The Middle East part 2

[doc stahlhelm 1]

nonono, no excuse!

~2 years ago, the a german minister, schily, said that freedom of thinking and freedom of speech in the western culture is also the freedom to think that the whole islam ist just an mistake. he earned protests from many islamic countrys for that, especially from saudi arabia. of course the protest was not a mass protest. but its worst enough.

but the protest in the islamic world in the moment are a document of religous hysteria. trust me, if this people will ever get control of our world, the result will be harder than the european mediaeval times.

[harley 3 1185 0]

We here in the West have learnt to both respect and make fun of religion;

Alas, many Muslims would rather we accord greater respect to their God and Prophet than we show our own.

There may be a militant, religious right wing in the West, but it is not above ridicule, which apparently is far too free for our Islamic friends.

My response, as a liberal conservative, is that any Muslims in the Middle East offended by a cartoon drawn thousands of miles away which was designed to satirise and not smear their Prophet can go to Hell.

It's the people of Saudi Arabia's right to boycott Danish goods, but sooner or later the West is going to be in a position to boycott ME oil, and then all these smart-ass religious scholars will be left with their Theology degrees and nothing else. They may have the right to get uppity, but they're not exactly in the best position to do so.

I echo Denoir's exhortation to "Buy Danish!"

[kakagoegie 0]

Quote[/b] ]We are seeing Other countries trying to push in their control-society into Europe. This just wont happen. We have our free speach, and thats the way its going to be.

Hollywood anyone ?  

The package is more attractive MAYBE but the "truth" often displayed in those movies, especially warmovies, is far from being authentic.

I remember a big controversy about the "Passion of christ" movie by Mel Gibson aswell. I feel safe to say that we are not that far away from the things we blame others for. Replace "Mohammed" with "USA", "Jesus Christ" or "United we stand" and rethink the approach  

Bals, you are totally wrong with this now. I agree with Barron that we are miles away from each other.

So, you said that there was a big fuss about the "Passion of the Christ". Did that fuss inlcude: riots, boycots, violence, bomb threats and other of those things. I don't recall.  

Maybe you remember a dutch guy being slaugthered on the street for speaking bad about Islam. Ever heard about Salman Rushdie. Just open your eyes. We are miles, no light years apart. Did Christians or Jews went out on the streets, delcaring war on some country because they were insulted. I don't think so.

And don't try come up with that BS like: "500 years ago we had the crusades, and than we all hated the Muslims and wanted to kill them". It was 500 years ago. I burried my dagger long time ago :P.

It's just a fact. Western people (especially Europeans) are more open minded than people from the Middle-East. But should we accept views from other people who are less open minded, because we are open minded   .

[theavonlady 2]

[Ironsight 1]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/763/09ra.jpg

lol

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. I have seen cartoons way worse in Dutch newspapers and sites and I am sure we are not a case on our own. Why are they picking Denmark and why not the Netherlands for example?

[Garcia 0]

Because Denmark was the first to publish the drawings, then Norway, and then the rest of the world.

[xawery 0]

http://img139.imageshack.us/img139/763/09ra.jpg

lol

I really don't understand what all the fuss is about. I have seen cartoons way worse in Dutch newspapers and sites and I am sure we are not a case on our own. Why are they picking Denmark and why not the Netherlands for example?

Well, something similar did happen a while ago, albeit on smaller scale. The monthly magazine of NRC Handelsblad used the front of the Koran for the cover image. Deliverymen of the Islamic faith either didn't deliver the magazine to the subscribers at all, or delivered it with the cover torn off.

On a different note: Frank E. Peters makes a very interesting observation in his book "The Monotheists: Jews, Christians, and Muslims in Conflict and Competition". He argues that because the Islam was (historically) more universal and less dogmatic than Christanity, it managed to coexist with science without much friction. Christianity on the other hand was confronted by rationalism during the Enlightenment and had to give up ground in the society. The Islam was never forced to do that, and thus it is much more prominent and dominant in Muslim societies than Christianity is in (ex-)Christian ones.

Still, this behaviour isn't solely the domain of Muslims. Let's use another religious country as an example: Poland. In the nineties, the magazine "Wprost" used a famous painting of Mary and Jesus with gasmasks on as a cover (the gasmasks were, obviously, their own addition ). The idea was for the cover to symbolise the air pollution in the city where the painting is displayed. Well, the symbolism was lost on most people. You wouldn't believe the uproar: boycotts, distraught priests and followers, threats etc.

