The Middle East part 2

[kavoven 4]

listen PPL, im from Israel...

I have to admit that my personal opinion concerning the whole middle east topic was not israel friendly, but slowly I'm understanding that it's quiet impossible to negotiate with those muslim nations............... It seems to me like their solution for everything is to kill it....

It's quiet hard for me, not to say "just leave them alone and let them kill each other", but it's also hard to see a peacefull way...

[mp_phonix 0]

about what the muslims in the world are doing because that muhamad picture in denemark. u see its hard to negotiate because they even dont believe in freedom of speech !!!

and where can i get that signiture with "freedom os speech - denmark we support u" stuff ?

PSSS***

yesterday a palastinian stabbed 5 pepole in a taxi in central israel, one of them was killed.****

anotther:

IDF soldier was light injured in a shooting "terror act" by some terrorist organization:

http://news.walla.co.il/?w=/9/854976

[Garcia 0]

Muslims can't make drawings...it's forbidden by their religion. I'm quite sure that means they can't make a drawing of anything...not a sheep, not a man and not jesus...

False

This morning, on the radio, a French satyrical drawer was telling a rather odd story. He went in Iran, visiting local drawers. He saw a draw presenting Jesus with a cellular phone, speaking, and next an iranian telling him not to speak so loudly as they were currently praying...

Arab Art Gallery

And they are rather skilled  

ooook...my religion teacher is speak BS then

And our religion book too actually...it said that Islam forbids that kind of drawing, and listed a lot of diffrent "workarounds" where they made a lion out of letters and stuff

Well, religion is a crappy subject anyway...and who belives teachers?

[Balschoiw 0]

Btw are you aware that the tone in this thread has deteriorated a lot of over the last pages ?

Some posts do get close to violate vital forum rules.

Maybe it would be ok to relax a bit and try to debate the issue factual and not continue the warpath some have chosen here.

We don´t have to behave like a bunch of fanatics, do we ?

[Ironsight 1]

Quote[/b] ]Protesting students of Jamia Milia Islamia University burn copies of an Indian weekend magazine, which published a photograph of a Koranic verse tattooed on a womans bare back, in New Delhi, India, Monday, Feb. 6, 2006. Riot police fired tear gas and water cannons Monday at hundreds of protesting students in the Indian capital, while a strike called by Islamic groups shut down the main city of Indian-controlled Kashmir. Both groups were protesting the publication of cartoons of the Prophet Muhammad in European newspapers. (AP Photo/Gurinder Osan)

So when are we going to burn Indian flags

[kakagoegie 0]

Maybe it would be a good idea to make a poll: Should the cartoons have been posted in the papers, or not?

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

"Vollhonk", lol, lang nicht mehr gehört aber genial es wieder über die Lippen zu schnalzen"

It is incredible how fast the fire spreads. As you say they are already calling for a Fatwa, making it religiously legal to kill the originator of the drawings. But that doesnt astound me.

However what is deeply frightening is the psychologie behind the demonstrations. Are the orthodox muslims realy only upset about these drawings?

I believe it was Freud who described this phenomenon as a "stamp collection". Example: An individual has a bad day and tiny anoying things happen to him basically ever minute, to the outside he stays calm but the inside he is filling up with anger. Then during the evening he finally explodes because of another tiny disaster that happened to him. He shouts, throws things around in his room, pulls his hair..and all the other people around him wonder, why this small accident that just happened to him can make him so angry. In other words, there is no balance between cause and physcologic effect. Some silly drawings in a silly danish newspaper and we see embassies being evacuated? Is that a balance of cause and effect? Definetly No!

So this thesis would teach us that the cause of the muslim anger must be hidden in the past. We need to look backward and count up all the things that could have made the muslims angry about europe`? Is there realy so much to complain about? I doubt it! So if there are no reasons to explode then Freuds theorie doesnt work. In other words, many of the demonstrators are angry because they simply want to speak their mind!

I rather believe that the Mullahs are to blame for it, they simply want to break the last barriers between occident and orient, between christianity and islam, using any occasion that serves!

