatically and morally beaten America poses no threat at all to Iran. Bush has a full time job licking his fatal or near-fatal political wounds. There won't be popular or political support for another war for quite some time now. And even if they had the will, they don't have the military resources to do so - not to mention that it would be very hard to find any allies today.

Even on the diplomatic front America is quiet, after the unilateralist prelude to the Iraq war and the later loss of any hint of moral high ground, they've left the diplomatic part to the EU. And the EU is far to busy trying to figure itself out to really care about what's going on in the rest of the world. Sure, there will be some statements and condemnations back and forth, but everybody knows they don't mean anything. It's not backed by force and not even economic sanctions.

Ironically, what we are seeing is the exact opposite of the neoconservative plan for the region and the world. The idea was that a combination of a successful Arab democracy and a credible threat of force would transform the region - including Iran. The problem was that they were too arrogant and naive to consider the possibility of Iraq being anything else but a grand success story.

[theavonlady 2]

What?

They didn't ban Cat Stevens' (PBUH) "Peace Train"?

What a slip-up!

[EiZei 0]

They would not be losing much if this ban would only apply to music produced from now on..

Seems that Mahmoud does have something common with hardliner israelis afterall:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR....C6B.htm

Quote[/b] ]

... In a wide-ranging interview with the state run Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) just days before Friday's elections, Ahmadinejad slammed the United Nations as "one-sided, stacked against the world of Islam".

[theavonlady 2]

They would not be losing much if this ban would only apply to music produced from now on..

Seems that Mahmoud does have something common with hardliner israelis afterall:

http://english.aljazeera.net/NR....C6B.htm

Quote[/b] ]

... In a wide-ranging interview with the state run Islamic Republic of Iran Broadcasting (IRIB) just days before Friday's elections, Ahmadinejad slammed the United Nations as "one-sided, stacked against the world of Islam".

Cursed infidel dogs!

[Bernadotte 0]

For denying genocides, one nation is burned in the media while the other is prepared for EU membership.

Different nations or simply different genocides?  

.. Turkey's arrest of Pamuk hardly went unnoticed, and the EU issued a protest - just like in the case of Iran. ( EU blasts Turkish author's trial [bBC]).

Oh really?  Just like in Iran, huh?  Who is facing charges for acknowledging the Holocaust in Iran?

Second, this whole thing wasn't the Turkish government's idea.  They've repeatedly stated that, and that they are against the the arrest of the writer - but that they cannot interfere in judicial matters.

Oh really?  Then who created Article 301/1 after Pamuk's arrest if not the government?  It seems they played a rather large part in this whole thing.

Ultimately, largely due to EU pressure, the

trial has been halted.

Oh really?  There's no denying EU pressure, however the judge simply stated that Pamuk should not face prosecution under legal terms established 4 months after committing the offence.  And the terms in effect at the time of the offence require the court to have permission of the Justice Ministry.  So it seems the government actually can interfere in this judicial matter, after all.

Turkey is not calling for Armenia to be "wiped off the map", so in context, their denial is far less relevant.

And what if they were?  Would comments about what happened in the early 20th century suddenly have greater relevance?  Is it any less relevant for Turkey to be openly threatening any creation of an independant Kurdistan in N. Iraq as long as Turkey is not denying historical events there?

Iran on the other hand officially disputes numbers and has recently called for the destruction of Israel.

Yeah right!!  ...As if proving Holocaust numbers to Iran's leader is suddenly going to convince him to accept the creation of Israel in Palestine.

This is the really sad part of the Iraq failure. Regimes like the Iranian one are free to wander off base as far as they wish without any restrictions.

Off base?  What base?  And who decides this base that you would like the world to stay on?  The USA?  

America, with a realistic threat of force was the only one who could at least to a degree influence things. Not so anymore.

Not anymore, huh?  Seems to me the "realistic threat of force" wasn't working very well before, either.  

There won't be popular or political support for another war for quite some time now.

Um...  Are you including this in the really sad part of the Iraq failure?

Ironically, what we are seeing is the exact opposite of the neoconservative plan for the region and the world. The idea was that a combination of a successful Arab democracy and a credible threat of force would transform the region - including Iran.

Transform it into what, a close ally like Egypt, where opposition candidates can still be beaten to death and where the USA can still send kidnapped terror suspects for less legal forms of interrogation?  How many 9/11 hijackers came from NeoCon targets like Iraq, Iran or Syria as opposed to US allies like Saudi Arabia and Egypt?

[Replies to some of this should probably be posted in other threads.]