Conclusion: idiocy is universal!

[Abs_01 0]

I've been refraining from replying in this thread for a few days now, because I find this whole thing to be somewhat ludicrous. I both agree and disagree with many comments often made by the same people. I am not particularly religious by any means, but I do see where both sides are coming from. Maybe I'm wrong in seeing the middle ground, but here's how I see things:

1. There is a lot of generalizing going on here (and everywhere) which is why people will keep on butting heads. "Muslims are showing outrage at comics...where are they when terrorists behead people?"

As far as I know, there is no general concensus on muslim opinions on any one controversial topic in our world today, so having this kind of attitude is very detrimental. There are muslims out there who cheered on the streets when 9/11 happened, and there are also muslims who decried their actions as well. Another incident where muslims have spoken out against terrorists happend just a month ago, when there were calls from muslim scholars all over the world (not to mention one from a captured terrorist as well) to release four christian aid workers captured in Iraq. My point here is that people will always have different reactions and opinions to different events. To generalize them in one category because of an outspoken faction, however, is really a shameful thing to do.

2. Why are they so outraged over someone's right to free speech?

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but in Islam (as in many religions) the worship of idols is a sin. The reason that Islam has a ban on drawings of the Prophet Muhammed is because they feel that this is a step towards the worship of idols, and this belief is not an arbitrary decision made by one person, but ingrained in their religion.

For over one billion people out there, this religion is the reason they are alive right now. Any insult geared towards Islam is geared towards their way of life. For that, I can't blame them for their outrage.

Many laws in the world are based on the harm principle outlines by utilitarians, and that principle states that you may do what you wish, as long as you do not harm another person. Clearly, this principle is still reflected today, although the definition of harm has been expanded to encompass more than just physical harm. Racism is illegal in many countries around the world. When you silence a racist, are you impeding on his right to free speech? Of course; but society has no tolerance for this kind of free speech. In Germany right now, Ernst Zundel is on trial for spreading hate literature by denying that the holocaust ever took place. Is his right to free speech being violated as well? Yes; but with very good reason...free speech of this kind is hurtful to our society.

There are always limitations on our freedoms. I know; it seems contradictory, but true freedom is essentially nothing but anarchy.

I can't pretend to know the answer to everything, but I agree with what someone on here said: intolerance breeds intolerance. Knowing this, and not liking this in other people, we have to recognize it in ourselves and stop it before we become what we dislike.

Abs

[EiZei 0]

Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here, but in Islam (as in many religions) the worship of idols is a sin. The reason that Islam has a ban on drawings of the Prophet Muhammed is because they feel that this is a step towards the worship of idols, and this belief is not an arbitrary decision made by one person, but ingrained in their religion.

Cry me a fucking river. Every other religion has stuff like that violated every day even by their followers. Yet only the followers of Islam are being this touchy (and some extremist christians who luckily are much smaller minority in the west).

Quote[/b] ]

For over one billion people out there, this religion is the reason they are alive right now. Any insult geared towards Islam is geared towards their way of life. For that, I can't blame them for their outrage.

Or maybe they should start focusing on their own problems and shut up like everybody else.

Quote[/b] ]

Many laws in the world are based on the harm principle outlines by utilitarians, and that principle states that you may do what you wish, as long as you do not harm another person. Clearly, this principle is still reflected today, although the definition of harm has been expanded to encompass more than just physical harm. Racism is illegal in many countries around the world. When you silence a racist, are you impeding on his right to free speech? Of course; but society has no tolerance for this kind of free speech. In Germany right now, Ernst Zundel is on trial for spreading hate literature by denying that the holocaust ever took place. Is his right to free speech being violated as well? Yes; but with very good reason...free speech of this kind is hurtful to our society.

The problem is when the society starts defining what is "harmful" or not. I am sure that when Martin Luther nailed those 95 theses it certainly was offensive to a lot of catholics. I am sure when the US civil rights movement started some southerners found it offensive. You just can't ban something because it offends some people and expect it not be abused at some point.

The are so many values and viewpoints that you cannot possibly please them all. In the end this kind of laws help to serve the aggressive supporters of the most prevalent ones.

Quote[/b] ]

There are always limitations on our freedoms. I know; it seems contradictory, but true freedom is essentially nothing but anarchy.

And by true freedom you mean saying stuff some people do not find appropriate?