The western voice is always interfering with the message they have for their people. And it troubles them to see how tempting western life is for their youth.That is why they call for and support these demonstrations. There would be no demonstrations without the Mullahs, it is far too organised and spreads too systematically, so there must be a network behind it!

In the end the world will definetly see a last cultural clash and it will be fought in europe, in the Middle East, in Asia and it will definetly take more than two decades.

[kakagoegie 0]

I rather believe that the Mullahs are to blame for it, they simply want to break the last barriers between occident and orient, between christianity and islam, using any occasion that serves!

This sounds logical. But I saw something on TV yesterday. There were Mullahs trying to stop the riots in Lebanon. But the people just didn't listen to him. Maybe these were only pretty liberal Mullahs, but I think it also has something to do with the people who were on the streets.

I just think they hate the entire western world.

Think about it. They are poor, are living in an unfree country. And of course there is Israel. The 'little demon' for almost every Muslim. I think the people are angry by themselves. The Mullahs just use that anger for their goals.

[LennyD 0]

....

And it troubles them to see how tempting western life is for their youth.That is why they call for and support these demonstrations. There would be no demonstrations without the Mullahs, it is far too organised and spreads too systematically, so there must be a network behind it!

....

Basicly that would be the center of the "problem". I personaly don't care if or to which god s.o. prayes...as long as there is respect for the man next to him. The islam (or better the way the extremists turn it) lacks this tolerance and equality. Every one unbelieving must die...that is the message behind it all.

The impact western lifestyle has on this way of thinking makes them so angry. In modern western society we have a historical minimum of racisim or discrimination (don't laugh...it is true!!. So this must be horror to a mental "neanderthal man". They want the world to be like they want it to... beating and discrimination of women, death penalty for the wrong cloths on the wrong day and the islam brought to every one (if necessary with force).

Isn't it similar to a very dark time in my country over half a decade ago? Sounds familiar to me

[Thunderbird 0]

Please avoid generalizing, people behind these riots are a bunch of ignorants deeply anchored in their beliefs, and most of them are influenced by radical imams, but this doesn't make all muslims terrorists and flag-burners, though, and the hatred against muslims should not increase, otherwise it would turn to 'despair'.

Best Regards

Thunderbird84

[mojo-jojo 0]

I have to admit that my personal opinion concerning the whole middle east topic was not israel friendly, but slowly I'm understanding that it's quiet impossible to negotiate with those muslim nations.

Same here. I said some pretty stupid things about the Israelis.

I was more focused on impressing others with my good intentions, rather than on what is actually happening down there.

[LennyD 0]

Please avoid generalizing, people behind these riots are a bunch of ignorants deeply anchored in their beliefs, and most of them are influenced by radical imams, but this doesn't make all muslims terrorists and flag-burners....

You are right, not every muslim is an evil madman wanting to clense all western from the globe...

But during the Nazi-reign in germany not every german was a jew-killing maniac.

Not doing anything against it is a form of guilt as well!!!

The problem is that the rest of the muslim world does not show that this way of protest is wrong. I don't mean the leaders of the muslim counsils telling the media "jea, violance is terrible....BUT these cartoons are blasphemy...". Why doesn't ONE of them tell us that even if it is hearting the muslims it still is the freedom of speach. The basic law in germany has this as one of the most important parts!!! Freedom of speech (or better pressfreedom) is one of the highest goods in europe...so EVERY one living here must accept it and defend it.

I have lots of muslim neighbours... why do these people go mad now and start calling for boycotts of the "dänisch bed-shop" and some newspapers here? As a european they should rather say: "hey, this isn't right, but it is their opinion and we have to accept it" ? A bloke just down the street got the "wrong" newspaper...s.o. put a dead rat in his postpox 2 nights ago. That is in my opinion nearly as radical as burnig down embassies.

What is the next step? Kutting his head of, 'cos he buys danish butter?...

I don't want to say every muslim is a bad human...that is wrong, silly and a sign of intollarance. But all i have seen of the islam lately is wrong, silly and intollarante. So what am i sopposed to think of it? We can only judge by what we see.... and i only see hate, rage and killing by these people...

[Balschoiw 0]

Quote[/b] ]Not doing anything against it is a form of guilt as well!!!

So you would be the one standing in front of a rolling mob and telling them to stop ? Sorry dude, but you may think that this is what people in question should do, but that´s really cowardly.

Quote[/b] ]The problem is that the rest of the muslim world does not show that this way of protest is wrong.

Moderate muslims are indeed trying to calm down the situation, but as you know pictures on TV sell better if they include something burning. Muslims feel disturbed by the way Mohammed was portrayed in those comics and that´s their simple right to feel offended. We cannot be the ones who determine what is offending to them or not.

Even moderate muslims are pissed by those comics but they don´t agree with the violence spread we see right now.

Basically it´s the governments of the countries in question that need to act. They need to be the ones, along with the moderate spiritual leaders, to calm down the situation and try to restore law and order.

But here comes the tricky part. They put themselves into the risk of being burned out of office if they conduct measures against their people. In countries like Egypt or Jordania where the political situation is kind of fragile they would risk loosing their head if they speak up against the riots as they would with such action turn against islam and therefore a majority of their people. Of course countries like Syria or Iran only fuel the fire and willingly heat up the situation. In Pakistan where the current prime minister has already a hard time staying in office he speaks up against those comics because he would be driven out of office by the mob who´s torching flags and embassies right now if he wouldn´t do so.

It´s blasphemy for Muslims and as long as governments and church are not separated in those countries you will get that reaction. What the last days have shown is that religious fanatics can use almost anything to start serious unrests.

I guess you don´t see how fragile the situation is right now. It´s very risky for everyone who speaks up today. Of course we have freedom of speech, BUT this freedom has to be used in respect to other religions and other people on this planet.

Just repeating "we have freedom of speech" all over and over will lead to nothing else than even bigger riots. Riots that can take place in your living room oneday. People in the middle east have a very much different temperament as we have in our comfortable living room chairs. It does not take much to set them on rage full scale as their primary living conditions are already bad. It just needs an ignitor and there you go.

I guess the same thing would happen if a group of people decides that it´s a great idea to wear swastikas in Jerusalem. It´s freedom of speech you know.

Do you think that they will be able to leave the city unharmed or do you think it´s likely they will be taken to the city morgue ?

Quote[/b] ]I have lots of muslim neighbours... why do these people go mad now and start calling for boycotts of the "dänisch bed-shop" and some newspapers here?

Have you talked to all of them ? It is as it is always. The ones who scream loudest have the smallest brains. That´s no muslim privilege only, we have the same nobrainers among us. They scream loud aswell these days...

Quote[/b] ]"hey, this isn't right, but it is their opinion and we have to accept it"

I assume that no european christian shares those intimacy with his religion as a lot of muslims do. You can´t be a "half-muslim" like you can be a "half - christ". If you have never been to an islamic country and participated in their daily life you will not understand that their believe is THE number one in their daily life. Now if some people come along and spit on their prophet they will react. They will react with the greates possible anger. Their religion is their life. If you spit on their religion you spit on their life.

Quote[/b] ]A bloke just down the street got the "wrong" newspaper...s.o. put a dead rat in his postpox 2 nights ago.

Yeah sure.

Quote[/b] ]We can only judge by what we see....

Yes and what I´ve seen are comics that make a joke of the spiritual godfather of the islamic countries. How stupid can one be to think that this will not cause riots ?

Freedom of speech comes along with responsibility to know where fun ends.

[Blake 0]

Quote[/b] ]Yes and what I´ve seen are comics that make a joke of the spiritual godfather of the islamic countries. How stupid can one be to think that this will not cause riots ?

Freedom of speech comes along with responsibility to know where fun ends.

Naturally it was a stupid move to publish these cartoons even though the article in which they were published was not a front-page cartoon strip found like in many newspapers.

And it was not an issue months ago until was drummed around the Middle-East by Danish muslim delegation which some people would find a treacherous act especially when they presented Arab governments cartoons that were fabricated. And Danish muslim nationals have even urged attacks on Danish troops in Iraq. Imagine it being any other sect of the society and legal cases would be certainly forthcoming but I don't believe that this is the case since Danish government is scared to do anything at the moment.