Quote[/b] ]

I can't pretend to know the answer to everything, but I agree with what someone on here said: intolerance breeds intolerance. Knowing this, and not liking this in other people, we have to recognize it in ourselves and stop it before we become what we dislike.

Indeed, and instead of burying our heads in the sand and pretending it does not exist we should confront it.

[SPQR 0]

I do agree with Nemesis6 and theavonlady showing us supposed satyrical draws. Rest of the World hasn't shout hatred or shocked manners while discovering those (I'd rather think Medias don't care at all).

In France, others monotheistic religions are setting aside groanning muslims, themselves telling such cartoons about them and others are humiliating them, denouncing their kins...

Maybe should we offer them yellow crescent to sew on the clothes to help them feel better as victims ?

The French France-Soir newspaper' director of Information was sacked (by the french-egyptian owner) because he printed an article about the danish draws. The next day, as defiance, the new director of information printed a new draw and gave his dismissal, boldly defending the freedom of speech.

This morning, on the radio, a French satyrical drawer was telling a rather odd story. He went in Iran, visiting local drawers. He saw a draw presenting Jesus with a cellular phone, speaking, and next an iranian telling him not to speak so loudly as they were currently praying...

You know what, I had a good laugh hearing that as it was very eccentric while it could also have a part of truth.

However, I've never heard about it from an Occidental or Christian world making fuss about it

Satyrical drawing exist since a long time in Occident, Japan, and probably else. Nobody is forced to like one or all satyrical cartoons, but in our land nobody can't be forced to shut it up (unless praising criminal activities and so on...).

I can understand somebody telling me he doesn't like such cartoons... Until he starts to use this as a policital weapon to praise whatever he wants.

I've heard anywhere that the suicide-bomb men are killed themselves and murdering civilians in the name of Mickey Mouse, inch' Disney. On the other side, not all the muslims wave their faith as a flag, like waved the red flag of Mao's red guard.

In real life, I undestand than the louder your shout, less pious and wise is your faith. It's always easy to find evil in your neighbour's life than seeing his shit in his own house.

Faith and Wisdom can't be measured in decibels but in free and caring acts.

[colt 0]

Speaking as an Athiest.

Showing the Prophet with a bomb sticking out of his headdress or brandishing a dagger with a menacing scowl on his face is obviously going to stir things up and I think it's offensive to Muslims. The drawing is saying that the very essence of Islam is violent and destructive.

As for people saying that Christanity or other religeons are mocked / satirised in the West (national papers or TV shows /

films). That may be true, but those Gods are never depicted as inciting or preaching violence. They're always shown as benevolent.

What would the reaction be if a paper, as a critque of say Christianity; used Passover as an example and  published a drawing of God frothing at the mouth and holding a knife to the throat of a new-born baby? I don't think the reaction would be "meh".

As for other Euopean countries publising the drawings as a "show of solidarity for free speech". I think that's complete bollocks. It smacks of just goading Muslims in order to provoke more anger and hostility, creating even more of a news frenzy.

:::

As a slight tangent, it is interesting to note that in society, those that are Muslim, follow their religion with a passion and try to adhere the teachings, pray regularly, attend Mosques etc... I find it very rare to find a Muslim who will say 'I follow Islam but not very well'. Whereas here in the UK, if asked someone there religion and they say Christian and you followed up with do you go to Church regularly? Do you pray often? Do you mark the religious days appropriately? The answer will probably be 'no'.

To me it seems that those who follow Islam, their religeon is the central core to their being. Other religions and their followers may be slightly more ambivalent to what they see as encroachment into offensiveness but there ARE boundries to all religions and they should be respected.

As with anything in life, if you attack something that people feel passionately about, expect a passionate response.

Naturally, individuals and groups threating violence go beyond what is acceptable.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Naturally, individuals and groups threating violence go beyond what is acceptable.

Just noting, it's funny that this tiny detail about the value of human life seems to be left at the end of most statetemenst on the issue as a sidenote.

I don't hear too much condemning of death threats or the demonizing cartoons presented in Arab media. Maybe they are becoming more understandable than anger over stupid cartoons.

[Garcia 0]

Quote[/b] ]As a slight tangent, it is interesting to note that in society, those that are Muslim, follow their religion with a passion and try to adhere the teachings, pray regularly, attend Mosques etc... I find it very rare to find a Muslim who will say 'I follow Islam but not very well'. Whereas here in the UK, if asked someone there religion and they say Christian and you followed up with do you go to Church regularly? Do you pray often? Do you mark the religious days appropriately? The answer will probably be 'no'.

Well, at least muslims follow their religion. Most ppl in the west say they are religious, but like 95% of them don't give a shit about their religion really. If you can find a christian person in europe, whos not a fanatic or a munk or something like that, who actually don't swear, who treats his next person as he wish the next person should treat him etc, you gotta be very lucky

Most christians can't really be countet as christians...I know a guy saying he is christian and belive in God etc, but with the amount of sins he performs a day, he's going straight to hell

[harley 3 1185 0]

With the amount of sins the average Muslim commits a day, even if it's only one, they're not exactly putting themselves in Allah's good books.

Hell, they're committing a sin everytime they complain about the cartoon - Allah is the only one who can judge a person, or in this case, an editor and cartoonists, and associated news people; not his religionists. If they can criticise "western behaviour", that means that we can damn well criticise their automatic cultural reflex.

In the West, we have the freedom to call ourselves by whatever religious epithet we desire, and we also tend not to be above whatever satirising comes our way. We also accept that Government comes before Church, whatever our religious persuasion. Can't really say that about most Islamists.

Listening to Radio 5 Live last night, an American Muslim leader put it perfectly;

"The average Muslim has the right to be offended by the cartoon, and the right to complain. But the Muslim governments have not got the right to respond against another country's expression of free will, and blow the affair out of all proportion. They should be restraining their citizens and co-religionists instead of fanning the flames."

[kakagoegie 0]

As for people saying that Christanity or other religeons are mocked / satirised in the West (national papers or TV shows /

films). That may be true, but those Gods are never depicted as inciting or preaching violence. They're always shown as benevolent.

Hmm, maybe this is because christianity isn't violent nowadays. Today we got fairly large numbers of Muslims, willing to kill non-Muslims. I call this violent. I can't remember any christian groups who want to kill non-christians. The koran can be interpreted as encouraging violence. A young Muslim is in trial in the Netherlands. He said that all non-Muslims should be killed.

The New Testament don't encourage people to violence. At least, that's what I know about it.

What would the reaction be if a paper, as a critque of say Christianity; used Passover as an example and  published a drawing of God frothing at the mouth and holding a knife to the throat of a new-born baby? I don't think the reaction would be "meh".

I said it before. The reactions wouldn't be violent like they are in the Muslims world.

[der bastler 0]

Let's all follow the Flying Spaghetti Monster!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

http://uncyclopedia.org/wiki/Flying_Spaghetti_Monster

No, seriously(*), regarding the cartoon incident...

Call for excuse because being upset by cartoons? No problem, you have the right to do that.

Call for censorship and call for punishment of citizens who spoke free (several foreign ministers)? Threaten with devastation? Kidnap a German teacher? Storm foreign offices? No! That's the point where the cartoons come true, sadly...

(*) this small adverb might upset the followers of the FSM, but I don't care. Free speech, you know? ;-)

[General Barron 0]

What a load of rubbish. No, I'm not talking about General Barron's post...

Woah... that's a first!

Quote[/b] ]To generalize them in one category because of an outspoken faction, however, is really a shameful thing to do.

I agree here. Actually, I also find the cartoons offensive, because of the very fact that they are grouping all muslims into one boat. The few muslims I know are nothing at all like what is depicted. I cringe whenever I hear talk radio callers making the same generalization, for example. Let's not fall into the old trap of lumping the good in with the bad.

However, the important thing is that there is a faction of islam that is outspoken, that is violent, and that wants the rest of the world to obey their strict religious laws. I believe I have heard them referred to as "wahabists" or something similar. Members of this faction are the ones that make bomb threats, kill filmmakers, stone prostitutes and gays, plant IEDs, fly planes into buildings, etc. Unfortunately, they are also in control of the governments of some countries that would otherwise be insignificant were it not for their oil.

It is time for the world to wake up and realize this faction is very real, has been around for a long time, and is a very real threat to world peace. They want to reestablish the Glory of Islam as it was at the height of empire in the 8th C (Battle of Tours?), burkas and all. They want to kill, convert, or repress the rest of us, and they are actively working to take over countries like Israel, India, the Phillipines, Indonesia, Spain, France, and so on. It isn't one big centralized conspiracy, but rather a bunch of smaller organizations/individuals all working towards the same basic goal.

With each train or bus that is bombed; with each hijacked plane; with each murdered individual; I think the rest of the world wakes up a little. Let's hope we can wake up before we find ourselves in a state of constant war like Israel.