London metropolitan police also has shown unnatural negligence about recent demonstrations in London in which muslim demonstrators idolized July 7 terror attacks and were carrying murder-inciting posters. Again, imagine this being a neo-nazi rally - the whole bunch would have been locked before they even started. Now this wasn't done in fear of creating 'martyrs' but is law worth a damn if it is not treating people equally?

It's even more unfair now that journalists are supposed to triple-check everything they print from now on with knife on their throat, fearing for their lives that they'd publish something insulting to muslims. No, I'm not saying publishing rubbish pictures is a divine right and it should be gloated with. But I don't want to have Europe where self-censorship and

'intellectual dishonesty' in media prevails.

[der bastler 0]

The nationalist German doesn't care too, because it's the wrong German flag that is burning

ROFLMAO

Funny people, they burn their own flags. Rich, eh?

(I assume they actually buy the flags)

Yeah, nobody cares about a burning German flag - it's only a piece of cloth! As long as we keep our civil rights (including the already restricted right of free speech): who cares about a burning flag?

Speaking of the Middle East: What about Iran? Any bets? New inspections? War? Nuclear devastation?

(btw Vollhonk? I'd use "Vollpfosten" or "hirnfreier Trottel"...)

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

My prediction is war in late 2007 combined with a cultural clash and constant terorist strikes in europe. This war will last approx 15 years!

Being deadly serious!

[booradley60 0]

My prediction is war in late 2007...

Let us start a pool, shall we?

[Blake 0]

OK, lets add some indegriedents to conspiracy theories (excerpts from a net magazine):

- No demonstration takes place in Syria without Government approval, yet the embassy was torched. Why would they allow that? Well probably could be useful to get attention away from Rafik Hariri's (Lebanon's ex-premier) murder investigations.

- Muslim anger will certainly give Iran some backing in it's nuclear dispute. Iran also conveniently dramatized the crisis by cutting all trade deals with Denmark.

- Hamas, which won the Palestinian elections recently certainly won't be sorry this uproar and probably gets some boost to it's stance vs. international concern over it's victory.

- Israel has long claimed that Iran, Syria and Palestinian terror groups have strong links. By convenient coincidence, President of Iran met leadership of Hamas, Syria and Lebanon in January in Damascus. And this comic strip crisis began to emerge soon after that as the Danish muslim delegation was spreading information about it in the Mid-East.

[tariq 0]

Oh man, this is so depressing. As a Muslim, I am offended by images that insult any prophet (whether it be Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad, peace be upon them all). However, this is ridiculous. Burning the embassies of a country from which one individual decided to draw stupid pictures is crazy. I can't believe that these protestors are so incensed about this but not about their own corrupt governments. I mean, what the heck has Denmark ever done to Muslim countries? Although I live in the West, I can understand that situations are very tough in much of the Muslim world, but this anger is misplaced and seems to be hypocritical. To all of you who might have become further disillusioned with the state of Western-Islamic relations, here is one practicing Muslim who would like to continue a peaceful and rational dialogue. Not all of us who love our religion and our prophets are closed minded. I am saddened by the polarization towards hatred on both sides. Peace

[EiZei 0]

My prediction is war in late 2007 combined with a cultural clash and constant terorist strikes in europe. This war will last approx 15 years!

Being deadly serious!

They can't whoop-ass Israel so what could they do to us?

Anyways, don't think the danish muslim delegation are not guilty of treason as Denmark is not in a state of war. However, I can think of several Finnish criminal offences (Ethnic agitation (max 2 years), warmongering (1-10 years) and Violation of political freedom (max 2 years)) these guys might be guilty of. The danish law probably has something similar, the prosecutors just need to get creative.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoonprotests/story/0,,1703925,00.html

Quote[/b] ]

Iranian paper to run Holocaust cartoons

Robert Tait inTehran, Declan Walsh in Islamabad and Owen Bowcott

Tuesday February 7, 2006

The Guardian

Muslim protesters infuriated by cartoons depicting the prophet Muhammad raised the diplomatic stakes last night as Iran's best-selling newspaper announced it would retaliate by running images satirising the Holocaust.