[EiZei 0]

The New Testament don't encourage people to violence. At least, that's what I know about it.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/nt.html

vs.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

[EiZei 0]

Missed this little gem here..

http://today.reuters.com/news....USA.xml

Quote[/b] ]

US sides with Muslims in cartoon dispute

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Washington on Friday condemned caricatures in European newspapers of the Prophet Mohammad, siding with Muslims who are outraged that the publications put press freedom over respect for religion.

By inserting itself into a dispute that has become a lightning rod for anti-European sentiment across the Muslim world, the United States could help its own battered image among Muslims.

"These cartoons are indeed offensive to the belief of Muslims," State Department spokesman Kurtis Cooper said in answer to a question. "We all fully recognize and respect freedom of the press and expression but it must be coupled with press responsibility. Inciting religious or ethnic hatreds in this manner is not acceptable."

[harley 3 1185 0]

What can I say; the State Department is full of morons.

American Muslims are in favour of free speech, whilst their Government would rather suck up to the oil-producing countries and condemn in part the very freedoms they live by.

Arrgh!

[kakagoegie 0]

The New Testament don't encourage people to violence. At least, that's what I know about it.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/cruelty/nt.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/int/nt.html

vs.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/int/long.html

I said that the new testament doesn't encourage people to violence. At that web site the new testament is quoted. I haven't read all these quotation, only all were about being punished by God. Maybe you understood me wrong, but I mean with violence things that happen on earth. Not violence in hell, heaven, walhallah etc.

I haven't read all quotations, but I didn't find a quotation telling people to kill or attack anybody else. That was the point I meant with non-violence.

[Nemesis6 0]

Saw that cartoon already Avon!

Anyway, the way out of this potential "crisis" is to have as many newspapers here showing them. At least them they'll hate us all equally, meaning that everything will be back to normal soon. Plus, as a bonus, I bet a lot of Arabs have learned a lot from this - They'll know what our flag looks like, both when stomping on it and burning it, and they will most likely know where our tiny country is now!

[Bordoy 0]

Lets all riot and burn flags!!

[denoir 0]

The really funny or perhaps sad thing is that the outraged European Muslims don't seem to realize is that the right to publish those cartoons equals the right for them to practice their religion. Should we follow their demands, that religious respect is more important than freedom of expression, then we'd be back with old-school European Christianity. With the burning of heretics and all.

Now I don't like those cartoons, or holocaust denials, or Christianity or Islam or any of Dostoyevsky's works and many other things. It should however not require much in the way of intelligence to realize that if they start banning some of the things you don't like that there is a great risk of them starting to ban things you actually do like.

Having said that, this situation is not good in more than one way. There has been a serious escalation in hostility and moderates on both sides of the debate are unwittingly joining the radicals.

It started with the cartoons, which are in no way representative of Denmark or Europe as a whole. It was a cheap provocation by a cheap newspaper. And it should have stayed that way.

Instead there was an absurd overreaction on the part of the Muslim community. Instead of ignoring it or (verbally) attacking the newspaper they went after European (western) values in a not-too-subtle way.

And the response was equally general. By their radical statements and attacks they managed to piss off most of Europe - including the vast majority who couldn't have cared less about any Mohamed cartoons. And the response has so far been anything but subtle as well - people and media has done everything they can to show the cartoons as much as possible, as a form of punishment for the initial overreaction.

This in turn of course results in more moderate Muslims getting fed up with 1)being on purpose insulted and 2)getting directly associated with the more intolerant group. And as a result they join the intolerant group.

So we get our vicious circle.

[IsthatyouJohnWayne 0]

'Free speech!' now 'shut up'!

Interesting.

Denoir-

Quote[/b] ]"PS, I'm a peace-loving hippie, as liberal and tolerant as humanly possible."

Hahah.

Supah-

Quote[/b] ]Outside of oil the middle east has nothing we in europe want nor need. Time to make work of developing alternative energy sources

Uh.. right. Well thank you for telling me what i want or need and thus encapsulating the idiocy (of some of the arguments) of this cartoon war. I suppose ill send those ME foodstuffs i just bought back. Wait i have some CDs of Middle eastern music too. Luckily i have learned i do not need these. Much better to be rid of that nasty foreign stuff. Let us build a wall made of 'mohammed bricks' to keep the nasty muslims, sorry, 'Islamists' out.

Im so happy to see that everyone is coming to their senses. Buy ammunition. War is inevitable. Lets go for it!