The decision by the rightwing Hamshari daily to launch an international competition to find the most suitable caricatures came as demonstrators hurled firebombs and stones at the Danish embassy in Tehran and the Iranian government imposed a formal trade ban on Danish imports. Last night mobs were attempting to storm the Danish compound.

...

Farid Mortazavi, the paper's graphics editor, said the cartoons would be published to test the argument of western newspapers which have cited freedom of expression in printing the prophet Muhammad images.

"The western papers printed these sacrilegious cartoons on the pretext of freedom of expression, so let's see if they mean what they say and also print these Holocaust cartoons," Mr Mortazavi said.

Surely the blood will now flow on the streets and iranian embassies will be torched while our goverments pour fuel in the fires.. or not.

[tariq 0]

I thought I would provide a link to a site that provides some accurate information about Islam. Hopefully this will help people better differentiate between Islamic and un-Islamic practices.

http://muslim-canada.org/islam_is.html

[Espectro (DayZ) 0]

Oh man, this is so depressing. As a Muslim, I am offended by images that insult any prophet (whether it be Jesus, Moses, or Muhammad, peace be upon them all). However, this is ridiculous. Burning the embassies of a country from which one individual decided to draw stupid pictures is crazy. I can't believe that these protestors are so incensed about this but not about their own corrupt governments. I mean, what the heck has Denmark ever done to Muslim countries? Although I live in the West, I can understand that situations are very tough in much of the Muslim world, but this anger is misplaced and seems to be hypocritical. To all of you who might have become further disillusioned with the state of Western-Islamic relations, here is one practicing Muslim who would like to continue a peaceful and rational dialogue. Not all of us who love our religion and our prophets are closed minded. I am saddened by the polarization towards hatred on both sides. Peace

You are so right. As a danish im very happy to see that every muslims uphere take their distance to the riots in the middle-east.

The explanation is simple. Every muslim is very insulted by the drawings. In the western world, they give the oppinion by it in the media, and even try to suit the danish newspaper.

In the middleeast, people havent got the opportunity to speak up there mind. But now they finally have the right to show their oppinion on the streets, and they do it 10x what they should have done. Simply because they are also expressing rage against earlier insult from the west and their own government.

This "collaps" that happend couldnt be avoided. The two civilisations would clash together at any time anyway. The good thing is, that it happend now, and not 5 years from now so they would have gotten more angry.

As a danish, im saddened to see that some danes are getting a bit racist. Even I looks closer on muslims uphere now, checking if they are armed or they are upto some trouble. I have never had these fealings before, and it frightens me. The muslims living in the western world is truely the looser in this case.

[Nemesis6 0]

The only problem now is that it's not about the drawings anymore... I believe someone said it quite right on Danish TV, I think it went something like this -

"It's like a ball being kicked out into an open space, and everybody immediately wonders how they can use this to further their own agenda." Quite a lot is lost in translation. Especially with the whole "You killed Rafik Hariri" that Syria is rightfully getting blamed for.

[Albert Schweitzer 10]

They can't whoop-ass Israel so what could they do to us?

I dont mean Bushs "mission accomplished" style. I mean for how long are our troops in the Balkans now? Even in afghanistan its nearly 5 years.. 15 years is not that much

And concerning europe, I was talking about terorist strikes. Nothing is easier than to find an easy target here and not get caught!

[Balschoiw 0]

Interesting read:

Cartoon anger is a misrepresentation

Quote[/b] ]Western embassies in Middle Eastern cities have been torched. Angry crowds have marched in the streets of London carrying placards calling for beheadings and massacres.

Yet despite how it looks on television news, the response to the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad has mostly been non-violent so far.

There were no demonstrations at all in a sizeable number of Muslim countries. In Iran, Egypt, Pakistan and Iraq, the demonstrations passed off quietly.

There has been serious trouble in Gaza, Damascus and Beirut, but in each case, local tensions clearly boiled up and found their expression in this particular issue.

In Syria, such violence is so rare that some people have wondered whether the attacks on the Danish and Norwegian embassies might not have been provoked by government agents, in order to discredit the beleaguered Islamists there.

In Lebanon, the continuing tension between supporters of the Syrians and supporters of the Americans played a part in the violence in Beirut.

When a breakaway group started to attack a Christian church at Ashrafiya, a group of Muslim clerics did everything they could to stop them.

Delayed reaction

How did a series of not particularly well-drawn or funny cartoons, published on 30 September in a Danish newspaper, produce such anger in Europe and the Middle East four months later?

If anyone fanned the flames, it was not Osama Bin Laden.

Instead, it was the mild, distinctly moderate figure of Ahmed Aboul Gheit, the Foreign Minister of Egypt.

As early as November, he was protesting about the cartoons, and calling them an insult.

"Egypt," he said, "has confronted this disgraceful act and will continue to confront such insults."

Perhaps it was a convenient way for the Egyptian government to demonstrate some Islamic credentials while not attacking any of the countries which really matter to Egypt.

He raised the issue at various international meetings. Slowly the news filtered out to the streets.

Past reminders

There are various similarities with the case of Salman Rushdie's book The Satanic Verses.

That also took months to come to general attention in 1989.

It was only when Ayatollah Khomeini was told about the way the book dealt with the Prophet Muhammad that he issued his condemnation of it and his threat to Rushdie's life.

The demonstrations became increasingly violent.

Much the same arguments were used then as now, about where freedom of speech ends and gratuitous insults begin.

Militant secularists clashed on air and in print with militant Islamists, each talking past each other.

At one point, Rushdie recanted and asked for forgiveness. At least one of the book's translators seems to have been murdered.

But The Satanic Verses continued to make good money, and the British government asked Rushdie to pay part of the high cost of his own protection.

Eventually the threat faded, and he went to live in America.

Double standards

In 1989, when the Satanic Verses demonstrations were at their height, I was making my way across Afghanistan to Kabul, which was still in the hands of the pro-Soviet Communists.

My guides came from a group of Islamic mujahideen.

In a cave in the mountains outside the city, I was invited to meet a number of local elders who wanted to know why Britain, or any other Western country, would allow a book which seemed to be so insulting to Islam to be published.

In the chilly gloom of the cave, with a glass of tea and a plate of sugared mulberries in front of me, the magnificent old men with their turbans and beards filed in and sat down on the carpets, their AK-47s beside them.

I began with the quote - attributed to Voltaire - about hating what other people say but fighting to the death for their right to say it.

I told them that the West wanted people to be free to express themselves as they wanted - this, I said, was why Europe and the US had supported the Afghan mujahideen against the Soviet invaders.

They nodded politely, but I could see they were not convinced.

Why, one of the elders asked again and again, did we allow the Prophet Muhammad to be insulted when we knew how much distress it would cause individual Muslims?

He had a point; after all, a number of European countries would not allow a deeply anti-Semitic book to be published, and have made it a criminal offence to deny the Holocaust.

Why should it not also be illegal to insult the Prophet?

Yet insulting and openly anti-Semitic cartoons and articles often appear in the press in Muslim countries, and we in the West rightly find that deeply offensive.

And when extremists march through the streets, applaud bloodthirsty crimes like the attacks of 11 September and 7 July, that is no less insulting than publishing unfunny and deliberately goading cartoons.

We must not imagine this has the support of the great mass of British Muslims.

Quite the contrary: the groups with their ill-spelt placards are just an unrepresentative, repudiated fringe.

In much the same way, we should not think the entire Muslim world is in flames about it.

But we must understand that many Muslims around the world feel increasingly beleaguered.

Increasing that sense will do nothing to help anyone.

Imo the impression the muslim world got over the last years is that they are played with by the west. Iraq´s invasion was based on false accusations and a lot of muslims had to die for that. Noone has been punished for that so far. GW and Blair still grin in their offices and Bush and Rumsfeld already declared that the strongest goal over the next years is to prevent an islamic empire. Radical christians in the US toot their horns aswell and the generalizations from the US government concerning terrorists and muslims were not contributing either. An image was created that labelled all muslims evil. This was done to raise support and fear to justify the military and domestic actions from and within the US. The actions we see today are just the echo of those PR campaigns and the military actions in the middle east.